Advices to make a game

[GinaLerrys]

Hi, I'd like to try making a game,
I've seen a lot of of similar looking games (looks like characters and scenes from Illusion games).

I've tried a bit of Illusion games but I've no idea how to create scenes, make animations and things like that.
All I could do would be static images in already existing scenes at best.

When looking on this forum I found a lot of posts mentioning Daz, is it some kind of alternative to Blender ?
I'm almost a total noob in 3D (and wouldn't be able to do 2D either, I don't draw).

Should I rather try to learn Daz ? Or use Illusion games to make things I'd use in my game ?

For the game making part, I'll probably try Ren'Py, it looks like it's used a lot, even if I'm not a fan of python.
My guess is, the game would static images/gifs/vids playing, and an interface on top, never real 3D ? (never worked with 3D)
I'm more experienced in the development part, and shouldn't have too much troubles learning and using any tool to make the game.
My main issue is with the graphics.
I can already do something text based, but would prefer adding some visuals (and possibly animations) to it.

In terms of gameplay, I'm trying to make something between a visual novel and a dating sim, main insiprations would be Witch Trainer, Innocent Witches, and Research Into Corruption.

Do you have any recommendations for me please ?

 

[WhitePhantom]

Daz is kind of an alternative to Blender, but there's a lot you can do in Blender you can't do in Daz.

Daz is free though, and comes with enough free assets to make a few scenes and try it, you can find lots of tutorials for it on YouTube as well.

Daz is going to need you to render out the scenes though, whereas (as far as I am aware, never used it) most Illusion stuff renders in real time or near to it. So you're going to want to decide based on whether or not you've got a PC that can cope with rendering out the scenes.

In terms of copyright, technically it is illegal to use Illusion games for your own commercial project, but as you can see from the site, there's plenty of them that exist with no real problem.

Game Developer Training (Thunderhorn) does a ton of tutorials if you want to look through how to get started with both Daz and Ren'Py.

You must be registered to see the links

 

[anne O'nymous]

In terms of copyright, technically it is illegal to use Illusion games for your own commercial project, [...]

Not exactly. Illusion terms of use permit you to use the images made with their studio software in whatever way you want, including commercial creations. But for this to be legal, you need to fulfill the exact terms of use, and so keep the copyright notice that is automatically added when the image is created.
It's this last part that is not done, and that make the images seen in most games illegal.

 

[WhitePhantom]

Not exactly. Illusion terms of use permit you to use the images made with their studio software in whatever way you want, including commercial creations. But for this to be legal, you need to fulfill the exact terms of use, and so keep the copyright notice that is automatically added when the image is created.
It's this last part that is not done, and that make the images seen in most games illegal.

Sorry you're wrong about this.

This is Illusion's Website -

You must be registered to see the links

"It is prohibited to collect or induce money using our contents" - They've blanket banned using Illusion products for your own commercial purposes.

Like I said, plenty of people do it, so unlikely to get in trouble, but from a legal perspective it is illegal.

 

[toolkitxx]

You my friend should read my little guide first - tools are a step below what you have to begin with

 

[anne O'nymous]

Sorry you're wrong about this.

OMG, I missed and update of Illusion Terms of Use... As a none user of their product it's terrible...

This is Illusion's Website -

You must be registered to see the links

What you shown do not regard the subject of this thread. It's this that you should have shown:

Spoiler

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And effectively, with this update from November 2021 (and perhaps a previous update), they seem to have decided to not permit anymore the commercial use of what is created with their studio software. What wasn't the case last time they made a statement regarding this (mid 2019) ; if you want, you can search it, it should be somewhere in this thread.

Yet I'm not completely sure about this, because they talk here about the "screenshot function", what isn't really how I would have qualified the export function from their studio. But it can just be a question of translation. It's the license coming directly from the game that should be read. But I'll not download it just for this.
Be also noted that the license for the international version is not the same than the license for the Japanese version. FAKKU is way more greedy than Illusion and more restrictive.

