VN Ren'Py A Wife and Mother [P2 v0.225 + P1 v0.152] [Lust & Passion]

[Dr.SigmundFap]

You link doesn't work.

But that said, I get the point. L&P has never been able to reconcile his meandering style with his "goal" of speeding up development. If anything, it's getting worse.

Hmmm, I just clicked on the link, and it worked for me, but here's the screenshot of the response. I will post the link again.

Pg. 1857
https://f95zone.to/threads/a-wife-and-mother-v0-115-lust-passion.5944/post-3931853

Spoiler: Quality vs Quantity

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[GingerSweetGirl]

Hmmm, I just clicked on the link, and it worked for me, but here's the screenshot of the response. I will post the link again.

Pg. 1857
https://f95zone.to/threads/a-wife-and-mother-v0-115-lust-passion.5944/post-3931853

Spoiler: Quality vs Quantity

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

That time the link worked.

How utterly defensive of him. However, I'll give him one point, I don't personally feel that there are redundant renders. Could he cut some of them? Sure. But in terms of the numbers, I don't think we have a huge problem with him making bloated updates. The bigger problem is that each render takes him far too long. As he says, he's fastidious and that's killing the pacing of the updates. It's not necessarily that he has too many renders, it's that he has too many renders while refusing to compromise on even the smallest details. On top of that, the decision to upscale to 1080p was a mistake because it further slows everything down.

But all of this kinda ignores the nagging question. Even if he's making too many renders at too high a quality, does that explain needing 90+ days? If we assume 500 renders over 90 days, that's 5.55 renders a day. Does that seem like a lot? Is this just a bad combination of a guy who is uncompromising and also doesn't put in enough time?

 

[Talcum Powder]

In terms of dialogue it isn't bad, I get what L&P is trying to do.

The inner monologue though, is too much.

Yup. The dialogue has generally always leaned towards being a bit stiff which is something like two-parts character trait and one part translation, but the inner monologues are too frequent, drone on, and are damn near robotic which, if intentional, makes Sophia ... I dunno, I hope it's just a result of too literal a translation and dearth of common English/American colloquialisms.

 

[GingerSweetGirl]

Yup. The dialogue has generally always leaned towards being a bit stiff which is something like two-parts character trait and one part translation, but the inner monologues are too frequent, drone on, and are damn near robotic which, if intentional, makes Sophia ... I dunno, I hope it's just a result of too literal a translation and dearth of common English/American colloquialisms.

I really noticed this problem during the sauna scene in the last update. I account for it as 60% language barrier and 40% weak story telling. L&P has a good concept for a story, but he doesn't seem like a natural storyteller and the language barrier makes everything worse.

 

[Talcum Powder]

I'll give him one point, I don't personally feel that there are redundant renders. Could he cut some of them? Sure. But in terms of the numbers, I don't think we have a huge problem with him making bloated updates. The bigger problem is that each render takes him far too long.

IMHO you've got this completely backwards - the set up and quality of the renders is what sets AWAM above most everything else on the site. What kills it is the dialogue and inner monologues are clunky and inefficient. Virtually every block of text gets its own render, which is great, but some of the blocks of text are just minuscule in terms of understanding a character or relationship or driving story/plot.

And of course everything where Dylan is the POV is a complete and utter waste of time. I am in no way interested in L&P's version of the inner monologue of an 18-year old, that's what the other 98% of games on this site are for. He's horny? Wow, color me surprised. He's jealous (or not jealous)? I'd rather see the manifestation of jealousy and then the extent to which Sophia recognizes it as jealousy and then her reaction - a more interesting path to explore for certain.

Instead of letting us decide if Dylan gets jealous why not let us decide if Sophia thinks it is jealousy and then how to respond to it. Imagine, the option is for Sophia to provoke Dylan's jealousy by openly flirting with other boys or back off those flirtations and tend to his wounded ego or work with him on opening up to the possibility that there's a way for everyone to get involved in the fun.

