are there problems with patreon and F95 patches?

[kraguto]

well the question is if Patreon has something against the patches that are released for games published in Patreon. I give as an example the thousands of games that cover incest. changing mother for landlady.

Do these patches create problems for the creator?

 

[anne O'nymous]

well the question is if Patreon has something against the patches that are released for games published in Patreon. I give as an example the thousands of games that cover incest. changing mother for landlady.

Do these patches create problems for the creator?

As author of the game, if you don't advertise the patch, nor even talk about it, and do not associate your name to it, you'll be good because you aren't the author of the patch, right ?
But if you fail at anyone of those points, you'll be hit by the ban hammer if someone report you.

Rich , since, alas, you know the subject better than me, something to add/correct ?

 

[redknight00]

For the most part no, Patreon doesn't actually like banning people that give them money so landlady-to-mom patchable games are enough for them to wink and look the other way.

 

[kraguto]

As author of the game, if you don't advertise the patch, nor even talk about it, and do not associate your name to it, you'll be good because you aren't the author of the patch, right ?
But if you fail at anyone of those points, you'll be hit by the ban hammer if someone report you.

Rich , since, alas, you know the subject better than me, something to add/correct ?

words more, words less, if someone hates me and denounces me, goodbye to the possibilities of patreon.
I think I will stop thinking about the option of patches that add content that I do not like in patreon.

 

[Rich]

As author of the game, if you don't advertise the patch, nor even talk about it, and do not associate your name to it, you'll be good because you aren't the author of the patch, right ?
But if you fail at anyone of those points, you'll be hit by the ban hammer if someone report you.

Clearly, "plausible deniability" is the key element here.

Here is my own personal opinion:

Patreon is caught between a rock and a hard place. They certainly like the revenue that adult authors bring in for them, but, at the same time, they have to please their payment processors. To do the latter, they have to have Terms of Service that satisfy the processors, and be seen to be enforcing them. Thus, if there is a situation in which they can't look the other way, they have to swing the hammer. Two obvious situations would seem to fall into that category:

1. The game, as distributed on Patreon, contains content that violates the ToS.
2. Someone, in reporting the work to them, can point to something on the Internet (example, a post here) when it is undeniable that the author is trying to get around the Patreon rules.

Not saying those are the only ones, but they would certainly qualify.

As to the whole "patches" thing, there are at least two categories of those, as well:

1. The first is a real "fan-made mod" (or, apparently "fan-made"). In this situation, content that doesn't appear in the original game is added to the game. An example - "back when," I worked with another member here to create a "shopping mod" for Big Brother. We added a significant number of images, text and logic to the original game. (For the sake of argument, ignore the fact that the game as distributed violated the ToS.) Now, if something like that is produced which fundamentally alters the nature of the game, and if there's no path to show that that mod was written by the author of the game, there's no reasonable way that Patreon could hold the author of the game responsible for it. Just like, if you open up and make major mods to an appliance, and then electrocute yourself doing it, you can't reasonably sue the manufacturer.
2. The second is, by far, the more common situation in my experience. All the "taboo content" is in the game, as distributed through Patreon, it's just "turned off." The patch then consists of some tiny thing (an itty-bitty file, a key sequence, naming a character correctly) that "flips the switch" and results in the game now displaying content that couldn't be shown directly.

A simple examination of any patch will tell you which of the two cases you're dealing with. If, for example, you're looking at a patch file that's a couple of hundred bytes, you aren't dealing with a situation in which a "fan" has gone in and made wholesale changes that the author didn't have anything to do with. Instead, the author "built all of that in," and just distributed the key via some other means that (hopefully) couldn't be traced back to them.

I have yet to hear of a case in which Patreon swung their hammer in which the second approach was taken in which the patch couldn't be directly traced back to the author. Personally, and this is just me bandying around my own opinion, this is ample evidence that Patreon is doing the minimum possible to satisfy their payment processors, and that they are not The Evil Empire Bent On Eradicating All Taboo Content From The World. I find it completely unbelievable that someone, somewhere hasn't pointed out some game hosted on Patreon, and the corresponding patch on LewdPatcher. We know that forum posts here have been reported. Do you think it likely that, with all the OP's here that provide LewdPatcher links, not a single solitary one of them has ever been reported to Patreon? I consider that about as likely as me winning the next PowerBall. Neither, I suspect, are the Patreon staff complete idiots in terms of what it takes to actually insert new content into a "pure" game. And yet, such games are still hosted on Patreon, and haven't been forced to "mend their ways."