 

[Ambir]

OMG, I missed and update of Illusion Terms of Use... As a none user of their product it's terrible...




What you shown do not regard the subject of this thread. It's this that you should have shown:

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

And effectively, with this update from November 2021 (and perhaps a previous update), they seem to have decided to not permit anymore the commercial use of what is created with their studio software. What wasn't the case last time they made a statement regarding this (mid 2019) ; if you want, you can search it, it should be somewhere in this thread.

Yet I'm not completely sure about this, because they talk here about the "screenshot function", what isn't really how I would have qualified the export function from their studio. But it can just be a question of translation. It's the license coming directly from the game that should be read. But I'll not download it just for this.
Be also noted that the license for the international version is not the same than the license for the Japanese version. FAKKU is way more greedy than Illusion and more restrictive.

The question is, do they have the power to sue everyone that uses their product? And if they haven't defended their IP for so long, do they even have grounds to stand on anymore?

 

[WhitePhantom]

OMG, I missed and update of Illusion Terms of Use... As a none user of their product it's terrible...

You're trying to correct me and say I'm wrong whilst not being up to date and as a result of that you've ended up giving out outdated and now incorrect legal advice on Illusion's copyright and ToS?

I double checked Illusion's website before posting my original comment, I was completely correct about what I said, it is illegal to use their products for your own commercial venture, and then you decided to "fact check" me and incorrectly claim I'm wrong...?

Surely if you're going to go out of your way to try and tell somebody they're wrong about something when I'm giving him the completely correct, up to date legal advice you shouldn't be years out of date yourself?

Hey, I have a very important question. I don't understand japanese at all, so I had no clue about all this. What does these terms of use and what do these copyright entail exactly? Are you able to provide some info on it, or maybe point me out toward a place where I could find out?

They're wrong and out of date about what they're saying here by the way.

The Legal take on Illusion products is this, as of November 2021 which is, at the time of writing, the most recent update:

"It is prohibited to collect or induce money using our contents"

They go on to further clarify their content as:

"Images and character data created with the screenshot function, data created with games, and videos"

And they then repeat what is prohibited:

"Use / support in places premised on commercialisation, use for the purpose of collecting money".

The tldr of that is Illusion do not give you permission to use any of their character models, or any images or videos, including screenshots, to generate yourself money, and you cannot use it in places "for the purpose of collecting money". Which is very broadscope.

So it would be legal to use Illusion software to (purely on the commercialisation aspect) create a game using their products and release it for free on f95zone.

It would be illegal to use Illusion software to create the same game and release it on Patreon, Itch, SubscribeStar, or any website where the focus is "collecting money", and this is not limited to "direct sales", so Patreon is banned under this.

FAKKU who distribute Illusion games in the West, have had this as their terms of service for a long time, so if you have a genuine version of Illusion software, you're probably bound by FAKKU's terms, if you got your copy from f95zone, you have absolutely no legal rights to use their software whatsoever.

So basically, you can't use Illusion products as the art for your games if you want to monetise the game.

The question is, do they have the power to sue everyone that uses their product? And if they haven't defended their IP for so long, do they even have grounds to stand on anymore?

Yes.
Yes.

Them not being aware, or deciding not to take action, does not bind them from doing it in the future, there is not a statute of limitations on copyright claims or any kind of "I've got away with it for x years so I can continue" protection.

However, many people do, have done for a long time, and continue to do so without any problem. So I wouldn't worry about it unless you have an email or letter from Illusion/FAKKU appear. They'd almost certainly send you a cease and desist letter asking you to stop prior to any real "suing" or legal action.

 

[Ambir]

They're wrong and out of date about what they're saying here by the way.

The Legal take on Illusion products is this, as of November 2021 which is, at the time of writing, the most recent update:

"It is prohibited to collect or induce money using our contents"

They go on to further clarify their content as:

"Images and character data created with the screenshot function, data created with games, and videos"

And they then repeat:

"Use support in places premised on commercialisation, use for the purpose of collecting money".

