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Mr. Cofman
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You know, even Euphoria gives you a normal ending after torturing for a while.
Can't say the same about this game! It's a rollercoaster of bullshit that will break you to the point of enjoying being miserable!
If it follows the Dark Souls logic... hehehe~
Then the struggle was pointless from the beginning! HIHIHIHYAHAHAHAHAHAHA! KYAAAÀHAHAHAHAHAHA! KHHEEEEE! UHGAAAAA!
*started coughing and died X_X*
SeltzerSellout
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- Feb 24, 2019
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I have no clue how I managed to get through DLC3 content, but I did. I stopped playing after dying 2 phases before finishing the final boss and decided to watch the last ending online. 53h of total playtime (but 33h written on the final save file), a good run.
This game was very rich artistically. Gameplay, story-telling, music, level-design, everything was so creative and innovative. The freedom given by this medium and genre enables artists to explore deep philosophical and psychological phenomenons without restraints, with no censorship. This mere freedom enables powerful forms of art to be made.
There's something truly unique and innovative about this work. It's hard to describe, think, explain or convey. While it's easy to present the game as "bloodborne meets fairy tales, meets Lovecraft : the dark H-RPG", it's a lot harder to explain what that entails.
The amount of meaningful and quality content is impressive as well.
I enjoyed my time with BS2 a lot more than BS1. I don't think it would ruin people's run of BS2 to skip over BS1, but many situations will not make any sense if you don't play BS1 first (at least all the way to getting one of the endings, but ideally knowing all the endings of BS1)
BS1 is a good game and a poor H-game imo, while BS2 is an artistic masterpiece before being either a game, or an H-game.
I am left impressed.
There are many themes explored in a pretty unique ways: Mental health, moral convictions, the ways our mind and perceptions distorts reality, OCD, the meaning of love, infatuation, impulse control, resilience against all odds and any suffering, the insanity that comes from seeing the world and the people we love change over time, what it means to help others and help oneself, and much more.
I really, truly wish that we'll still exist in a society able to produce such works of art, without the kind of censorship that would make such artists unable to work and operate.
This game was very rich artistically. Gameplay, story-telling, music, level-design, everything was so creative and innovative. The freedom given by this medium and genre enables artists to explore deep philosophical and psychological phenomenons without restraints, with no censorship. This mere freedom enables powerful forms of art to be made.
There's something truly unique and innovative about this work. It's hard to describe, think, explain or convey. While it's easy to present the game as "bloodborne meets fairy tales, meets Lovecraft : the dark H-RPG", it's a lot harder to explain what that entails.
The amount of meaningful and quality content is impressive as well.
I enjoyed my time with BS2 a lot more than BS1. I don't think it would ruin people's run of BS2 to skip over BS1, but many situations will not make any sense if you don't play BS1 first (at least all the way to getting one of the endings, but ideally knowing all the endings of BS1)
BS1 is a good game and a poor H-game imo, while BS2 is an artistic masterpiece before being either a game, or an H-game.
I am left impressed.
There are many themes explored in a pretty unique ways: Mental health, moral convictions, the ways our mind and perceptions distorts reality, OCD, the meaning of love, infatuation, impulse control, resilience against all odds and any suffering, the insanity that comes from seeing the world and the people we love change over time, what it means to help others and help oneself, and much more.
I really, truly wish that we'll still exist in a society able to produce such works of art, without the kind of censorship that would make such artists unable to work and operate.
You quite literally spoil the entire plot twist of BS1 if you play BS2 first. There will be no more mystery to the entire set up of BS1 beginning.
The entire journey play with your expectations that you are in high grimm dark fantasy Demon Souls. Only to turn out at the very end its all Bloodborn. Which is fully reflected in BS2.
PS: Not a jab against OP poster but because we have new people here (3 in a row) asking if they can skip over BS1 playing BS2 first.
I am like....why would people think or assume things like that.