Same amount of story/character options with the huge benefit that there's much less time spent in a teenager's head.

But all of this kinda ignores the nagging question. Even if he's making too many renders at too high a quality, does that explain needing 90+ days? If we assume 500 renders over 90 days, that's 5.55 renders a day. Does that seem like a lot? Is this just a bad combination of a guy who is uncompromising and also doesn't put in enough time?

Yes, too many renders taking too much time each does, exactly, explain why 90+ days. This is not a bad combination of uncompromising and not enough time spent, it's the result of a developer who doesn't have someone refining the script before storyboarding and making scenes. Self editing is incredibly difficult because sometimes the line you think is the best is actually the problem.

 

[Talcum Powder]

I really noticed this problem during the sauna scene in the last update. I account for it as 60% language barrier and 40% weak story telling. L&P has a good concept for a story, but he doesn't seem like a natural storyteller and the language barrier makes everything worse.

Yup yup and more yup. I think for me it was the latest shower scene, but yeah.

 

[Deleted member 2183629]

.

 

[GingerSweetGirl]

So Talcum Powder , if you agree that these updates are taking too long, where do you suggest that L&P makes cuts to decrease production time?

 

[Talcum Powder]

So Talcum Powder , if you agree that these updates are taking too long, where do you suggest that L&P makes cuts to decrease production time?

The script should be pored over and heavily scrutinized. I've been playing with an edit to the script that shortens things a bit but I haven't gone into wholesale cuts as of yet. Reason is I'm working in the .rpy script file so drastic changes could cause breaks or put text with the wrong image. If I had a version without all the renpy and python commands it would be smoother sailing.

And, cut everything with Dylan's POV.

 

[Talcum Powder]

I'm not suggesting the whole thing be gutted, I'm just looking at a hypothetical 10-15% reduction in the number of text blocks while getting the same, or nearly the same, amount of information across.

 

[GingerSweetGirl]

The script should be pored over and heavily scrutinized. I've been playing with an edit to the script that shortens things a bit but I haven't gone into wholesale cuts as of yet. Reason is I'm working in the .rpy script file so drastic changes could cause breaks or put text with the wrong image. If I had a version without all the renpy and python commands it would be smoother sailing.

And, cut everything with Dylan's POV.

As a whole, I agree that the script needs to be tightened up. I think the nursing home side-job can be cut immediately and nothing would be lost. I also think characters like the hair dresser and her daughter, and others, could be cut immediately and it would improve the game. But all that said, until L&P gets control over his renders, he'll just pour the time into images that take too long. We could cut the game's story to the bone, and he would still take 90 days rendering images. As Apollodore says, L&P can get lost in the details- and that doesn't help anything. I agree with you that the quality of the images is top notch, but that can only go just so far and when "short" updates are taking 90+ days, there's a problem.

 

[sept0342]

You must be registered to see the links

I just wanted to let you know why these 1/3 day updates take the time they take.

1) First of all only the first 4 events of the current 0.130 update have already 460 renders. With the Aiden and Sophia/Dylan event we will probably got around 650 renders. Which would be more than 95% of my updates yet!
2) A lot of new places and clothes.
3) Very complex and elaborate light settings and scene adjustments. The work I put into the scenes is far more intense than earlier! Sometimes I need more than 30 minutes only to adjust the lighting of one single render until it looks nice enough for me!
4) Story and scene writing, which many completely underestimate!

I know I wanted to release quicker updates by releasing 3 updates per game day. But this also depends on how enormous and importang these events of the game day third are. I think the only way to release an update every 2 month is not by dividing the game days but just by releasing an update every 2 month doesn't matter how many events are included. But the problem could be here that some people who're following particular storylines maybe wouldn't get any event to play at all. Plus if something comes between a month the update would be especially short. I don't know if you want that.
Nut on the other hand you will get some really hot scenes in the next update!
Anyway, I just started with the "Aiden event" and there will be a new nice teaser very soon.

 

[L&P's Father-in-Law]

That time the link worked.

