Crypto as alternative to Payment Processors

[matpneumatos]

Hi everyone!
I'm matpneumatos and I'm a game developer and forum user.

I wanted to start this post to discuss the possible solutions to the current censorship that is being done by payment processors (Mastercard, Visa, Paypal, etc)
As you are probably aware, all of this started with the "Collective Shout" group claiming responsibility for steam taking down certain games.

While this group is a problem on itself, easily offended people will always exist and that we cannot change, if they go down, others will replace them.
The real problem here is Payment Processors. These are the tools that the censors are using for their agendas. You already know they are a monopoly, a cartel even.

And this is where I think we can more easily act. and by easy I mean, barely possible. This is a david vs Goliath kind of thing.
There is the legal and regulatory way, of us complaining to our governments, specially in the US about their practices. And a lot of people are sharing petitions and asking of US citizens to support the H.R.987 - Fair Access to Banking Act

You must be registered to see the links

And while I fully support those efforts (I have signed and sent every email I could), I think we should attack the issue from all possible angles.

My proposition is to start using Crypto

And I know what many people will say, this is full of scammers and annoying people. And you'll be right! But it is an amazing tool that has been able to keep many controversial sites alive.
We can use it to survive this and keep the NSFW genre alive. Because let's be honest. Even if Payment processors revert their decisions. Would you ever trust them again?

Let's take a look at a big player, Probably the first victim of Payment Processors.
PORNHUB




They have been taken only bitcoin for their premium service for ages.

I understand the skepticism due to the many scams you surely heard of regarding crypto. But these are almost always about some shitcoin or misuse of crypto.
We just need to inform everyone that shitcoins are what the name suggest, shit, do not mess with anything that is not established coins if you don't know what you're doing.

And if you don't like crypto. Then you can buy the amount of crypto needed for your LEWD game and don't hold it, spend it immediately.

Now, The biggest proof of my point I think is F95zone itself. This forum accepts crypto donations if you go to the "DONATE" tab and I think that is an awesome idea!

I would say a good next step could be to allow devs to post their donation addresses in an intuitive way like they do with Patreon or Subsribestar



Kinda like this but better!

I think the best solution would be to have a crypto itch or patreon alternative that can handle monthly donations as well. But this could be a good start and it is the only remotely feasible way to boycott payment processors.

Now. I'm gonna be honest, I would prefer for payment processors to revert their changes and to start accepting everything. But we most likely will still have banned genres, mainly incest. I don't know why are people so against incest, but that's not the point. And even if the specific genre you like makes it on the good list. What makes you think they won't change their minds later? No. We can't trust them. And this is the only way I can see to fight back.

I'm a very small dev, so all I have is a very small rep. But I'm willing to put it on the line to push some change. Responsibly of course. I will never push for shitcoins and would only use stablished coins like BTC, or LTC which has the lowest transaction fees.

Anyway. These are just my dumb ideas and I really want to be helpful here, since all this drama jus hasn't let me focus on my dev work. I have been focusing all my energy on this BS, but I really want to go back to work.

 

[MissCougar]

I think it would be fine except there's no easy way to get it and no easy way to transform it back into a fiat currency.

So once you have it you can't do much with it except other online stuff that uses that specific crypto type. And you probably can't pay your staff with it because they'd have a hard time living life with a digital wallet full of bitcoins when they need to eat and pay bills and their real wallet is empty.

If you know how to solve that issue and make it mainstream and integrated, you could pull it off?

 

[DuniX]

It's better then nothing but it's ultimately a number's game.

 

[orellion]

It's better then nothing but it's ultimately a number's game.

Yeah, only 14% of the population own some in the US, and even that's higher than just about every other country. Would people be willing to make the first time plunge and buy some bitcoin to support an adult dev? Doubtful, they'd just download the game here instead. ChatGTP predicts 30% will own some in 2029, that's a much better number for a future bitcoin only Patreon.

 

[dreas]

I think it would be fine except there's no easy way to get it and no easy way to transform it back into a fiat currency.

So once you have it you can't do much with it except other online stuff that uses that specific crypto type. And you probably can't pay your staff with it because they'd have a hard time living life with a digital wallet full of bitcoins when they need to eat and pay bills and their real wallet is empty.