The tldr of that is Illusion do not give you permission to use any of their character models, or any images or videos, including screenshots, to generate yourself money, and you cannot use it in places "for the purpose of collecting money". Which is very broadscope.

So it would be legal to use Illusion software to (purely on the commercialisation aspect) create a game using their products and release it for free on f95zone.

It would be illegal to use Illusion software to create the same game and release it on Patreon, Itch, SubscribeStar, or any website where the focus is "collecting money", and not it is not "direct sales", so Patreon is banned under this.

FAKKU who distribute Illusion games in the West, have had this as their terms of service for a long time, so if you have a genuine version of Illusion software, you're probably bound by FAKKU's terms, if you got your copy from f95zone, you have absolutely no legal rights to use their software whatsoever.

So basically, you can't use Illusion products as the art for your games if you want to monetise the game.

Yes, yes, I actually hadn't read the rest of the thread, so I deleted that post because I felt dumb...

Yes.
Yes.

Them not being aware, or deciding not to take action, does not bind them from doing it in the future, there is not a statute of limitations on copyright claims or any kind of "I've got away with it for x years so I can continue" protection.

However, many people do, have done for a long time, and continue to do so without any problem. So I wouldn't worry about it unless you have an email or letter from Illusion/FAKKU appear. They'd almost certainly send you a cease and desist letter asking you to stop prior to any real "suing" or legal action.

Okay... So, basically my strategy should be to make enough money using their product so that I can pay for my own models and then ditch whatever I made with them completely, or at least remove all of the art... This is not doing wonders for my stress levels, but you are definitely giving me a measure of serinity. Thank you very much.

 

[anne O'nymous]

The question is, do they have the power to sue everyone that uses their product?

The power, yes of course they have it. But like too many Japanese companies, they don't care about what happen outside of Japan.

And if they haven't defended their IP for so long, do they even have grounds to stand on anymore?

It's not because you close your eyes that you give permission ; after having let mods exist for years, Rockstar goes against all visual mods for the titles they intend to remaster.
But anyway it's not Illusion that people should be wary of, it's FAKKU. If someone act, it will be them. But they only own the right over the international version, and you can point out this fact to them ; to win they'll have to prove that you are using the international version.

You're trying to correct me and say I'm wrong [...]

My very first words where "not exactly"...

But promized, now that I know that your pride is so weak that someone saying on internet that you are "not exactly right" hurt it so bad that you feel insulted, I'll never ever do it again.

 

[WhitePhantom]

Yes, yes, I actually hadn't read the rest of the thread, so I deleted that post because I felt dumb...

Okay... So, basically my strategy should be to make enough money using their product so that I can pay for my own models and then ditch whatever I made with them completely, or at least remove all of the art... This is not doing wonders for my stress levels, but you are definitely giving me a measure of serinity. Thank you very much.

Illusion and FAKKU got really pissed off when they found people making like £10,000 a month using games using their models without any of it going back to them. Remember things like Unreal Engine etc (I believe) take 30% of revenue, Steam takes 30% of revenue, so basically they wanted a cut of the pie and weren't very pleased they were being "cheated" in their eyes.

Subsequently they've banned all commercial use of their products, this was already banned in the West by FAKKU.

What this basically does is give them the legal power to find a Dev making say £100,000 a year, and go to them "Hey buddy, how about we discuss what cut you're going to give us before we go down the legal route and shut your game down and claim damages?"

Doing that though, costs them money, they have no guaranteed success, the Dev might be in somewhere completely wild with no copyright laws, and they might only be able to succeed in shutting the game down at their own legal expense and get nothing back. Whilst they will succeed in getting you shut down if they want to, you have to ask, will they bother? If you're making £100,000s and refusing to give them a cut, probably, if you're making a few hundred or a couple of thousand, it is extremely, extremely unlikely.

My very first words where "not exactly"...

But promized, now that I know that your pride is so weak that someone saying on internet that you are "not exactly right" hurt it so bad that you feel insulted, I'll never ever do it again.

