Daz Best workflow for multiple renders in the same scene

toyohew900

Newbie
Dec 12, 2020
24
114
Hey, all. If I'm working on a VN scene with many renders in the same location, what is the best way to set this up? I'll sometimes need different lighting, poses, and camera settings for each. I can save each ready-to-render shot as a Daz Scene, but that leads to problems. If I decide for a later shot that the sofa in the background needs to move a few feet, I need to make the same change in every other saved shot. I also have tons of scene files to manage.

Should I instead be using the timeline or is there something else I'm missing? I want to save my progress with each render so I can go back and fix issues, and ideally complete multiple prepped renders in sequence. How exactly are people doing this? Every tutorial video I see online ends with a single render, so I can't find any info on this part of the process.
 

Sunday95

New Member
May 15, 2018
4
1
Should I instead be using the timeline or is there something else I'm missing?
I use the timeline for that exact purpose in Blender (where you can key just about anything), so unless there are limitations in DAZ concerning what you can or can't key I don't see why not.
 

Nicke

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Jul 2, 2017
1,107
2,700
I save every render as its own scene.

If I really need to move an object, I usually save it as a scene subset and merge it into the other scenes. The annoying part of this is the load times, depending on how many characters are in the scene.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GNVE

Saint_RNG

Member
Apr 2, 2018
109
41
Personally, here are the steps I follow:
  1. Creation of the complete environment (including render settings) in an empty scene, then saving it as a scene subset,
  2. Addition of my characters (created, dressed and saved beforehand as scene subsets) in the scene with my environment,
  3. Save as scene mySceneName1,
  4. Do all the posing (+ add lighting if necessary) then save,
  5. Make the render and if I like the result, save it,
  6. Save again as scene with the name mySceneName2,
  7. Now the current scene is mySceneName2,
  8. I can make all the pose changes I want and then I repeat all the same steps (save, then render, then save as, etc...).
 
  • Like
Reactions: GNVE

Turning Tricks

Rendering Fantasies
Game Developer
Apr 9, 2022
811
1,806
I agree with most of the above, with the exception of using the Timeline to track stuff. In my (admittedly limited) experience, the Timeline function in DAZ is terrible. It's not intuitive, cumbersome and almost impossible to control, especially if you use it and then want to continue using that scene DUF for anything else. I use the timeline a lot for simulating dForce objects and yet, even when I only move the two objects in my simulation (figure with clothes and the plane or object it is meant to interact with) I find the timeline tracks poses and movements for almost everything else in your scene. So when you try and reverse something, shit starts moving around on it's own. Also, when you try and clear an animation from an object, the damn thing will revert to whatever the hell it was prior to opening the timeline. Same goes if you try and reduce the timeline to just 1 frame. Everything in your scene will move to some pre-recorded position. What they desperately need is a big red OFF button that just clears all keyframes from the timeline and leaves the scene as is.

Timeline rant aside (I'm trying to learn animation today.. can you tell? lol) .. Here are my scene managing tips.

1. I save scenes a lot, but 20-100mb files tend to add up, after you have made a couple of thousand renders, so I can't save every little thing over and over again;

2. I use Excel a LOT! I keep a worksheet for each project and on that sheet I track each render I do, including the scene DUF filename, the camera I used and any special settings I tried.

3. Still on Excel... one thing I do that is a life saver, is I have sheets for all my characters, with complete descriptions of every morph, asset and texture I used to create them. This has saved me several times, as DAZ can easily screw character morphs up, when you get rogue stuff interacting and you don't notice it right away. When i have that happen, I can easily rebuild my characters from scratch using the Excel sheets I made for them. Takes just five or ten minutes.

4. I tend to make one complete scene base DUF, with no characters but all other assets and lighting installed. That's my quarantine to build from down the road, when I invariably mess up a scene.

5. I usually lock all cameras in the 6 main axis. I lost track of how many times I accidentally moved a camera when i was in a hurry posing shit. When you have a fast GPU and render on the fly, this isn't as much of an issue, but when you use layers like I have and need camera's dead on for spot renders, it's a must. Just be aware, that if you lock cameras you can't put them in a group with other stuff without messing them up. That's because in a group they revert to a relative position within that group, instead of an absolute position and because they are locked, this tends to throw them all out of whack. If you want to group them, make sure to position them correctly first, then group them and only then lock them, after they are in the group.

