Choices in vn's (A poll)

[Naxos]

When playing VN's what kind of choices appeal to you the most. I've seen people lamenting the lack of "meaningful" choices and I've seen people lamenting the choice between an apple or orange at the start could determine if your MC lives, dies, the world ends or the harem you pursue evaporates like mist.

So to break down the choices with a bit more meaning than the options allow.

1 Simple - want sum fuk? : Pretty obvious. Do you want to bang this LI? Or do you want to pursue this LI type questions. Basically no walk through required at all.

2 "Meaningful" but kinda obvious choices where I can get it wrong : Slightly more complex than the first. Can trigger flags to open and close routes or give/take points needed to open a route. Often presented as choices like "Tell her the truth" / "Lie to her" or "Let her win" / "Try your hardest to win" and depending on the answer you often get a visual queue, e.g. +5 love or +5 hate etc or "she liked that answer" or "she's glad you didn't act like a little bitch and let her win". You might need walk through to help on this.

Finally for the masochists.
3 I'm a psychopath & the choice of pizza/burger at the start to decide the MC lives/dies in the ending: These choices give nothing or almost nothing away and could be something as silly as choosing wine or beer on the first date that determines if the LI ends up with you or not. Often the consequences are only felt waaaaaaaaaay down the line forcing you to have multiple saves or have to reload from several updates ago. Good luck getting a good ending without a walk through and even then you'll probably have to restart a couple times.

A combination of them - explain below. I think that is a pretty clear question. A combination of any or all of the above.

 

[PopotoProductions]

I don't think these choices are exclusive to each other and a game can feature all three at once, provided they do it well.

1 Simple - want sum fuk?
This gives the player some agency in the simplest way possible. If your game have some wild kinks you know everyone won't be fond of, giving an option to skip it is the safest bet.

2 "Meaningful" but kinda obvious choices where I can get it wrong
As long as it's not too obtuse and the "right" answers fit the story and characters, that can work and give the player some sense of reward, like they had to put some work

3 I'm a psychopath & the choice of pizza/burger at the start to decide the MC lives/dies in the ending
To me, this can work only in a short game with skippable text, where starting a new game doesn't feel like a punishment.

In my own game, the only important choice is when you meet a character. They ask for your help and each of the answer is labeled "Romance Route" or "Friendship Route" so you know what you're signing for. After that, the player is regularly prompted for their opinion and given answer choices, but that's more about offering different dialogues and less about giving or taking "affection points".

Like, if a character was to ask you 'Does this dress fit me ?" (example unrelated to my game) and you have a choice between "It looks gorgeous on you" or "Don't you want to try that other one too ?", each answer is valid and doesn't hurt your relationship. When you take out the "affection points" system, the player stops having to guess which option would work best and starts choosing for themselves which one they would say in that situation.

In my game, wrong choices don't affect the relationships and whether you can fuck the LI, but rather make progress slightly harder (an intel is more expensive because you failed the informant's test, you fight more enemies because you angered the bandits, etc.)

As for longer choices, I like keeping track of some minor choices made early on in order to mention them much later when the player forgot about it. That can give some substance to the player's actions, especially if it's a LI praising them for how they handled a problem back then.

 

[anne O'nymous]

When playing VN's what kind of choices appeal to you the most.

None of those you listed.

I've seen people lamenting the lack of "meaningful" choices and I've seen people lamenting the choice between an apple or orange at the start could determine if your MC lives, dies, the world ends or the harem you pursue evaporates like mist.

You seem to assume that both are opposite, while in fact they both address a different issue.

In the first case, the issue is obvious. People prefer choices that will change, in a way or another, the story, to those that are purely narrative.
By example, for the question "what do you want for breakfast", a meaningful choice would imply that starting now the character will prepare the meal you asked. This while a purely narrative choice would only apply for that breakfast.
This being said, that example is basic, and the meaningful version is closer to a customization choice, than a purely meaningful one. This because it will not really impact the story itself, what the MC eat for breakfast being insignificant for the story. But in the same time, it provide a bit of uniqueness to the story, what is still a way to involve the player.