Thus, it's my opinion, and it's only my opinion, as long as it can't be proven to their satisfaction that the author of the game is distributing the patch, Patreon is going to pretend that it's of the first variety, that the game, without the patch, doesn't actually contain any Material That PayPal Would Object To, and that any Evilness in the patched version of the game is Solely The Responsibility Of Some Random Person Out There, not the work of the Patreon page author, who is a completely pure-hearted individual who would never dream of doing such a thing. That way, you get to use their service, they get to make their commissions off you, and they can say to PayPal, "hey, you can't hold him responsible if others alter the game."

As I said, that's just my opinion, based on what I've seen to date.

That being said, if you're producing a game, and you can figure out a way to do the first type of patch rather than the second (and there are ways) now you have real plausible deniability, since even someone who decompiles your game wouldn't be able to find a single "Mom" or "Sister" inside it...

 

[kraguto]

Clearly, "plausible deniability" is the key element here.

Here is my own personal opinion:

Patreon is caught between a rock and a hard place. They certainly like the revenue that adult authors bring in for them, but, at the same time, they have to please their payment processors. To do the latter, they have to have Terms of Service that satisfy the processors, and be seen to be enforcing them. Thus, if there is a situation in which they can't look the other way, they have to swing the hammer. Two obvious situations would seem to fall into that category:

1. The game, as distributed on Patreon, contains content that violates the ToS.
2. Someone, in reporting the work to them, can point to something on the Internet (example, a post here) when it is undeniable that the author is trying to get around the Patreon rules.

Not saying those are the only ones, but they would certainly qualify.

As to the whole "patches" thing, there are at least two categories of those, as well:

1. The first is a real "fan-made mod" (or, apparently "fan-made"). In this situation, content that doesn't appear in the original game is added to the game. An example - "back when," I worked with another member here to create a "shopping mod" for Big Brother. We added a significant number of images, text and logic to the original game. (For the sake of argument, ignore the fact that the game as distributed violated the ToS.) Now, if something like that is produced which fundamentally alters the nature of the game, and if there's no path to show that that mod was written by the author of the game, there's no reasonable way that Patreon could hold the author of the game responsible for it. Just like, if you open up and make major mods to an appliance, and then electrocute yourself doing it, you can't reasonably sue the manufacturer.
2. The second is, by far, the more common situation in my experience. All the "taboo content" is in the game, as distributed through Patreon, it's just "turned off." The patch then consists of some tiny thing (an itty-bitty file, a key sequence, naming a character correctly) that "flips the switch" and results in the game now displaying content that couldn't be shown directly.

A simple examination of any patch will tell you which of the two cases you're dealing with. If, for example, you're looking at a patch file that's a couple of hundred bytes, you aren't dealing with a situation in which a "fan" has gone in and made wholesale changes that the author didn't have anything to do with. Instead, the author "built all of that in," and just distributed the key via some other means that (hopefully) couldn't be traced back to them.

I have yet to hear of a case in which Patreon swung their hammer in which the second approach was taken in which the patch couldn't be directly traced back to the author. Personally, and this is just me bandying around my own opinion, this is ample evidence that Patreon is doing the minimum possible to satisfy their payment processors, and that they are not The Evil Empire Bent On Eradicating All Taboo Content From The World. I find it completely unbelievable that someone, somewhere hasn't pointed out some game hosted on Patreon, and the corresponding patch on LewdPatcher. We know that forum posts here have been reported. Do you think it likely that, with all the OP's here that provide LewdPatcher links, not a single solitary one of them has ever been reported to Patreon? I consider that about as likely as me winning the next PowerBall. Neither, I suspect, are the Patreon staff complete idiots in terms of what it takes to actually insert new content into a "pure" game. And yet, such games are still hosted on Patreon, and haven't been forced to "mend their ways."

Thus, it's my opinion, and it's only my opinion, as long as it can't be proven to their satisfaction that the author of the game is distributing the patch, Patreon is going to pretend that it's of the first variety, that the game, without the patch, doesn't actually contain any Material That PayPal Would Object To, and that any Evilness in the patched version of the game is Solely The Responsibility Of Some Random Person Out There, not the work of the Patreon page author, who is a completely pure-hearted individual who would never dream of doing such a thing. That way, you get to use their service, they get to make their commissions off you, and they can say to PayPal, "hey, you can't hold him responsible if others alter the game."

As I said, that's just my opinion, based on what I've seen to date.

That being said, if you're producing a game, and you can figure out a way to do the first type of patch rather than the second (and there are ways) now you have real plausible deniability, since even someone who decompiles your game wouldn't be able to find a single "Mom" or "Sister" inside it...