How utterly defensive of him. However, I'll give him one point, I don't personally feel that there are redundant renders. Could he cut some of them? Sure. But in terms of the numbers, I don't think we have a huge problem with him making bloated updates. The bigger problem is that each render takes him far too long. As he says, he's fastidious and that's killing the pacing of the updates. It's not necessarily that he has too many renders, it's that he has too many renders while refusing to compromise on even the smallest details. On top of that, the decision to upscale to 1080p was a mistake because it further slows everything down.

But all of this kinda ignores the nagging question. Even if he's making too many renders at too high a quality, does that explain needing 90+ days? If we assume 500 renders over 90 days, that's 5.55 renders a day. Does that seem like a lot? Is this just a bad combination of a guy who is uncompromising and also doesn't put in enough time?

That's exactly my point.

And if you want to know if all renders are needed, you can just check the images folder as thumbnail and youll see plenty of renders that are so similar that you will only see the differences if you open the image.

In each 500 renders, a third are just a little eyebrow raise, a look etc. All stuff he could patch in later as some sort of DLC/QOL upgrade.

 

[Talcum Powder]

So I couldn't help myself and found a very simple example:
Dylan only swimsuit photoshoot. Look at the frame when Dylan says
and then
Dylan has moved about three inches to his left (right in frame), the bag is rotated slightly. So L&P didn't actually move the characters (at least, not Sam), but instead moved the camera slightly closer to Sophia's shoulder. Why is this worth the effort? Honestly, did anyone notice and think, well the scene is moving ahead quite nicely now, so glad he didn't recycle that render from three lines of dialogue ago.

 

[GingerSweetGirl]

You must be registered to see the links

I just wanted to let you know why these 1/3 day updates take the time they take.

1) First of all only the first 4 events of the current 0.130 update have already 460 renders. With the Aiden and Sophia/Dylan event we will probably got around 650 renders. Which would be more than 95% of my updates yet!
2) A lot of new places and clothes.
3) Very complex and elaborate light settings and scene adjustments. The work I put into the scenes is far more intense than earlier! Sometimes I need more than 30 minutes only to adjust the lighting of one single render until it looks nice enough for me!
4) Story and scene writing, which many completely underestimate!

I know I wanted to release quicker updates by releasing 3 updates per game day. But this also depends on how enormous and importang these events of the game day third are. I think the only way to release an update every 2 month is not by dividing the game days but just by releasing an update every 2 month doesn't matter how many events are included. But the problem could be here that some people who're following particular storylines maybe wouldn't get any event to play at all. Plus if something comes between a month the update would be especially short. I don't know if you want that.
Nut on the other hand you will get some really hot scenes in the next update!
Anyway, I just started with the "Aiden event" and there will be a new nice teaser very soon.

1. 650 renders. Is he fucking insane? He says this like it's a good thing!
2. We're blaming clothes now?
3. If you need more than 30 minutes to only adjust the lighting of one single render, your priorities are absolutely fucked.
4. This isn't a Meereenese Knot, you aren't writing the next Game of Thrones or Godfather. Keep things in perspective.

 

[Deleted member 2183629]

.

 

[Old Dog]

1. 650 renders. Is he fucking insane? He says this like it's a good thing!
2. We're blaming clothes now?
3. If you need more than 30 minutes to only adjust the lighting of one single render, your priorities are absolutely fucked.
4. This isn't a Meereenese Knot, you aren't writing the next Game of Thrones or Godfather. Keep things in perspective.

So much for being smaller than the last update.
I wish he would stop with what seems(lighting) like bragging and stop making excuses about updates ie be it a full day/50% day or a 1/3rd day just get on with the fucking update

 

[Jansen]

You must be registered to see the links

I just wanted to let you know why these 1/3 day updates take the time they take.