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SeltzerSellout
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- Feb 24, 2019
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While this is true, it requires the player to reach a pretty late game area before you're able to link, in any way possible, BS2's story to BS1's. For most of your BS2 run, you won't understand much of what's going on, or even if there's anything related between the two stories.
It's best to first try BS1, give it a chance, and if you get bored of it you can jump straight to BS2 and mess around. And if you change your mind mid-way, you can go back to BS1, finish it thoroughly, then finish BS2 thoroughly, and chances are you won't have a bad experience.
It's best to first try BS1, give it a chance, and if you get bored of it you can jump straight to BS2 and mess around. And if you change your mind mid-way, you can go back to BS1, finish it thoroughly, then finish BS2 thoroughly, and chances are you won't have a bad experience.
If you manage to SEN down you will meet Red Hood at the very beginning. Where she will spoil lots of things on her bornfire ASMR with you.
If you ever meet Mabel(ChaosDungeon) once most of BS1 will immidiatly click that its all fake.
The entire beginning area is Yarhnam of BB.
If a player manages to get their SEN down low enough the entire maps will reveal themsevles to be all eldritch.
Which can happen fairly quickly as you wont know about the Gear of Madness or min/max your SEN on your first playtrough.
There might be even more straightforward hints or lore dumbs i am missing but BS2 is fully assuming the player already knows whats up
This is like saying knowing in Bravely Default that the quirky fairy is lying to you the entire time is a-ok to know beforehand.
Of course it will affect your perception of the story.
I cant look into peoples minds. There are some breed of folks out there who enjoy spoilers. But most people i assume their default stance afterwards will be: "Wish i had played the game properly for a first blind run experience".
The very same phenomena happend with OG Souls players who wished they could have approached these games in more pure/blind first time experience.
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SeltzerSellout
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- Feb 24, 2019
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My first BS2 run was low sen and I didn't understand anything, I would advise against doing that for a first run yes and it's less fun to play that way. But the game makes it highly improbable that you would get in that kind of situations.
And the map looked "eldritch" because... I was going crazy? I still believe that this is the correct explanation? You have two kinds of insanity, low SEN and high SEN, they just are insane in different ways, is how I understood the game's mechanic after finishing it.
I see your point, my experience would have been different from yours I continue to believe. If you put me in these story situations, I wouldn't understand anything. And tbh, seeing the BS1 endings wasn't very clear to me neither. Keep in mind there's a lot of room for any possibilities throughout the story, any kind of twist could happen at any point, making most conjectures red herrings and pointless imo. I agree with the other person who said the story's a mess, it really is, and takes a lot of time to take in and make any sense at all.
But above all, these games offer different gameplay experiences, and have a lot more to offer than just the story. And the story is good enough that it will always be enjoyable, even if you get important information. But none of the dialogues you mentioned give you the information that you would get After Queensland which is very far. And even then, you would need the "drink me!" item to even know they're the same character. Yes, other dialogues hint that we knew her from before, but we also know the MC's memories are a mess in so many ways.
I think that, if you look closely, you'll notice the devs have put a lot of effort into making the BS2 run unable to ruin your BS1 run, until you start going for the G ending at least. But you can also play BS1 without aiming for full completion, in which case you would not be able to understand some things neither.
But I can agree with your conclusion.
And the map looked "eldritch" because... I was going crazy? I still believe that this is the correct explanation? You have two kinds of insanity, low SEN and high SEN, they just are insane in different ways, is how I understood the game's mechanic after finishing it.
I see your point, my experience would have been different from yours I continue to believe. If you put me in these story situations, I wouldn't understand anything. And tbh, seeing the BS1 endings wasn't very clear to me neither. Keep in mind there's a lot of room for any possibilities throughout the story, any kind of twist could happen at any point, making most conjectures red herrings and pointless imo. I agree with the other person who said the story's a mess, it really is, and takes a lot of time to take in and make any sense at all.
