Calling All Game Developers.... Please Read? Or Don't?

[Supertimes4321]

As I dive deeper into this world of Pornographic Video Games (is there a better term/title?), I've become a little perplexed by the process of creating these games. I am a little confused by the various content developers who release their games prior to completion. Call me old fashion, but I feel like more of these games would be appreciated and liked if they were completed, tested, and then released for the public’s consumption. If making a game all at once is too much of an undertaking, then perhaps folks would respond more positively to games that were released in three segments: beginning, middle, and end. Then again, maybe a lot of developers are lacking an overarching plot, or objective for their game, which would explain their desire to receive feedback. Anyway, I am hoping that a few individuals could provide some insight into how they go about creating their games. Also, let’s be clear, in no way am I an authority, or of expertise in this industry. I’m just another horny dude who wishes to see these games become a part of the mainstream and perhaps I am advocating for the game developers.

The following question is my biggest question to all of the developers on here:

Why are so many developers listening to the general public and kowtowing to the various voices objecting to their decisions throughout the creative process?

Too many hands in the pot waters down the creative process!

Think about some of the greatest record albums, musical compositions, movies, video games, and other forms of popular entertainment that started with one-to-five people in a room. Sure, the process opens up to a wider array of people to make the vision a reality, but the focus, and initial concept of the art tends to have a limited number of individuals active in the creative process. Think about the creation of albums like Sgt. Pepper, Ziggy Stardust, Darkside of the Moon/The Wall, A Night at the Opera, Nevermind, Straight Outta Compton, What's Going On, Speakerboxx/The Love Below and so on; these albums were a departure from the artists pervious works and pushed popular music forward. None of these artists were seeking constant approval from their audience, or even curtailed their art based on the whims of critical reviews, but rather made the albums they wanted to make. These artists also made completed and fully produced products. They wanted the public to hear their completed albums. Once art leaves the hands of the creator, it becomes a part of the public sphere. Therefore, by releasing an unfinished product into the public sphere, you are welcoming a million voices to destroy your vision. Remember, the public only knows what you have presented. Their ignorance to your overarching goals and vision for your game hinders their ability to offer an objective critique.

I guess what I am trying to say is, do what you want game creators. Fuck the noise and stay the course. Make your creative vision a reality, but complete it, test it, and then pass it onto the public for judgement. In the end, if you believe in what you created, then who cares what the rest think.

Thoughts?

 

[K.T.L.]

A lot of the creators are being supported by people on subscribestar, patreon, etc. while developing the games then releasing them for free once they're complete. Not many of them are actually being sold.

 

[Droid Productions]

As Kitkat says, first part is funding. Patreon allows devs to make money on the game as it's being built, which allows some to do this full-time, and others to spend more time on it than they would otherwise have done. For me, income from my game has been the majority of my income the last 12 months, as the pandemic bites... without it I would have needed to get a real job, and productivity would have gone done heavily.

Secondly, having a community around you is amazing for motivation and productivity. A lot of us make these games alone, and it's easy to start doubting yourself, or getting demotivated, without people playing and enjoying your game. The famous musicians you mention didn't just sit in a basement for a year, writing in isolation, then arriving at the studio one day with everything complete. They had fans, played concerts, tested their material in dive-bars and listened to feedback.

Thirdly, getting stuff tested is huge, especially as a single developer. I spent 15 months developing book 1 of Love of Magic; if I'd done that totally alone I would have given up in depression a long time ago. Not only that, but having people play the game daily (for my discord testers) and every 1-2 months for people at places like here has been huge in helping fix bugs, highlight places where people are getting frustated, where I'm unclear in writing or gameplay mechanics.

Releasing it episodically also allows multiple rounds of marketing; I see a bump in new users coming in each time I do a release, and by the time I released Book 1 as complete there was a bunch of happy users that helped tell their friends about it, bought and reviewed it on steam (despite having played it for free here) and in general help create an online buzz.

You can't really compare it to a full team, with existing funding, spending 18 months together and developing a 'complete' game, with a professional QA team and a marketing department. The business model arose out of the environment, and it works pretty well.