6. POSE PRESETS!!!!! Use them.. know them ... live them! lol. Honestly, I'm just discovering how amazing they are. They are almost zero space (like 15kb's each) so you can have thousands of them saved. But they allow you to quickly rebuild a scene when you have messed things up, or to go back and re-shoot things. Another fun thing I do with them, is for when i make alternate versions of the same scene. I save the poses in one version and then apply them to another version, with different characters. Some people think you can't use a male pose on a female or vise versa, but you can... just like you can apply a pose made with a massive giant and put it on a tiny spinner G8F. You just have to tweak the small movements to adjust it afterwards.

7. You can Pose Preset anything! So if you have a three point lighting system, you can save the poses for those lights in one scene and then move them and save the second pose for something else in the same scene. That way, you can easily re-use lights you adjusted for temp, luminance and color, etc. You can also save the camera and lighting as a Scene Subset.

8. In your example of the couch moving thing.. realistically, the DUF is just a snapshot of your scene as is. So if you need to move the couch, you'll have to do it in every scene you saved a separate DUF for. But that's kind of meaningless, if you made the render already... in that case, just go back, laod the DUF, move the couch and Spot Render the fix and apply it to your original Raw renders. I do that for things like facial expressions, eye blinking or minor movents of a character. Make the inital full screen render than just spot render the changes.

9. With the above point in mind, the easiest way to generate new renders for any scene is to just add a camera to your existing scenes. So if Joe and Jane are talking, take several camera angles. You might not use all of them, but it's a much easier and faster way to drive up render count and avoid dialogue where the same render is on screen for like several pages of text.

Sorry for the novel.. I haven't had much time online lately and I am catching up on posting, lol.
 

toyohew900

Newbie
Dec 12, 2020
24
114
Thank you to everyone. It's good to know I wasn't missing something really obvious.

One note for Turning Tricks, check out Airtable. It's like a cloud-based excel on steroids. You can create records like you normally would, add images, and even view your records as cards. I have a database of my characters that's color-coded and has a handy picture of each with their record.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Turning Tricks