But in the second case, it's not the impact of the choice that is criticized, it's its opacity. The choice is important, since the story end will depend on it, but how do you know, except by loosing once because you picked the wrong answer, what is the right answer?
What peoples complaining about that kind of choice say, is that choices shouldn't be equal to flipping a coin. The player knowledge, and therefore the information gave to him through the story, as well as the formulation of the difference choice, must permit him to have an idea regarding the possible consequence of that choice.

Therefore, as I implied above, those aren't opposed thoughts regarding choices. In fact they are complementary; players who want meaningful choices also want them understandable. Be also noted that this isn't directly related to the wording used for the said choices.

Let's say that the player have the choice between going to the park or staying home. This while the consequence is that in the park the MC will meet his childhood friend who, the next day, will start a six months holidays.
The choice can perfectly be "Go to the park: yes/no ?". As long as the player know that MC's childhood will surely be there, and that MC will jump on the occasion to say that he love her, there's no issue. This even if, at that time, the player don't know that it will radically change the story.
If he goes to the park, and therefore the MC will open his heart, the girl will be faithful, and when she'll come back they'll starts to date. If he stay at home, the girl, unaware of MC's love, will find someone, and decide to stay with him.
What matter is that it's not a coin flipped. While not knowing the exact consequences, the player can guess that this choice is important. Perhaps will he be disappointed at first, expecting a torrid night of sex, but he will be less disappointed than he would by reading the game thread, and hearing people talk about the many sex scenes that appear later, but that he don't see, because he made his MC stay at home.
And all this can be achieved with a single dialog line like, "my childhood friend really like this park, she will surely be there a last time before she goes on holiday. I should jump on the occasion to tell her that I'm in love since so many years." If the player isn't interested by that character, he will not goes to the park. But if he is, it will goes, to be sure to not miss something.

For me, this is the choices I want to see.

I don't care if they decide if the MC will have the girl or not, or if they decide of the end of the game. All I ask for, is that I can have a relatively good guess of the consequences.
And, once again, this even if the consequences is subtle. If a choice will make the MC looks like a jerk, it doesn't matters if there's direct consequences or not. I'm smart enough to know that, if I make my MC looks like a jerk too often, people will like him less, what will, soon or later, have consequences on the story. But I want to know, or at least be able to guess, that "this choice" is the jerk one.

To take an example, imagine a grinding incest game where the MC have, at the start of each day, the possibility to do some chores in the house. The consequence will not be direct, it's a grinding game after all. But the consequence will still be obvious; the mother will be happy, and that the happier she is, the higher are MC's chances to bang her.
But if it's by going home immediately after school, that you actually raise MC's chances, while doing the chores is what trigger MC's submissive route, it need to be said, or at least strongly hinted.

 

[Naxos]

I don't think my choices are contrary to your responses but at least in my mind more of a layer above or a maybe even just a different way.

<snip>

Let's say that the player have the choice between going to the park or staying home. This while the consequence is that in the park the MC will meet his childhood friend who, the next day, will start a six months holidays.
The choice can perfectly be "Go to the park: yes/no ?". As long as the player know that MC's childhood will surely be there, and that MC will jump on the occasion to say that he love her, there's no issue. This even if, at that time, the player don't know that it will radically change the story.
If he goes to the park, and therefore the MC will open his heart, the girl will be faithful, and when she'll come back they'll starts to date. If he stay at home, the girl, unaware of MC's love, will find someone, and decide to stay with him.
What matter is that it's not a coin flipped. While not knowing the exact consequences, the player can guess that this choice is important. Perhaps will he be disappointed at first, expecting a torrid night of sex, but he will be less disappointed than he would by reading the game thread, and hearing people talk about the many sex scenes that appear later, but that he don't see, because he made his MC stay at home.
And all this can be achieved with a single dialog line like, "my childhood friend really like this park, she will surely be there a last time before she goes on holiday. I should jump on the occasion to tell her that I'm in love since so many years." If the player isn't interested by that character, he will not goes to the park. But if he is, it will goes, to be sure to not miss something.