There's downsides, of course; some games never get finished (or write themselves into infinity-games on purpose), some devs lose their own vision along the way... but that's the case for professional games as well. By and large it works.

And after 20 years of making games professionally, I *will* say that this is as happy as I've ever been, making games. The community is amazingly supportive, I love the creative freedom it allows me, and the constant pressure to learn new skills (I'm a programmer, so I had to pick up art, animation, fx, marketing, understanding Steam, community management, etc along the way).

 

[Winterfire]

Good part of your question has been answered, so I'll answer this one:
"Why are so many developers listening to the general public and kowtowing to the various voices objecting to their decisions throughout the creative process?" from my point of view.

When you are developing something, that idea is closed in your mind and your mind alone, and that often means you are unable to see its faults or ways to improve or do better.
Being open to the general public means you get the chance to read things you never thought about, or different ways to see the same thing you are attempting to do.
When it comes to ideas, it is no different than "brainstorming", when it comes to creative things, public's input is a small goldmine.

Of course you need to be able to accept criticism, have an open mind and be willing to change, and of course be willing to say "no" sometimes when their idea is far off than your general plan.
In short, the general public shouldn't drive your cart, but give suggestions on a better path to take to reach the destination you want.

 

[Doorknob22]

I'm new to developing porn games but I've been writing erotica (i.e. porn) for more than twenty years and recently turned commercial so I'll allow myself to comment.

The creator's sole "creative lighthouse" must be based on their own internal voice. You are your own guide. You are your own north star. You are you own compass. There must be a drive inside you. All major decisions must be made by the creator(s) with fans/followers/backers' opinions only limited to very specific issues.

I don't believe that good creative products can be created by satisfying every wish of fans or backers. It's OK to read their requests and opinions and be influenced but that's it. There's a big difference between being influenced and attempting to cater to every wish.

From time to time I see new developers in this forum posting posts and polls asking "what genre do you want to see?" trying to write a game covering popular genres. To put it very mildly, this is the wrong way to start any creative process. Being creative is about what you want to create not about what you think other may find popular.

 

[gunderson]

From time to time I see new developers in this forum posting posts and polls asking "what genre do you want to see?" trying to write a game covering popular genres. To put it very mildly, this is the wrong way to start any creative process. Being creative is about what you want to create not about what you think other may find popular.

Yup. In fact, I'd go a step further and say that whenever somebody asks that sort of question on a forum like this, what they're really saying is, "I heard these Patreon things were an easy to way to make money. I like money! I've never made a game or written a porn story before, but it only took me a half hour to play the last porn game I liked so that's probably how long it'll take to make. And since I'm me and know what I like, I can easily make a better game than that moron! Because I know just what things I didn't like about their game, I'll be able to fix all of them! I got me a 3D rendering program, notepad, ren'py software, and saw a tutorial somewhere. Man, people who work real jobs are fucking chumps. Clearly, the hardest part about making a good porn game is picking the tags and the genre, which is the whole reason I decide whether to play a game or not, so I'll just ask around for what the best genre and tags are and make that. Fuck, I'll make soooo much money!"

And then the obvious happens: each and every one of them becomes impossibly rich because they all made the greatest porn game ever. Speaking of, gotta get back to playing the smash hit and super addicting porn game, Vidio Jaymes; Teh Landlaydys Buttt. I think they tapped Spielberg to direct the movie adaptation?

 

[Agent HK47]

Monkey makes a game and shows it to people. People give him bananas. Monkey like bananas. People demand monkey makes game the way they like it, or maybe no more bananas from them. Monkey don't want to lose bananas, so he does was people tell him to do.

Exaggerated, I know, but the point is there: Developers fear that their audience might pull away from their game, taking their financial support with them. The thing is, this often changes the game and makes it different from what brought the audience there in the first place, so half the audience ends up leaving anyway.
You simply will never be able to please everyone. It's a war that can't be won. Developers would do best to take in advice and critique, but largely stick to their own vision.