I'm not insulted, but really when you incorrectly try and say I'm wrong, and I then just reply with some evidence to prove that in fact I am right, your reply is to go sarcastically basically "OMG I'm so sorry"? Really? There's just no need for it, is there?

I spent six years studying law and have two formal qualifications in it, I like giving people the correct legal advice regarding adult games as its quite a niche subject area, and I spent an absolute ton of time researching it for my own game, I don't need you sarcing off at me when I'm just trying to give somebody some advice...

 

[papel]

When looking on this forum I found a lot of posts mentioning Daz, is it some kind of alternative to Blender ?
I'm almost a total noob in 3D (and wouldn't be able to do 2D either, I don't draw).

Should I rather try to learn Daz ? Or use Illusion games to make things I'd use in my game ?

Keep in mind that posing the models properly is very time consuming. Animating them means you'll be posing them A LOT.

DAZ is a program that's easy to use for preparing and posing human models. If you don't have a decent nvidia graphics card, rendering the pictures will take a long time.
Source Film Maker is probably a decent alternative, though you'll have a harder time finding "the ideal" looking model, or customizing it.
Blender's a swiss army knife for 3d modelling, texturing, animating and whatnot.
I don't know how Skyrim or Fallout 4's TOS deal with videos, photos and animation made using the game or the engine, but they can give you some good looking characters and be much faster than waiting for a DAZ render.

 

[GinaLerrys]

Thanks everyone for your answers.
Seems like I'll try Daz and RenPy, and eventually Source Film Maker.
If I get this right, Daz generate still images/videos that you use in RenPy ?
You don't directly work with 3D right ?

 

[toolkitxx]

Thanks everyone for your answers.
Seems like I'll try Daz and RenPy, and eventually Source Film Maker.
If I get this right, Daz generate still images/videos that you use in RenPy ?
You don't directly work with 3D right ?

It all depends on what your goal is - all those infos people gave you until now are basically the same work process. And almost all of them will fit to a general visual novel as a result. Others have effectively used other tools and are faster and deliver better quality than you get with DAZ. Others do a lot of post work on whatever they created with DAZ and so on.

There are tons of examples where Unity is used for the 3d stuff and only the character models where originally created in DAZ, imported to Unity and all scene and 3D stuff was made in there. Especially because there is no proper physics in DAZ thus any material flow is really bad.

But i linked you my guide earlier - you dont just start with tools to make a game. Your game combined with your abilities dictates the tools.

 

[♍VoidTraveler]

This blog will teach you how to write:

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You must be registered to see the links

Because not everything is about graphics.

 

[Joshua Tree]

Illusion and FAKKU got really pissed off when they found people making like £10,000 a month using games using their models without any of it going back to them. Remember things like Unreal Engine etc (I believe) take 30% of revenue, Steam takes 30% of revenue, so basically they wanted a cut of the pie and weren't very pleased they were being "cheated" in their eyes.

Afaik. Unreal Engine is free up to 1 mill revenue. Then a 5% royality kicks in..

Valve take 30% revenue cut. If your game sells over 10 mill USD, it drop it's cut to 25%...

 

[GinaLerrys]

It all depends on what your goal is - all those infos people gave you until now are basically the same work process. And almost all of them will fit to a general visual novel as a result. Others have effectively used other tools and are faster and deliver better quality than you get with DAZ. Others do a lot of post work on whatever they created with DAZ and so on.

There are tons of examples where Unity is used for the 3d stuff and only the character models where originally created in DAZ, imported to Unity and all scene and 3D stuff was made in there. Especially because there is no proper physics in DAZ thus any material flow is really bad.

But i linked you my guide earlier - you dont just start with tools to make a game. Your game combined with your abilities dictates the tools.