For me, this is the choices I want to see. <snip>

If I'm understanding you correctly it's a choice like this example of going to the park that you like. The way you describe it is what I'd consider one of those "meaningful but kinda obvious type" choices I mentioned, you just phrased it a hell of lot better then I did. That said I also kept my options to rather broad strokes with the question, so it could be a lot more obvious or not.

I don't know if you mean something different but from what I read there, it's exactly a type of choice I had in mind with the "meaningful but obvious"

I snipped it out of your reply but there was a VN that did something like the breakfast choice. The LI offers you a cup of tea or coffee and you have several options how you want it. There after everyday when that LI made you tea/coffee, she referred to it as per your choice. e.g Tea with milk and honey or Coffee black no sugar

I don't think these choices are exclusive to each other and a game can feature all three at once, provided they do it well.

1 Simple - want sum fuk?
This gives the player some agency in the simplest way possible. If your game have some wild kinks you know everyone won't be fond of, giving an option to skip it is the safest bet.

2 "Meaningful" but kinda obvious choices where I can get it wrong
As long as it's not too obtuse and the "right" answers fit the story and characters, that can work and give the player some sense of reward, like they had to put some work

3 I'm a psychopath & the choice of pizza/burger at the start to decide the MC lives/dies in the ending
To me, this can work only in a short game with skippable text, where starting a new game doesn't feel like a punishment.

Of course none of those choices are exclusive, but there are VN's that only feature the first, or second or third and there are some that feature a mix.

When I made the poll and did the post, I was would have voted option 1, but I didn't want to vote in my own poll. When I came back to see these replies I realised the way I set it up, i could only see the results by voting, but having read both responses I released I prefer a mix of 1 and 2.

There is a VN I'd played that relied one the third option and at choices where rather opaque and you had to make two very specific choices other wise something very bad happened to a LI and it was game over. The choices where something like talk to LI A or talk to LI B and in a different scene, shake his hand or, don't shake his hand. If you chose anything other than talk to LI A and don't shake his hand, then LI B was kidnapped, raped and murdered or something equally as stupid. There was no indication in either choice as to what the right one was. There was no hint or suggestion talking to one LI over the other would lead to something bad happening. In hindsight it might be obvious that not talking to a LI might make her pissed of and decide to leave which opens the door to something bad, but till that point there was no hinting or foreshadowing that could happen.

In my own game, the only important choice is when you meet a character. They ask for your help and each of the answer is labeled "Romance Route" or "Friendship Route" so you know what you're signing for. After that, the player is regularly prompted for their opinion and given answer choices, but that's more about offering different dialogues and less about giving or taking "affection points".

Like, if a character was to ask you 'Does this dress fit me ?" (example unrelated to my game) and you have a choice between "It looks gorgeous on you" or "Don't you want to try that other one too ?", each answer is valid and doesn't hurt your relationship. When you take out the "affection points" system, the player stops having to guess which option would work best and starts choosing for themselves which one they would say in that situation.

In my game, wrong choices don't affect the relationships and whether you can fuck the LI, but rather make progress slightly harder (an intel is more expensive because you failed the informant's test, you fight more enemies because you angered the bandits, etc.)

As for longer choices, I like keeping track of some minor choices made early on in order to mention them much later when the player forgot about it. That can give some substance to the player's actions, especially if it's a LI praising them for how they handled a problem back then.

This is what I do like. There is another VN on the site that does some similar stuff, you have dialogue options that affect the dialogue and the characters personality so you can give a serious reply, a joking one or a flirty style response. It doesn't affect how the LI's see or feel about you, but it reflected in their reply. There are other choices in the game where it's clear and made clear that this opens or closes routes, or leads to a sex scene or not.

My absolute bane when it comes to choices is false choices or no option choices. Examples are being given the choice to "go to the park" or "stay at home" but if you select stay at home, the MC says something, "who am I kidding, I'm going to the park" and you end up going anyway, or stupid "single choice" options, like "Answer the phone" when there is no other option or no way to proceed without answering the phone. I don't find it adds immersion but rather breaks the flow.

 

[anne O'nymous]

I don't think my choices are contrary to your responses but at least in my mind more of a layer above or a maybe even just a different way.

It's not because my answer isn't among the offered choices, that it's necessarily something opposed to the said choices.