 

[Supertimes4321]

As Kitkat says, first part is funding. Patreon allows devs to make money on the game as it's being built, which allows some to do this full-time, and others to spend more time on it than they would otherwise have done. For me, income from my game has been the majority of my income the last 12 months, as the pandemic bites... without it I would have needed to get a real job, and productivity would have gone done heavily.

Secondly, having a community around you is amazing for motivation and productivity. A lot of us make these games alone, and it's easy to start doubting yourself, or getting demotivated, without people playing and enjoying your game. The famous musicians you mention didn't just sit in a basement for a year, writing in isolation, then arriving at the studio one day with everything complete. They had fans, played concerts, tested their material in dive-bars and listened to feedback.

Thirdly, getting stuff tested is huge, especially as a single developer. I spent 15 months developing book 1 of Love of Magic; if I'd done that totally alone I would have given up in depression a long time ago. Not only that, but having people play the game daily (for my discord testers) and every 1-2 months for people at places like here has been huge in helping fix bugs, highlight places where people are getting frustated, where I'm unclear in writing or gameplay mechanics.

Releasing it episodically also allows multiple rounds of marketing; I see a bump in new users coming in each time I do a release, and by the time I released Book 1 as complete there was a bunch of happy users that helped tell their friends about it, bought and reviewed it on steam (despite having played it for free here) and in general help create an online buzz.

You can't really compare it to a full team, with existing funding, spending 18 months together and developing a 'complete' game, with a professional QA team and a marketing department. The business model arose out of the environment, and it works pretty well.

There's downsides, of course; some games never get finished (or write themselves into infinity-games on purpose), some devs lose their own vision along the way... but that's the case for professional games as well. By and large it works.

And after 20 years of making games professionally, I *will* say that this is as happy as I've ever been, making games. The community is amazingly supportive, I love the creative freedom it allows me, and the constant pressure to learn new skills (I'm a programmer, so I had to pick up art, animation, fx, marketing, understanding Steam, community management, etc along the way).

I don't know how tested these albums were. I highly doubt the Beatles would have been able to play half of their Sgt. Peppers record live, plus they quit touring and playing live shows by the time Pepper was recorded. Sure the single Strawberry Fields and albums Rubber Soul, and Revolver prior to Pepper could be viewed as a progression toward Pepper, but in the end, it was the competition between Lennon, and McCartney which pushed that record. Most landmark albums work this way. Bands rarely test new songs live. No one wants to hear new songs live. I know in stand-up comedy, comics test new material live, but it's always in some club during a late night set where only and handful of people see them. Bands don't really have that platform anymore. I mean maybe Green Day does this with their Cover Band, which allows them to play small gigs, but I was under the impression that was just a fun gig they do in the East Bay.

Now I do see your point about these bands have a lot of money at this disposal to be able to create these albums. Also, as you have pointed out, most of these albums were made in the middle of these artists' careers, or after failed records (Bowie's Case), which in itself kills my argument. However, albums like Bleed American by Jimmy Eat World, and pretty much all of the Hardcore Punk albums from the 80s-2000s were self-financed. Most albums now by indie artist are self financed with day jobs, which I guess is perhaps why Rock Music is dying, given how much more expensive it is to finance, over programed music. Anyway, I just wonder if something is lost when individuals have to compete with Patrons telling them what to do.

I can see your point about Patreon, which I see as a double edged sword. I've used this site in the past when I was a musician. I always felt like it was pulling my songwriter in too many different directions. As I said, it felt like he was being forced to make the same music, the safer music that he knew the Patreon's would approve of, rather than expressing the art he wanted them to hear. However, as you mentioned, not having to pay for it ourselves was much easier. Taking a year and a half to record an album out of our own pockets was much harder than just recording an album in two months with the money received from Patreon.

In the end, I guess it just comes down to what works best for the content creator. I 100% agree with your point of view and I am very ecstatic that you responded. Thank you.

My question to you, as a seasoned game developer is: Why aren't these games mainstream? Why can't I buy games like this through Xbox live and play on my big screen? Why are the big named companies anti-Adult Gaming?

It's not like their games don't have sex, and I would argue that perhaps my country needs more exposure to sex. We are wound-up so fucking tight and all we want to do is just blow each other away with automatic guns. It's okay to show someone being blown-up and diced up into a million pieces in a game, but god forbid there's a little sexy time.