If you know how to solve that issue and make it mainstream and integrated, you could pull it off?

This is the core issue people miss with crypto currency its all well and good saying I will give u X for Y but if X can't be used for day to day stuff like rent, bills, food and whatever else it isn't much use to your average person and honestly that's just one issue just at what happened in El Salvador where they tried to make bitcoin an official currency/legal tender that shops would have to accept and its been a failure.

I get wanting to circumvent these shit companies but I honestly think for most people crypto isn't the answer its far better to try and use other payment processers where you can, and even more importantly support efforts to make these companies be classed as what america calls common carriers or whatever your local version is which means they literally aren't allowed to do this sort of thing.

Hopefully the implications of actions like this and the clear show of power visa and mastercard hold will encourage more nations to go after them like japan has done.

 

[Yukariin]

or LTC which has the lowest transaction fees.

what is the transaction fee?
if i want to make a $5 transfer, how much on top of that is the fee going to be?
EDIT: i'm googling and apparently LTC is $0.04, which is acceptable. BTC in comparison is over $7 and is completely unacceptable.

 

[HornyNinja]

Hey remember how millions of people got scammed couple years ago? Let's all get scammed again because reasons

 

[alibaba34]

I think it would be fine except there's no easy way to get it and no easy way to transform it back into a fiat currency.

So once you have it you can't do much with it except other online stuff that uses that specific crypto type. And you probably can't pay your staff with it because they'd have a hard time living life with a digital wallet full of bitcoins when they need to eat and pay bills and their real wallet is empty.

If you know how to solve that issue and make it mainstream and integrated, you could pull it off?

Not true friend. You can use stable coins. Look them up. It is almost as stable as fiat and you can use it just like fiat.

 

[DuniX]

Not true friend. You can use stable coins. Look them up. It is almost as stable as fiat and you can use it just like fiat.

Until it's gone, like fiat.

 

[c3p0]

Crypto for a market who is controlled by Visa & Mastercard (90%)?
In my humble opinion: Not an option.

I get wanting to circumvent these shit companies but I honestly think for most people crypto isn't the answer its far better to try and use other payment processers where you can, and even more importantly support efforts to make these companies be classed as what america calls common carriers or whatever your local version is which means they literally aren't allowed to do this sort of thing.

If you used them, then you are one of their customers. So let the company know that you don't support their action. If enough do that, things might change.

Not true friend. You can use stable coins. Look them up. It is almost as stable as fiat and you can use it just like fiat.

So, random shops accept them? The landlord does? The water and energy company does? As long as they don't directly accept crypto at the last "mile" you still go over a normal bank or payment processor, you do know that?

 

[MissCougar]

Not true friend. You can use stable coins. Look them up. It is almost as stable as fiat and you can use it just like fiat.

So, random shops accept them? The landlord does? The water and energy company does? As long as they don't directly accept crypto at the last "mile" you still go over a normal bank or payment processor, you do know that?

This.

It's about adoption and access. If you can't pay your bills with it, and buy necessities you need when you need them, it's useless.

 

[dreas]

Not true friend. You can use stable coins. Look them up. It is almost as stable as fiat and you can use it just like fiat.

Lots of the stable coins have their own issues like the terra/luna debacle back in 2022. Hell even tether is deeply questionable changing their claims from having $1 in reserves for every tether coin in circulation to cash equivalents and then to even more opaque descriptions of its assets means there is a decent chance there is more tether in circulation then they have money to hand out meaning a run on it is not impossible even on tether one of if not the largest stable coins.

Then consider unlike bank accounts which in most modern nation have a certain level of protect if the bank goes bust there is nothing like this for stable coins or any crypto coin meaning its fair more risk to the average person.

 

[matpneumatos]

Hey remember how millions of people got scammed couple years ago? Let's all get scammed again because reasons

You don't have to get scammed if you don't hold your coins and only use it to buy stuff. I'm not arguing for crypto as a mean to make gains, only to use it as a payment option

 

[matpneumatos]

This.

It's about adoption and access. If you can't pay your bills with it, and buy necessities you need when you need them, it's useless.