But above all, these games offer different gameplay experiences, and have a lot more to offer than just the story. And the story is good enough that it will always be enjoyable, even if you get important information. But none of the dialogues you mentioned give you the information that you would get After Queensland which is very far. And even then, you would need the "drink me!" item to even know they're the same character. Yes, other dialogues hint that we knew her from before, but we also know the MC's memories are a mess in so many ways.
I think that, if you look closely, you'll notice the devs have put a lot of effort into making the BS2 run unable to ruin your BS1 run, until you start going for the G ending at least. But you can also play BS1 without aiming for full completion, in which case you would not be able to understand some things neither.
But I can agree with your conclusion.
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TheMadUncleJack
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- Jul 19, 2021
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Install the VX Ace RTP, pick RTP, download and install. It's required to run any VX Ace game.
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Already sorry for the minor wall of text
On average people here have come to various "aha" or "so thats what it was" moments on their own.
PS: But to sum this up shortly. (Also thanks for reading my walls of text).
There are people who enjoy various media with spoilers more or might not mind them.
However the core notion i want to convey is this: You can only tackle this journey once. Just like your first Souls game or first time with "insert any media here".
This journey for the first time will always be a unique experience. Even if you might end up liking-disliking BlackSouls or dont get the hype/love around it.
Regardless of how your thoughts turn out at the end. Try to immerse yourself properly, take your time or whatever you do to relax for the right mindeset.
Just dont do regrets or self sabotage your potentially amazing experience.
Maybe i or you understood some viewpoint wrong. However i am talking about playing BS2 first which spoils plotwists in BS1. If you play in reverse order. Not talking about in context of understanding lore in BS2 on your first run.
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Huh. I think you vastly underestimate people putting 1x1 together. Yeah you will get various things after a deep dive into the lore. But from i seen on the thread board here over the years. People who played BS1 first have been quick on the uptake to notice things immidiatly. Maybe its also because they might have experience various other media thus know how cosmic-horror concept works or how Toro utulizes them.
On average people here have come to various "aha" or "so thats what it was" moments on their own.
PS: But to sum this up shortly. (Also thanks for reading my walls of text).
There are people who enjoy various media with spoilers more or might not mind them.
However the core notion i want to convey is this: You can only tackle this journey once. Just like your first Souls game or first time with "insert any media here".
This journey for the first time will always be a unique experience. Even if you might end up liking-disliking BlackSouls or dont get the hype/love around it.
Regardless of how your thoughts turn out at the end. Try to immerse yourself properly, take your time or whatever you do to relax for the right mindeset.
Just dont do regrets or self sabotage your potentially amazing experience.
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TheMadUncleJack
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- Jul 19, 2021
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So? We all have our feelings about the lore. Does a good story needs a happy/right/proper end? Don't answer. It's rhetorical.
But to me, story without hope is still a story.
Story about a match-selling little girl died freezing is still a story.
Story about a little girl died ate by wolf impersonating her grand mother is still a story.
Story about a pair of twins left to starve is still a story.
Story about a goose with golden egg got cut open because the farmer believes she has more inside is still a story.
Story about a hero believed to be guided by god yet burned at stake because of manipulated trial is still a story.
Story about a virgin tortured and killed because she's a Christian is still a story.
Sounds bullshit, right? Sometimes i do wonder what's in the head of those who wrote them. But even now these kind of stories still read and told over and over all over the world to kids and adults alike. What are you going to do about it? By what army?
Should they wish to, let people find out for themselves, man. Reading fairy tales never hurt anyone. Not ones i know, anyway. But at least, i'm very inclined to agree with you that the story is a sordid mess.
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SeltzerSellout
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- Feb 24, 2019
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That was a very interesting read, thanks for sharing.