Anyway, thanks again for replying.

 

[Supertimes4321]

I'm new to developing porn games but I've been writing erotica (i.e. porn) for more than twenty years and recently turned commercial so I'll allow myself to comment.

The creator's sole "creative lighthouse" must be based on their own internal voice. You are your own guide. You are your own north star. You are you own compass. There must be a drive inside you. All major decisions must be made by the creator(s) with fans/followers/backers' opinions only limited to very specific issues.

I don't believe that good creative products can be created by satisfying every wish of fans or backers. It's OK to read their requests and opinions and be influenced but that's it. There's a big difference between being influenced and attempting to cater to every wish.

From time to time I see new developers in this forum posting posts and polls asking "what genre do you want to see?" trying to write a game covering popular genres. To put it very mildly, this is the wrong way to start any creative process. Being creative is about what you want to create not about what you think other may find popular.

Great points being made here. I understand the desire to make everyone happy (New Star Wars Films...), but in the end I think you just have to stay the course and do what you think is best. I think about the Nirvana Unplugged Concert. MTV was losing their shit over Kurt's request and what he had planned for the night. However, in the end, the Artist was right. The covers, the setting, and the approach were all what made that concert iconic.

If you don't mind me asking, what kind of erotica did you write? Do you mean you wrote for movies? Or did you write books/comix? I am just a little curious is all and if you do not wish to disclose, no big deal.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[Supertimes4321]

Good part of your question has been answered, so I'll answer this one:
"Why are so many developers listening to the general public and kowtowing to the various voices objecting to their decisions throughout the creative process?" from my point of view.

When you are developing something, that idea is closed in your mind and your mind alone, and that often means you are unable to see its faults or ways to improve or do better.
Being open to the general public means you get the chance to read things you never thought about, or different ways to see the same thing you are attempting to do.
When it comes to ideas, it is no different than "brainstorming", when it comes to creative things, public's input is a small goldmine.

Of course you need to be able to accept criticism, have an open mind and be willing to change, and of course be willing to say "no" sometimes when their idea is far off than your general plan.
In short, the general public shouldn't drive your cart, but give suggestions on a better path to take to reach the destination you want.

I agree with this as well. Yes, being open to criticism and being able to adapt is key, but as you said as well, in the end you can't make everyone happy. Good points.

Thanks for replying.

 

[Supertimes4321]

Monkey makes a game and shows it to people. People give him bananas. Monkey like bananas. People demand monkey makes game the way they like it, or maybe no more bananas from them. Monkey don't want to lose bananas, so he does was people tell him to do.

Exaggerated, I know, but the point is there: Developers fear that their audience might pull away from their game, taking their financial support with them. The thing is, this often changes the game and makes it different from what bright the audience there in the first place, so half the audience ends up leaving anyway.
You simply will never be able to please everyone. It's a war that can't be won. Developers would do best to take in advice and critique, but largely stick to their own vision.

Excellent point. Money does tend to push folks to play-it-safe. Also, I wish someone would make a KOTOR movie. Or, maybe at least porno movie/game!

 

[Agent HK47]

Excellent point. Money does tend to push folks to play-it-safe. Also, I wish someone would make a KOTOR movie. Or, maybe at least porno movie/game!

KOTOR movie? Disney owns the rights to that and they are the last company I would entrust with making a movie about KOTOR at this point. Do you want to see Revan as a black, pansexual, transgender feminist? I don't even dare think what they would do to my beloved HK-47 (hey, that name sounds familar )
I am actively hoping that KOTOR will never be made into a movie, because I do not believe it will be done correctly. But this is Disney we are talking about, and they are on a crusade to destroy everything awesome about SW, so you will probably get your movie before too long, and I will end up crying.

 

[Doorknob22]

If you don't mind me asking, what kind of erotica did you write? Do you mean you wrote for movies? Or did you write books/comix? I am just a little curious is all and if you do not wish to disclose, no big deal.

Thanks for the reply.