If I'm understanding you correctly it's a choice like this example of going to the park that you like.

Yes and no, precisely because it was an example. Reason why even your "meaningful but kinda obvious" do not correspond to what I have in mind.

Firstly, the choice don't necessarily need to be meaningful or, if you prefer, its meaning don't need to be impactful.
I have nothing against purely cosmetic choices like the breakfast example. It add a bit of depth in the game, and as I said a feeling of uniqueness. Like I don't really care if there's purely narrative choices, as long as there's not a abusive number of them; this too, to some extend, add a bit of uniqueness.
It's important, from my point of view, that, if there's choices, some of them are meaningful, but they don't have to all be it. It's like for everything, a bit of variety is always better than uniformity. And some meaningless or purely narrative choices time to time permit to not artificially put pressure on the player's shoulders; he don't feel the need to weight the pro/con each time there's a choice.

Secondly, "obvious" is a really strong word here.
Perhaps is it because I played too many stupid games, but when I hear about obvious choices I picture something like "fuck her" Vs "send her to hell". I'm not in preschool anymore, and since so long, I don't need someone to hold my hand and guide me to the right direction. I'm more on the side of "guessable" choices.
Let's say that MC have a date with a girl, and there's a choice: "Buy flowers", "Buy candies", "Buy nothing". The third choice is obvious, MC will looks like a jerk. But to know if it's better to buy flowers or candies, you'll need to remember how often she said that she like flowers. It's not obvious, but also not opaque since you can guess it if you cared a bit about the story.

In fact, the more a choice is obvious, the less meaningful it is.
There's exceptions of course, like by example when it come to pursuing a girl or not, or to liking "this kind of content". But those exceptions put aside, yes, too obvious choices are meaningless, because they aren't real choices.
There's a game that is champion for this, where all choices are like "of course I'll go with you" Vs "I prefer to masturbate with sand paper"; and it's a real example, not a made up one...
Choices like that shouldn't exist. Not because the options are stupid, but because no one will pick the wrong answer. And the instant everyone will pick the same option, there's no reason to put a choice here?

 

[fxaax29]

just want to enjoy every game not surrfer so I chose 1

 

[Doorknob22]

IMHO, "real" choices, i.e. choices with significantly different content are bad for number two main reasons.

1. You force the the player to either play the game more than once to see all the content or force them to miss content. I think these are two bad choices. And no: "save here and come later" is a terrible solution if you have more than 1-2 "real" forks in your story.

2. You invest resources into content some players may never see.

In my experience, even in mainstream gaming where they have much more resources than us, you'll rarely see "real" choices, again, choices which lead to significantly different content.

Instead, the logical and economical approach to choices should be moral/attitude type of choices. Do you want to bribe the guard or punch him in the face? Do you want to charm the girl to get into her panties or lie to her? That not to say that content needs to be 100% identical in both choices, but this way the story moves forward, you use your resources efficiently and you don't force the players to lose content or replay. Oh, and in porn games: consider adding a "skip sex" option with some or all of the girls. Some players may dislike a character you created and may not appreciate being "forced" to sleep with her.

 

[Erosoft]

Choices should fundamentally be thought-provoking and fun. In a dialogue, a good choice could be one that relies on the player's prior knowledge and information gathered from the game world to make an informed decision. If the player failed to observe, discover, or realize something about the world, they may make a poor choice. On the other hand, the player will be rewarded for exploring and being clever.

2 "Meaningful" but kinda obvious choices where I can get it wrong : Slightly more complex than the first. Can trigger flags to open and close routes or give/take points needed to open a route. Often presented as choices like "Tell her the truth" / "Lie to her" or "Let her win" / "Try your hardest to win" and depending on the answer you often get a visual queue, e.g. +5 love or +5 hate etc or "she liked that answer" or "she's glad you didn't act like a little bitch and let her win". You might need walk through to help on this.

These types of choices are generally good, but the "correct answer" needs to be telegraphed to the player before the interaction occurs. For example, if this dialogue occurs with multiple NPCs, the "let her win" would work better on NPCs that act demure and passive, while the "try your hardest to win" would work better on NPCs with more competitive or dominant personalities.