Thank you very much for the reply.
I think that if at any time some fan of my creation decides to enter nsfw scenes with the centaur character from my visual novel. I will not have problems with patreon, since I was not the one who included such content.

(at least that's what I understood)

 

[anne O'nymous]

(at least that's what I understood)

You understood correctly. You can't be held responsible for something you haven't done.

While having obligations to their payment processors, like Rich said, Patreon also have obligations to you. They and you signed a contract when you started your account, and if they terminate it without reasons, they become responsible face to the Justice for this.
If you violate the rules they decided for their site, you broke the contract. In this case, they had all rights to ban you. You didn't respected your part, they have no obligation to respected theirs now.
But if it's someone who isn't you who violate those rules, by making a patch by example, it's something totally different. If they still decide to ban you for this, then it's them who broke the contract. But, being the service provider, they have the legal obligation to respect their part, and can be sentenced if they don't respect it.
Therefore, as long as they have no way to prove that you are the author of the patch, banning you mean that they face the possibility to be sued, then sentenced. It's something that no company want to live, not even Patreon ; especially now that they start to have real competitors.


After, you do what you want with this information. Perhaps that some game creators release a patch under a false identity... I really doubt, but like it's a false identity, who know ? But obviously, neither me, nor someone else, would advice you to do this. It would be abusing of a loophole, and doing so is bad.

 

[lawfullame]

But I still don't understand why they care about anything outside the Patreon platform, or anything that doesn't have a link from the Patreon platform. If they just wanted to satisfy PayPal, they wouldn't have to care about any patches or content that aren't accessible directly through the Patreon links. Or am I wrong?

 

[anne O'nymous]

Or am I wrong?

You are wrong.

What matter isn't what is available from the Patreon account, but what is funded by the money you receive through this account ; if you have time to loose and are good at digging, there's somewhere on the few threads started when Patreon started his ban, the copy of an e-mail they sent to Mr.Dots ("Dating my Daughter" author) where they explain that.


Lets say that I'm a cam girl who do sexual show (hope you'll like my beard and dick ). I have a website that host the stream, and a Patreon account where I give advice on how to flirt, date and pleasure women.
The Patreon account is 100% legit, and not a single time I talk about my show or my website. Same, on my website, where I don't talk about my Patreon account. All I have on the site is a link "subscribe" that will ask for a e-mail address and send you an e-mail giving you the conditions to access my stream. This e-mail will tell you that, to have a login, you need to pledge on my Patreon account, but also that, if you live in my country or near to it (I live in Europe) and pledge at the higher tiers for three month, "you'll have the possibility to encounter me, *blink*".
Then, the Patreon account is used to fund advice for men, but also sexual show and prostitution... And, obviously, due to their fees, both Patreon and the payment processor profit from this prostitution, which is illegal in a big part of the world (if not everywhere).


Now, it's extreme to apply the same principle to adult games, since they are far from prostitution. But when it come to underage content inside the game, the account can be part of a p[...]a (will be edited anyway, so...) ring, which cross a line.
Therefore, instead of having Terms of Service that say something like, "those contents are banned, and you can't use your account to fund these ones", their ToS simply treat all banned contents in the same way. It limit the risk that there's a loophole somewhere, while pleasing the payment processor ; "look, we didn't tried to trick you".

 

[215303j]

A recent trend is that the player is asked to define relationships at the beginning of the game.
Any comment on that so far?
It seems to me to cover the "plausible deniability" especially if the default value is given as "landlady".

 

[wep]

it is better if the dev doesn't add any loophole in the game
community is really active and forbidden content is easily added with fan made patches

 

[lawfullame]

You are wrong.

What matter isn't what is available from the Patreon account, but what is funded by the money you receive through this account ; if you have time to loose and are good at digging, there's somewhere on the few threads started when Patreon started his ban, the copy of an e-mail they sent to Mr.Dots ("Dating my Daughter" author) where they explain that.


Lets say that I'm a cam girl who do sexual show (hope you'll like my beard and dick ). I have a website that host the stream, and a Patreon account where I give advice on how to flirt, date and pleasure women.
The Patreon account is 100% legit, and not a single time I talk about my show or my website. Same, on my website, where I don't talk about my Patreon account. All I have on the site is a link "subscribe" that will ask for a e-mail address and send you an e-mail giving you the conditions to access my stream. This e-mail will tell you that, to have a login, you need to pledge on my Patreon account, but also that, if you live in my country or near to it (I live in Europe) and pledge at the higher tiers for three month, "you'll have the possibility to encounter me, *blink*".
Then, the Patreon account is used to fund advice for men, but also sexual show and prostitution... And, obviously, due to their fees, both Patreon and the payment processor profit from this prostitution, which is illegal in a big part of the world (if not everywhere).