I write erotic stories in Hebrew and sell them on Smashwords.com. If you can read Hebrew my site can be found

You must be registered to see the links

and my Smashwords page is

You must be registered to see the links

.

I have somewhat unique way of selling my books/chapters. I post everything for free on two weeks intervals, there are no tiers or pay walls or anything, but readers who want to can purchase chapters in advance. And it works very well.

 

[Trinian]

I'm a new developer, hopefully a few weeks away from an initial 0.1 release of my game. (Been working on it for about 8 months,) so this thread was useful, especially the part about not letting backers dictate the creative direction of the project.

Also, hi al!

 

[Droid Productions]

My question to you, as a seasoned game developer is: Why aren't these games mainstream? Why can't I buy games like this through Xbox live and play on my big screen? Why are the big named companies anti-Adult Gaming?

It's not like their games don't have sex, and I would argue that perhaps my country needs more exposure to sex. We are wound-up so fucking tight and all we want to do is just blow each other away with automatic guns. It's okay to show someone being blown-up and diced up into a million pieces in a game, but god forbid there's a little sexy time.

Historically, Walmart wouldn't stock anything that was Adults Only (they'd still stock automatic guns). Nintendo was more family oriented, and the Nintendo Seal of Approval wouldn't get given to anything that wasn't family friendly. While there definitely were erotic games on the Sony Playstation, they weren't usually sold to the West, as it was perceived as puritanical (the 80s Moral Majority Panic didn't help).

If you recall GTA III: San Andrea (which was rated 18), you had a huge uproar over

You must be registered to see the links

, a cut feature that modders restored where you could have pixelated sex with your girlfriends. Sex=bad, shooting cops and setting hookers on fire=good.

Over time that relaxed; we got more erotic stuff creeping into the game, and places like Steam started welcoming adult games onto it's store. We started seeing erotic scenes show up in AAA games (like with the Witcher and Cyberpunk 2077), and new funding ways to grow the indie games industry.

Now things seem to be changing again, as a

You must be registered to see the links

. I'm hoping it won't affect Steam and Patreon, but you can be certain that some dried up swamp-monster at the NYT is right now 'planning an article' about how Steam objectifies and demeans women. We'll see how long they stand strong against this.

 

[Supertimes4321]

KOTOR movie? Disney owns the rights to that and they are the last company I would entrust with making a movie about KOTOR at this point. Do you want to see Revan as a black, pansexual, transgender feminist? I don't even dare think what they would do to my beloved HK-47 (hey, that name sounds familar )
I am actively hoping that KOTOR will never be made into a movie, because I do not believe it will be done correctly. But this is Disney we are talking about, and they are on a crusade to destroy everything awesome about SW, so you will probably get your movie before too long, and I will end up crying.

All good reasons for not wanting to see KOTOR materialized into a film. I really enjoyed the Knights of the Old Republic Comics. Dark Horse did a fantastic job with that series and I do think BioWare did a wonderful job adapting those comics into a game. It would have been amazing to see the Jedi Civil War and the Hyperspace Wars. KOTOR does touch on all of those events, but it would have be amazing (in my opinion) to see Exar Kun's story, and then Ulic Qel-Droma's fall and redemption play out in a game/film/animated series. However, too much power is a bad thing... Disney!

I know this might be sacrilegious, but I re-watched the original trilogy recently (unmolested versions mind you) and I came to the conclusion that Empire is really the only good movie in that Franchise. I almost feel like what people did with Lucas's universe in the comics and books were better than what he accomplished on film. Of course the special effects and cinematography is groundbreaking, but I'm just not as captivated by the overall story anymore. Perhaps this has a lot to do with the Disney machine, or maybe I am just growing to be a disgruntled old man, like Stan Marsh. HAHA.

Question for you:
Was Revan a man or woman?

KOTOR II seems to suggest woman. But then again, maybe the Bastila's story makes less sense if Revan is a woman? Could explain the tension with Malak though, especially since the big theme of Star Wars is, "Fascism/Totalitarianism bad! Liberalism/Democratic-Republicanism Good!"