GNVE

Active Member
Jul 20, 2018
635
1,118
Since Turning Tricks workflow is so similar to mine I just highjack his post and add on my stuff.
1. I save scenes a lot, but 20-100mb files tend to add up, after you have made a couple of thousand renders, so I can't save every little thing over and over again;
I agree. Each panel in your game or whatever should be saved separately. You do not want to remake a dozen images because something happened in the final render or you noticed something weird going on.
Looking at my scenes they are more in the 1 - 30 range or so. Yeah there are some in the 30-100 range but they are the exception. Though they seem to have increased over time.
4. I tend to make one complete scene base DUF, with no characters but all other assets and lighting installed. That's my quarantine to build from down the road, when I invariably mess up a scene.
yup same goes for characters. I have a base (nude with tatoos/piercing or jewlery they'd never take off). daily base (nude with normal daily makeup) and various outfit variants I need. But be sure to remove the tonemapper and environment options nodes from the scene view before saving or all the hard work you did with the environment was for naught. (This didn't use to be the case but Daz hacked in Filament and since then this has been an annoying issue.)
Also I use filestructure extensively. It's hard to find anything with a few hundred DUF files in a single map (ask me how I know...)
5. I usually lock all cameras in the 6 main axis. I lost track of how many times I accidentally moved a camera when i was in a hurry posing shit.
YES YES YES THIS! Always start with locking your camera after you place it. It is so easy to forget you have a camera selected rather than perspective view. Even worse is that Daz has an annoying bug that you might be typing in a search bar but because you hovered over the wrong spot the search bar isn't selected anymore and some letters also move the camera. Again happened so fucking often. And yes I did delete those keybindings but they somehow always revert back after some time.
6. POSE PRESETS!!!!! Use them.. know them ... live them! lol. Honestly, I'm just discovering how amazing they are. They are almost zero space (like 15kb's each) so you can have thousands of them saved. But they allow you to quickly rebuild a scene when you have messed things up, or to go back and re-shoot things. Another fun thing I do with them, is for when i make alternate versions of the same scene. I save the poses in one version and then apply them to another version, with different characters. Some people think you can't use a male pose on a female or vise versa, but you can... just like you can apply a pose made with a massive giant and put it on a tiny spinner G8F. You just have to tweak the small movements to adjust it afterwards.
Yeah but be discerning as well. Unfortunately a lot of poses are more or less the same. Especially modelling oriented ones are dime a dozen. You do not need 10 girl reclining sexily poses. It makes it impossible to find the ones you actually need.
There are also a lot of low quality ones. (Poses should not adjust eyes, expression and preferably feet positions). My advice would be to go with Z's stuff. It's high quality has a great variation (very little repeats) and usually splits poses in top and bottom so you can mix and match. or have a jumping off point.
Lastly avoid expression packs (with one or two exceptions). They are useless in my opinion. You do not need a dozen variations of 'smiling' I hardly use them and they just clog up the slider menu making it hard to find the stuff I actually want. Unfortunately it is almost impossible to do that.
8. In your example of the couch moving thing.. realistically, the DUF is just a snapshot of your scene as is. So if you need to move the couch, you'll have to do it in every scene you saved a separate DUF for. But that's kind of meaningless, if you made the render already... in that case, just go back, laod the DUF, move the couch and Spot Render the fix and apply it to your original Raw renders. I do that for things like facial expressions, eye blinking or minor movents of a character. Make the inital full screen render than just spot render the changes.
Also if you do point 4 of Turning Tricks post you almost never have to do this. My scenes are prebuilt and I've rendered them a dozen times with and without characters just to make sure I'm happy with them and they don't have floating furniture or whatever. I'd say it happens like 1% of the time I need to go back and change stuff. Usually it is lighting related because of forgetting to remove the default lighting with the characters (thanks again for that change Daz...)
9. With the above point in mind, the easiest way to generate new renders for any scene is to just add a camera to your existing scenes. So if Joe and Jane are talking, take several camera angles. You might not use all of them, but it's a much easier and faster way to drive up render count and avoid dialogue where the same render is on screen for like several pages of text.
And with the man fridays render queue you can render all visible camera's overnight so you don't have to sit there changing the camera over and over again.
 

Saint_RNG

Member
Apr 2, 2018
109
41
Daz has an annoying bug that you might be typing in a search bar but because you hovered over the wrong spot the search bar isn't selected anymore and some letters also move the camera.
This... fucking nightmare... I think the worst thing is that it's not counted as an "action" by Daz, so you can't even revert it...
 
  • Sad
Reactions: GNVE

MissFortune

I Was Once, Possibly, Maybe, Perhaps… A Harem King
Respected User
Game Developer
Aug 17, 2019
4,571
7,556
You're over complicating it, OP. Make a base scene and save that to go back to it later (if you'll need it later, that is.). Then work on scene 1 and save it > Ctrl + Shift + S > name it to scene_name2 > work on that scene > repeat. If you need to fix something in the background, then use a spot render to render that portion of the image.

It'd work this way regardless of the software being used. There's no real magic pill to get around it, but the above is probably the best way to go about it.

This... fucking nightmare... I think the worst thing is that it's not counted as an "action" by Daz, so you can't even revert it...
Try Shift + K, or changing the keys used for it Window > Workspace > Customize. The former worked for me, though. Worst case, you can lock the parameters for the camera being used, which is kind of a hassle, but it works.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Saint_RNG

Turning Tricks

Rendering Fantasies
Game Developer
Apr 9, 2022
811
1,806
Yeah but be discerning as well. Unfortunately a lot of poses are more or less the same. Especially modelling oriented ones are dime a dozen. You do not need 10 girl reclining sexily poses. It makes it impossible to find the ones you actually need.
There are also a lot of low quality ones. (Poses should not adjust eyes, expression and preferably feet positions). My advice would be to go with Z's stuff. It's high quality has a great variation (very little repeats) and usually splits poses in top and bottom so you can mix and match. or have a jumping off point.
Lastly avoid expression packs (with one or two exceptions). They are useless in my opinion. You do not need a dozen variations of 'smiling' I hardly use them and they just clog up the slider menu making it hard to find the stuff I actually want. Unfortunately it is almost impossible to do that.
The pose presets I am talking about are all ones I did myself. I agree that 99% of the pose and expression packs out there are useless. Not only are they made for default Gen characters, but many times, they are made by people who - in my opinion - have never met real people, lol. So .. plastic?