Now, it's extreme to apply the same principle to adult games, since they are far from prostitution. But when it come to underage content inside the game, the account can be part of a p[...]a (will be edited anyway, so...) ring, which cross a line.
Therefore, instead of having Terms of Service that say something like, "those contents are banned, and you can't use your account to fund these ones", their ToS simply treat all banned contents in the same way. It limit the risk that there's a loophole somewhere, while pleasing the payment processor ; "look, we didn't tried to trick you".

I would understand if it was a criminal activity.
But I think that if Patreon played blind in investigating reports that a developer included banned fetishes in games, and their team did not detect any violations, they would be 100% safe from PayPal unless there is a link to that content directly on Patreons profile. The idea of someone from PayPal investigating some banned fetishes in games that can be downloaded somewhere on f95zone is ridiculous.

 

[anne O'nymous]

The idea of someone from PayPal investigating some banned fetishes in games that can be downloaded somewhere on f95zone is ridiculous.

They don't need to investigate, they just have to wait for someone to tell them.

I mean, how do you think that it started exactly ?
Clearly not because one day someone, at PayPal or whatever payment processor company, awaken with the clear vision that there were Patreon accounts used for prostitution and/or sexual show, and that there were some used for incest, bestiality and p[...]a games. No, it's someone who told them, and if it happened once, it can happen twice.
The payment processors were aware that Patreon host adult content ; the CEO fought hard to make PayPal agree for this kind of content, which was a first at this time and a big part of their success. What they didn't knew was that among this adult content, there were some that were crossing the line on their book.

Therefore, what do you expect from Patreon ? That they don't care and lost the possibility to use their payment processor when it will happen again ? Because it's what would happen if they can't demonstrate that they kept their part of the share ; banning any content that have to be banned once it's reported to them.
It's obvious that they'll never take such risk, it would mean the end of the company.

 

[lawfullame]

They don't need to investigate, they just have to wait for someone to tell them.

I mean, how do you think that it started exactly ?
Clearly not because one day someone, at PayPal or whatever payment processor company, awaken with the clear vision that there were Patreon accounts used for prostitution and/or sexual show, and that there were some used for incest, bestiality and p[...]a games. No, it's someone who told them, and if it happened once, it can happen twice.
The payment processors were aware that Patreon host adult content ; the CEO fought hard to make PayPal agree for this kind of content, which was a first at this time and a big part of their success. What they didn't knew was that among this adult content, there were some that were crossing the line on their book.

Therefore, what do you expect from Patreon ? That they don't care and lost the possibility to use their payment processor when it will happen again ? Because it's what would happen if they can't demonstrate that they kept their part of the share ; banning any content that have to be banned once it's reported to them.
It's obvious that they'll never take such risk, it would mean the end of the company.

However, if you are a developer, not everything you do is funded through Patreon. If a game has two versions, no one can prove that the extra content in the second version is not funded from sources other than Patreon, unless there is a link to the second version on the patreon profile.
It's not that if a developer uses Pateon, everything he does in his life has to follow Patreon's rules.

 

[anne O'nymous]

If a game has two versions, no one can prove that the extra content in the second version is not funded from sources other than Patreon, unless there is a link to the second version on the patreon profile.

They don't need to prove that the extra content is funded from Patreon. All they have to do is prove that the common part of both version is funded through your Patreon account, and Justice will statue in their favor.
Exactly in the same way that it's stupid to say that a whole car haven't be funded by [whatever way] just because you used another source of income to buy the wheels.

If you want to have a Patreon account and make a game that have banned content, it have to be a totally different game that the one you fund through Patreon.

 

[lawfullame]

They don't need to prove that the extra content is funded from Patreon. All they have to do is prove that the common part of both version is funded through your Patreon account, and Justice will statue in their favor.
Exactly in the same way that it's stupid to say that a whole car haven't be funded by [whatever way] just because you used another source of income to buy the wheels.

If you want to have a Patreon account and make a game that have banned content, it have to be a totally different game that the one you fund through Patreon.

That makes sense. Then the "fan made mods" are probably the only safe way.
Well, the Patreon rules don't limit me at the moment because I don't like the content they forbid, but I still find the system stupid because the payment processor shouldn't decide what will be allowed and what will be forbidden. The more ways to circumvent such stupid rules, the better. No one knows when they decide to ban something else.