1st: Your interpretation seems well grounded in knowledge of Lovecraft and From Software games, which I lack. But we do agree that there are many different interpretations possibles. Without all that knowledge and context on the inspirations behind the story writing, all sorts of interpretations open-up. And I feel like the game rarely renders any interpretation as impossible, I feel like most interpretations can be valid simultaneously, which adds a layer of mystery to everything.
2nd: I looked into セン shortly, I guess I should replay the game directly in Japanese sometimes later. Here are a few readings for it:
餞 sen, a goodbye. Also read uma no hanamuke.
せん、the final part you use to add negations in verbs when conjugating. "negation".
線 sen, a line, a stripe, a division.
選 sen, as in sentaku 選択 a choice.
3rd: I tend to assume that if someone needs to ask if they should skip over the first entry of a series or not, they probably won't lose much by skipping ahead? It's their choice either way, but, I'm sure you understand you've put a lot of work into this thorough interpretation of the inner workings of this game's world. Sure, the active participants in communities tend to be very invested, and very able to interpret works they care a lot for. I'm not so sure about most lurkers, as a lurker. But I get it: we do love this game a lot, it'd be a shame if someone sabotaged their own experience. At least, they have thorough arguments for and against skipping ahead to help them choose, that's positive.
4th: I really gotta play bloodborne someday.
5th: if you have further readings, like highlights in this thread of people sharing their interpretations of the story, I'm interested, feel free to share.
6th: Very entertaining to see who I believe to be the main dev, 寿司勇者トロ, and his Touhou series in the spirit of the classic KKHTA available on youtube (and ニコニコ動画, user/25245445). If you guys don't know about Koishi Komeiji's Heart-Throbbing Adventure, feel free to check it out. The artstyle, and the spirit have probably been sources of inspiration for this artist.
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Play order is "Red Hood's Woods" -> "Black Souls" -> "Black Souls II", no exceptions.
It's been a while since I've played it so I don't quite remember, but the very first Red Hood's Woods should imply cosmic horror elements, or at least should help the impression of Black Souls 1 that something is amiss. Actually, Alice exploding at the start should do that plenty.
A lot of young people are impatient and always ask about skipping works in a series or being told about watch orders just to consume the latest hot new thing. (Perhaps sometimes a particular work in a series genuinely interests them, but then it stands to reason that they'd as a consequence be interested in the related works.) As a result, I agree that they probably would not lose anything by skipping, because frankly the other works would be wasted on them. "Don't throw pearls before swine", after all.
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Why you all even discussing play order? Short answer is that you literally don't have any reason to even try to understand BS2 story without finishing BS1, including all of its endings and gutting out all content it can offer.
I still can't recommend playing Red hood woods to everyone because of the poor gameplay. Red Hood's backstory is relatively important tho... Maybe watch playthrough or read plot summary somewhere.
I still can't recommend playing Red hood woods to everyone because of the poor gameplay. Red Hood's backstory is relatively important tho... Maybe watch playthrough or read plot summary somewhere.
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While I am a advocate of playing all games in the same storyline (read: same series doesn't count, like the difference between playing each Atelier Sophie game and all Atelier games) in proper order, I don't think Red riding woods is important to play first because it doesn't set up anything. Playing Red riding woods before, or even after, isn't going to increase your understanding of the black souls story. You'll just get some of the references afterwards, like why Red Hood's moveset is so weird or why you can summon Red hood to talk to the frog. Are either of those important details to know? Not really imo. The game is only like 5 hours or something though, and pretty easy iirc, so there isn't much reason not to play it first.
I am in agreement here as even Black Souls 1 Red was treated a fun cameo and doesnt become important until 2 and its DLCs, hell even the "true" ending in 1 deals with her dying sooooooo yeah dont need that Red Hood game to understand that lore
Noah Neim
Well-Known Member
- Nov 25, 2020
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I beg to differ honestly, you don't need that complex of a guide to beat bs2 at all, the guide in the thread can be skipped entirely, the actual problem with bs is that sometimes it makes its details a bit hard to sift through, I suppose if i was there to discover it at the time it would've been fun, but for example, who could ever know that one dialogue in the game from a snowman would tell you the secret to the ending? It isn't an absurd connection, nor is it too terrible, but think about the average player, someone who may not read guides at all, and just forgets about that dialogue in the hundreds they read throughout the game, maybe they take a break and forget.