So how do you think this forum uses it's crypto donos, or ponhub? The impossibility of converting your cypto to Fiat would be a next level of censorship, and we're not there yet. We might be in the future, but these are the tools we have now. It is very easy to convert crypto fo fiat.

 

[MissCougar]

So how do you think this forum uses it's crypto donos, or ponhub? The impossibility of converting your cypto to Fiat would be a next level of censorship, and we're not there yet. We might be in the future, but these are the tools we have now. It is very easy to convert crypto fo fiat.

If that's how they get donations I'm sure it's a convoluted process they have developed successfully over time.

This won't apply to average Sally game developer getting paid in crypto and having to transfer that to fiat to pay her staff or herself. Over time I'm sure they can build a process, but if it's not easy you're going to lose people.

Nobody ever stopped anyone from doing that even today- but it's not done yet, or if it is it's not a popular method.

 

[anne O'nymous]

So how do you think this forum uses it's crypto donos, [...]

By paying the hosting cost.

Do you really think that F95 walk the streets with "I own the biggest porn games piracy forum" printed on his shirt?

 

[Ennoch]

Do you really think that F95 walk the streets with "I own the biggest porn games piracy forum" printed on his shirt?

Yes... ?

 

[Count Morado]

By paying the hosting cost.

Do you really think that F95 walk the streets with "I own the biggest porn games piracy forum" printed on his shirt?

 

[IchigoRadiance]

As somebody that has been watching what the payment processors have been doing over the past few years, it seems pretty clear that the days where one could easily buy these sorts of adult games is numbered. The market for these games is being murdered by the payment processors.

That said, I do think there could be a way forward for a smaller niche market to survive. Any platform that sells them will need to deal with the issue of payment processors when they form, and probably many times as they exist.

It seems that right now people have two options. 1.) Look for a payment processor that A.) doesn't rely on services like VISA/Mastercard/Paypal for it's backend, and B.) Doesn't have any issues with adult content themselves. 2.) Figure out how to make crypto a viable payment option.

IMO, the first one sounds more appealing, but is likely to give more headaches in the long run. Over time, payment processors in general have gotten stricter and stricter, mostly due to moral/ideological reasons, but also partially due to government pressure and slightly due to risk factors (things like chargebacks). And it doesn't help that a lot of the earlier censorship was justified by many of the same people that are now complaining. So at the start, it was just adult games, and of those adult games it started with more extreme or taboo fetishes. Then it expanded to less extreme fetishes. And after that it expanded beyond adult content itself. When Niconico was hit, it was pretty clear that it was not really about adult content. Then when the general manga site was hit, that further confirmed it. Finally when they hit an otaku dating site, it made it clear that the whole time the pressure was mostly coming from an ideological angle. It was clear that Visa/Mastercard/Paypal, and others were saying "We don't like the content your country produces, and we would rather you not even be allowed to procreate."

So when the censorship spread to the west, it was not surprising. People that hadn't been paying attention thinking this is new, or others wondering why they are now getting things they care about censored, they thought it was just those gooner games in Japan that were going to get hit. And it's not just adult games, as it also affected some horror games too.

Tangeant aside, the reason I think number 1 is more likely to cause issues is because over time our options will dwindle. These companies want to do business with companies like Visa/Mastercard and so will want to stay on their good terms. That's assuming they don't already use their backend already. In Japan, when the censorship started, some tried to fight it, but most realized it was a fool's errand and just cut their losses. Their sales to western customers dropped dramatically, but they survived because they have their own backends like JCB and a lot of people still pay with cash for a lot of things. They also still have physical adult media that is common, which is not really the case in the west.

So I think most likely sites that try to be alternatives will either try out crypto, or they will try out the other options until they either get forced out of business by constantly being forced to switch, or they will switch to crypto at some point. We can rip the bandaid off now, or do it slowly, but it will probably need to come off sooner or later. If neither of these things happen, then it's likely the market will die out eventually. Payment processors are not going to let up, and I don't think government will intervene here either. Platforms like Patreon and Steam will get stricter to comply with payment processors (Patreon already was pretty strict already), and any new platform that starts out more open will eventually get stricter as they get bigger and more on the PP radar.

 

[zerfat]

It would be a good option, but the market is very limited. And even though it’s crypto, you still need to use Visa or Mastercard to buy it.