1) First of all only the first 4 events of the current 0.130 update have already 460 renders. With the Aiden and Sophia/Dylan event we will probably got around 650 renders. Which would be more than 95% of my updates yet!
2) A lot of new places and clothes.
3) Very complex and elaborate light settings and scene adjustments. The work I put into the scenes is far more intense than earlier! Sometimes I need more than 30 minutes only to adjust the lighting of one single render until it looks nice enough for me!
4) Story and scene writing, which many completely underestimate!

I know I wanted to release quicker updates by releasing 3 updates per game day. But this also depends on how enormous and importang these events of the game day third are. I think the only way to release an update every 2 month is not by dividing the game days but just by releasing an update every 2 month doesn't matter how many events are included. But the problem could be here that some people who're following particular storylines maybe wouldn't get any event to play at all. Plus if something comes between a month the update would be especially short. I don't know if you want that.
Nut on the other hand you will get some really hot scenes in the next update!
Anyway, I just started with the "Aiden event" and there will be a new nice teaser very soon.

The only line I have my focus on is:
"Nut on the other hand you will get some really hot scenes in the next update!"

 

[Old Dog]

The only line I have my focus on is:
"Nut on the other hand you will get some really hot scenes in the next update!"

Your definition of hot and the devs definition of hot will be completely different

 

[L&P's Father-in-Law]

You must be registered to see the links

I just wanted to let you know why these 1/3 day updates take the time they take.

1) First of all only the first 4 events of the current 0.130 update have already 460 renders. With the Aiden and Sophia/Dylan event we will probably got around 650 renders. Which would be more than 95% of my updates yet!
2) A lot of new places and clothes.
3) Very complex and elaborate light settings and scene adjustments. The work I put into the scenes is far more intense than earlier! Sometimes I need more than 30 minutes only to adjust the lighting of one single render until it looks nice enough for me!
4) Story and scene writing, which many completely underestimate!

I know I wanted to release quicker updates by releasing 3 updates per game day. But this also depends on how enormous and importang these events of the game day third are. I think the only way to release an update every 2 month is not by dividing the game days but just by releasing an update every 2 month doesn't matter how many events are included. But the problem could be here that some people who're following particular storylines maybe wouldn't get any event to play at all. Plus if something comes between a month the update would be especially short. I don't know if you want that.
Nut on the other hand you will get some really hot scenes in the next update!
Anyway, I just started with the "Aiden event" and there will be a new nice teaser very soon.

This tells me he is here reading the forum and people's comments.

L&P this is quite simple:

• Everyone understands that:
  • You need a lot of renders to tell your story
  • You need plenty of dialogue to get the full story across
  • You need to make new environments on almost all updates (if not all)
  • These things take time and make this VN standout from the rest

• Issues
  1. Slow update pacing (compared to what is still left of the story, do you see yourself working on this in 4/5 years?)
  2. When you finish this this will be a cool looking VN/Story, not a "game", we can only assume the porn game thing is going to evolve in the next years.
  3. Too many branches for you to think about and finish
  4. Redundant renders (they look great but they will slow your work down)
  5. It's not getting better

• Solutions (taking into account that you want to reserve the rendering for yourself)
  • For 4) Render less, reuse same images in a scene for instance and then at the end of each .1, release a QOL update which replaces those "placeholders".
  • For 3) This is story related so that's up to you but be careful not to fork stories even more.
  • For 2) Time to update this VN to a game and this one is easy. Just hire a dev to add things we see on other games (Social Media, Collectibles, Blink Actions/Perks ), he'll only need your renpy code so won't delay you on rendering.
  • For 1) Recruit someone to do all the environments you want. All it takes is for you to choose the base environments and then when it gets back to you you'll have it 95% done. Tweak it as you want for an hour or two and thats it.

These solutions will make the development times better without touching your own rendering times and will also provide replayability + game-like mechanics.

Regarding the time based updates (each 2 months) it's probably for the best. I didn't agree with it at first because it made no sense cutting through an event but given that when you start a scene you don't have control on where it's going to end up in terms of effort, its better to just push an update each 2 months (sort of like Treasure of Nadia each 15 days).

In summary, you can get help without providing any asset and/or having to babysit anyones work.