This is the example I particularly had issue with, it's the slippery slope every game that tries to be secretive like BS ends up in, its either too obvious or too secretive, rarely is there a perfect amount of information conveyed in a no so obvious manner.
SeltzerSellout
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- Feb 24, 2019
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I do have a question for the "low SEN is actually how the garden is without TCO's meddling" theory.
My biggest objection is the following: some enemies appear and disappear based on it. Not just friendly NPCs but also aggressive ones. I assumed they all were hallucinations and distortions of reality while playing, but if they "exist", why would SEN affect their behavior? Wouldn't we be attacked either way when in range?
Another question: anyone documented the references to other works included in at least BS2? It would be impossible to catch everything, but any attempt at documenting this would be insightful.
I found an interesting explanation in this thread, for one of the most enigmatic creatures in this game imo. (spoilers)
My biggest objection is the following: some enemies appear and disappear based on it. Not just friendly NPCs but also aggressive ones. I assumed they all were hallucinations and distortions of reality while playing, but if they "exist", why would SEN affect their behavior? Wouldn't we be attacked either way when in range?
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I found an interesting explanation in this thread, for one of the most enigmatic creatures in this game imo. (spoilers)
There some more obvious connecting in japanese.
For example in japanese its way more obvious that Mabel-MarySue end their sentences the same way.
Or MarySue singing a song which ends up with the same verb Jabberwock ends her own song in dialog.
This point of view i will never agree with. Maybe that works for things like Final Fantasy games, some Trails of Cold Steel games. Or how others mentionend the Atlier alchemy games. Even souls game really can be played on their own. But i never seen someone not in hindsight complain they shoulndt have started in reverse order on any gameseries that has a proper timeline to follow.
Everyone should. One of the masterpieces of our times. Never seen any japanese devs nail eldritch horror in the way FromSoftware did. (Outside of VNs).
To be fair i would say just look trough the pages for yourself. I am not going to tooth my own posts on the matter because simply put others have summed up or discovered things in a much more coherent manner than i did.
Yes uhh in direct translations their circle name in english should be. Eeeny Meeny Mino Moe or rather the japanese equivalent of it.
On twitter their username is Toro which is linked in OP. Also yes people found out that their first pet project on the internet was a creepypasta-like morbid retelling of some Touhou characters. Which mostly popped off on niko niko. But the entire slightly animated series of grotesk artworks and events can be found on YT. Their social medias still has their favorite touhou character as a profile icon.
Not to mention Leaf and Red being their own homage to touhou characters.
SeltzerSellout
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- Feb 24, 2019
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It's pretty entertaining to see how deep people's theories and analysis can go for this game's lore, and calling each other's theories crazy and absurd, we rarely see people that passionate about a niche game's story nowadays. I'll miss this game a bit, was a fun ride.
We know the dev started working on BS3 about 3 to 4 years ago according to their ci-en posts I believe? And that they're still alive and have been more active online lately. But besides that, any idea when they'll release a new game?
Also, if y'all love obsessing over Black Souls lore, I highly recommend playing MGQ Paradox. Most of the things you love about BS's lore may make MGQ paradox a very fun playthrough. And it has far, far more content.
We know the dev started working on BS3 about 3 to 4 years ago according to their ci-en posts I believe? And that they're still alive and have been more active online lately. But besides that, any idea when they'll release a new game?
Also, if y'all love obsessing over Black Souls lore, I highly recommend playing MGQ Paradox. Most of the things you love about BS's lore may make MGQ paradox a very fun playthrough. And it has far, far more content.