I've read your post and as I said, I already have an idea of what I want to do, and a few things ready on the paper.
I could already do a text only version (I already know a bit in development, and have planned enough things to start something)

I'd really prefer doing something with graphics, but I've no experience in it.
What I had in mind at first (when thinking of using Illusion games), was downloading characters/scenes/objects/clothes... and different assets, customize it, and use em in my game like you'd use characters and background in a visual novel (so a lot of posing and still images).
And if I manage to do it, also add animations.

I first thought of 3D because I think it would be easier than 2D, as 2D would require drawing, and I don't really have drawing skills.

I'm at that part where I already have ideas that I'd like to try out and make a small POC, but no idea of which tools to use to do it.

 

[toolkitxx]

I've read your post and as I said, I already have an idea of what I want to do, and a few things ready on the paper.
I could already do a text only version (I already know a bit in development, and have planned enough things to start something)

I'd really prefer doing something with graphics, but I've no experience in it.
What I had in mind at first (when thinking of using Illusion games), was downloading characters/scenes/objects/clothes... and different assets, customize it, and use em in my game like you'd use characters and background in a visual novel (so a lot of posing and still images).
And if I manage to do it, also add animations.

I first thought of 3D because I think it would be easier than 2D, as 2D would require drawing, and I don't really have drawing skills.

I'm at that part where I already have ideas that I'd like to try out and make a small POC, but no idea of which tools to use to do it.

The good old saying : crawl, walk, run.

If you have the text ready then begin with making that work. If you intend to make it an interactive novel just doing that for your text will be the first hurdle you need to deal with. Once you get that to work adding simple graphics would be the next step. Either self drawn stuff that might look awful but lead to pepping up what you have right now and allowing you to figure out how to code that into your text-base or go for existing material from real porn or actresses. 3d entails a complete catalogue of stuff beginning from number of polygons used, lightning, textures and uv-mapping - this list is actually very long once you begin to look at halfway professional results. DAZ simply reduces some stuff but also comes with its own long list of downsides. 3d in general is an entire world on its own.

The big misunderstanding many people have is that they try to do everything. But that either means you triple the development time since you are just one person or your product will never finish at all. Stepwise creation allows you to actually finish but spend time after that on polishing quality or enhancing. Being able to create scenes etc in DAZ doesnt make you a developer but an artist or engineer. Your main job as developer is to maintain all bits and pieces - so the more you do on your own the less time will be left for subparts.

P.S. Everything i state is always with one clear thought: This stage is not meant to be monetized. Dont even consider it. You dont have the ability yet. Thus quality doesnt matter at this stage and it allows you to 'borrow' things from others until you are gaining more knowledge.

 

[GinaLerrys]

The good old saying : crawl, walk, run.

If you have the text ready then begin with making that work. If you intend to make it an interactive novel just doing that for your text will be the first hurdle you need to deal with. Once you get that to work adding simple graphics would be the next step. Either self drawn stuff that might look awful but lead to pepping up what you have right now and allowing you to figure out how to code that into your text-base or go for existing material from real porn or actresses. 3d entails a complete catalogue of stuff beginning from number of polygons used, lightning, textures and uv-mapping - this list is actually very long once you begin to look at halfway professional results. DAZ simply reduces some stuff but also comes with its own long list of downsides. 3d in general is an entire world on its own.

The big misunderstanding many people have is that they try to do everything. But that either means you triple the development time since you are just one person or your product will never finish at all. Stepwise creation allows you to actually finish but spend time after that on polishing quality or enhancing. Being able to create scenes etc in DAZ doesnt make you a developer but an artist or engineer. Your main job as developer is to maintain all bits and pieces - so the more you do on your own the less time will be left for subparts.

P.S. Everything i state is always with one clear thought: This stage is not meant to be monetized. Dont even consider it. You dont have the ability yet. Thus quality doesnt matter at this stage and it allows you to 'borrow' things from others until you are gaining more knowledge.

I don't think I mentioned it yet, but I'm only intending to make something for myself and share it when (and if) it's developed enough.
I never intended to sell anything, it's more like, I played a few games that I liked but wished for a few different things, so I'll try to do it myself.