To keep track of your own poses, it's a lot easier then navigating the thousands of pre-built ones you have under your Pose tab. I just save them in custom folders for each character and then describe them... (Content Library --> My Library --> Poses ---> Character... etc) My file names are like... "MC s024 (scene 24) group hug".

Oh, toyohew900 , one other trick that would be very helpful when using multiple characters, is to control everyone's EYES! So many VN's out there have 4K renders that look amazing, but the characters seem dead, or like mannequins at least, because the dev didn't pose the eyes.

The way I do this is to create a null in each characters head... generally between the eyes, behind the nose. Parent that null to the head so when you pose the character, it stays in place. Then when you pose the other character interacting with that one, select each eye, and then POINT AT -> the null. That way the eye looks at the other character properly.

This works very well. Also, if you are doing a POV shot, try not to pose the eyes looking directly at the camera. Use a null and point them slightly up and to one side of the camera center.

There's a bug in DAZ using nulls though. Sometimes, the eyes "forget" where the null is, so always do a test render, and if the eyes wandered off, go back, select the POINT AT again and pick NONE, then select again and point at Null. That will reset it.
 
  • Like
  • Red Heart
Reactions: toyohew900 and GNVE

GNVE

Active Member
Jul 20, 2018
635
1,118
The pose presets I am talking about are all ones I did myself. I agree that 99% of the pose and expression packs out there are useless. Not only are they made for default Gen characters, but many times, they are made by people who - in my opinion - have never met real people, lol. So .. plastic?
That's great but also a large time investment (if your starting from the A-pose). The packs are a good starting off point usually. (If you keep all I said above in mind).
Oh, toyohew900 , one other trick that would be very helpful when using multiple characters, is to control everyone's EYES! So many VN's out there have 4K renders that look amazing, but the characters seem dead, or like mannequins at least, because the dev didn't pose the eyes.
Agree the eyes covey a lot of emotion. (especially when combined with a head tilt) and make or break a render. Looking at the camera is not a bad thing perse though. It can convey intimacy or dominance. Just use it with caution.
 

Turning Tricks

Rendering Fantasies
Game Developer
Apr 9, 2022
811
1,806
That's great but also a large time investment (if your starting from the A-pose). The packs are a good starting off point usually. (If you keep all I said above in mind).
That's why I have started to save them all. You spend ages getting a pose just right, so save it. Down the road, you can suddenly go "Aha! I have a pose close to that.." and that gets you 80% there.

Speaking about posing... you can waste a lot of time trying to pose a character, only to realize that some part of their body is in a not natural position, and that was throwing your effect off. The shoulder is a perfect example of this... if it's in some exaggerated position, you will never get the arm to pose naturally.

So I like to zero things before I start. Not the whole body, but just the area I am focused on. So, for a hand as an example, I'll right-click the hand in the scene pane and select "Select all children". That will put all the bones of the hand down in your Parameters tab. Shift-click the whole list to select them, then hit the hamburger icon and select Zero --> Selected Items and the hand will now be at zero. When you get used to this, it's so much faster than looking for a zero pose in the pose tab or moving things manually.

Also, try using the Pose Control options under the Character' main tab. You can pick various parts like the hands and head and eyes. That get's you 3/4 of the way to where you want the pose. So, for that hand example... when it's at zero, go to your Genesis Character --> Pose Controls --> Hands -->Right and move the Right Hand Grasp slider and the hand will pose in a very natural looking grasp. Then you can just tweak each finger for the final amount.

It's definitely a skill that takes time to get fast at, but I am at the point now where I can zip around and pose things very fast. A lot faster than trying to make a stock DAZ store pose work.