The theme of Fascism vs. Liberalism is lost on Disney. Fascist are not big on Feminism and women being placed into positions of power in their Imperialist States. Sure there were female Nazi Officers, but they were more relegated to the Concentration Camps and the processing of Women into those camps. I could be wrong about this, but Italian, German, Spanish, and Japanese propaganda and laws were very hegemonic and sexist. Women were not to be equals and "Undesirables" were not to be viewed as citizens, or ideal to the nationalist views of the State. The entire purpose of the Rebellion and Republic in general was to demonstrate their inclusiveness and gender equality, which would fit into the mode of Post-WWII Liberalism.

 

[Supertimes4321]

I write erotic stories in Hebrew and sell them on Smashwords.com. If you can read Hebrew my site can be found

You must be registered to see the links

and my Smashwords page is

You must be registered to see the links

.

I have somewhat unique way of selling my books/chapters. I post everything for free on two weeks intervals, there are no tiers or pay walls or anything, but readers who want to can purchase chapters in advance. And it works very well.

Very interesting. I wish I could read in Hebrew and really any other language other than English. Sadly, the educational system I grew-up in (90s-2000s), was very and still is very ethnocentric. I really need to learn Spanish, but it's hard to force myself to be disciplined enough.

Interesting business model. Kind of reminds me of what Radiohead did with their album Rainbows.

 

[Supertimes4321]

I'm a new developer, hopefully a few weeks away from an initial 0.1 release of my game. (Been working on it for about 8 months,) so this thread was useful, especially the part about not letting backers dictate the creative direction of the project.

Also, hi al!

Fantastic! I'm glad it was useful. I hope it continues and I appreciate folks contributing. Like I said before, I know nothing and was curious myself. I must say, this site seems to have some wonderful folks.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[Agent HK47]

Question for you:
Was Revan a man or woman?

KOTOR II seems to suggest woman. But then again, maybe the Bastila's story makes less sense if Revan is a woman? Could explain the tension with Malak though, especially since the big theme of Star Wars is, "Fascism/Totalitarianism bad! Liberalism/Democratic-Republicanism Good!"

As for what is widely regarded as "canon" Revan is a man, as far I know. However, I have completed the first game about 10 times and only once of those was with a male char, so, I guess I see Revan more as a woman.

 

[Supertimes4321]

Historically, Walmart wouldn't stock anything that was Adults Only (they'd still stock automatic guns). Nintendo was more family oriented, and the Nintendo Seal of Approval wouldn't get given to anything that wasn't family friendly. While there definitely were erotic games on the Sony Playstation, they weren't usually sold to the West, as it was perceived as puritanical (the 80s Moral Majority Panic didn't help).

If you recall GTA III: San Andrea (which was rated 18), you had a huge uproar over

You must be registered to see the links

, a cut feature that modders restored where you could have pixelated sex with your girlfriends. Sex=bad, shooting cops and setting hookers on fire=good.

Over time that relaxed; we got more erotic stuff creeping into the game, and places like Steam started welcoming adult games onto it's store. We started seeing erotic scenes show up in AAA games (like with the Witcher and Cyberpunk 2077), and new funding ways to grow the indie games industry.

Now things seem to be changing again, as a

You must be registered to see the links

. I'm hoping it won't affect Steam and Patreon, but you can be certain that some dried up swamp-monster at the NYT is right now 'planning an article' about how Steam objectifies and demeans women. We'll see how long they stand strong against this.

Interesting. Now is it all Western Nations who are anti-porn games, or just the United States? I feel like Western Europe would have become more inclusive and open to this market, given that the best Indie Films to come out of Europe over the last 20 years are borderline pornographic (at least by US standards).

We love our guns in the US, but we hate sex. I wonder if this to do with our Anti-Feminist ethos, which seems to always find its way into this weird distorted and bastardized stance on gender equality. Most of the time I see men posing as this weird moral champion to protect the sanctity of women's character, but in reality it is a more insidious means to undermine their civic, reproductive, and natural rights. Men can find all kinds pills to make our dicks harder and bigger, but god forbid we allow women to obtain all forms of birth control, safe-abortions, libido enhancing pills, and overall control over their bodies.

Anyway, great insight. Thank again!