Do you think games are becoming too "mainstream?"

[kkholis]

Alternate title(s):
Are having games become largely directed by fan requests / Are games which are derived solely for profit going to kill game diversity overall?


These 3 questions all revolve around the same basic point but I think something deserves being said now to build awareness rather than wait a couple years from now when it becomes a runaway train and then it's too late to fix. Who knows, maybe it already is.
To make it clear up front, I don't like games that have fan/subscriber requests or polls because they eventually ALWAYS end up following the majority, which basically belongs to a few archetypes and shut out the rest. I prefer when a game's development has leaders that have in mind an actual story progression and a story direction, in that, they know where they want the story to go and can write around it rather than ask people for input. Because that inevitably always leads to conflict. Always.

One thing I've always admired about Japanese people are that they (largely) aren't profit driven. If they have an idea, they believe it's worth exploring and that's how we end up with marvelous things that nobody else would take a chance on. In the lewd game field, Jap games have so many subplots and fetishes/niches there even though might be just one or two games on it, that makes them unique because as long as its there, someone will discover it and someone will buy it.
In contrast, non-Japanese businessmen are not so. If something isn't profitable, it won't be worth it to even take a chance. Since, time is money after all.
This fad, in my opinion, is becoming more apparent as time goes on because more and more game 'companies' keep popping up only to get their Patreon/Subscribestar counts up and follow the same builds/fetishes that everyone wants to see because it nets them the most cash. And I'm actually seeing this now where devs, even experienced devs with a few games under their belts, taking longer and longer to finish games, as if to continue milking the proverbial teat of their subscribers rather than actually complete content. I'm even willing to go as far to bet that if we look at how many games were actually COMPLETED over the past few years, we'd find it going down, and the average length of development time of each game increased from what it used to be. Yet, the archetypes are mostly all the same and the quality isn't all that much better.

Devs are less willing to take a chance if they are depending on the income for survival. They'd just stick to the tried-and-tested ideas, which admittedly isn't their fault. And to pile on top of this, the consumers have devolved into a bunch of entitled whiny brats who only want to see what they want, and to hell with everybody else. And yes, I have heard the argument: "It's my money so I get to decide how it is spent."
Go back to the days when devs didn't communicate with anyone. They just released things. Starve the whiners of a platform to air their stupidity and just put the game you want to see out there. However you want to make your game, you go right ahead. If it's good, people will enjoy it as it is. Some feedback now and then for non-story related elements are acceptable, but nothing else. Nobody should dictate how the story is made except you. Democracy has poisoned everything to the point where we believe everything should be up to a vote (which shuts out everything except the largest group voice, even the 2nd largest group). As for the money-grabbers, I don't know of any good solution on the horizon unless they manage to price themselves out of the market, but by then they already made bank on the heads of unsuspecting souls who wait 9 months for an update consisting of 2 new scenes and some text changes.

 

[zettler]

I have been thinking the exact same thin for a good while now. Sure we get good stuff every once in a while but it its a lot that is questionable if its even a tech demo for game. Cant remember many games that i have liked that has been seen through too completion. Sure you can find gems but they are far and few between and to find a gem with a dev that makes a game he/she wants to make and not only get some money is even rarer.

 

[woody554]

not sure what exactly you mean by mainstream, but it seems to me there are almost no vanilla games. instead almost every game caters to a whole bunch of fetishes like foot fetish, ntr, futa, incest.

does listening to audience make games worse? almost invariably. the exclusions are when you missed something or made a careless choice you regret. you should never listen to anything you don't agree with after it's pointed out to you.

can that worse game sell more? possibly. good stuff is rarely widely popular. but it doesn't change shit to gold.

I'd gladly welcome a market filled with banal shit. all the more room to distinguish yourself and outshine them.

 

[Machinist]

I think there may be some survivor bias happening here. Perhaps you only notice those nice japanese games because 1. They are finished, 2. they are made by professionals, 3. they achieved success.

Most games here are not like that.

I find funny you not liking votes because they follow the majority's choice when it's the other way around (isn't that the point of a vote? But I get your point).

A vote gives the players more feelings of actually being involved and I like it, but not when it's about major things in the story, because then you are not making your game, but someone else's, and that kill your project.

 

[Paz]

not sure what exactly you mean by mainstream, but it seems to me there are almost no vanilla games. instead almost every game caters to a whole bunch of fetishes like foot fetish, ntr, futa, incest.

And that's what would probably be classed as "vanilla". I mean incest is almost a given nowadays, and the rest you list are somewhat tame as fetishes go.

On that note, while I do agree with every point the OP made, for me the blame should be shifted to the consumers, at least partly. Because many think that either games are made out of thin air or are of the mentality that "Even if I don't pay, someone else will".
There is an audience for more varied content, albeit quite smaller than the mainstream one. But that part needs to step up and put it's money where it's mouth is.

 

[SpanishPlaya_Dev]

From my point of view, I would love to create the most politically incorrect games (and other stuff too) that I could think of.

BUT, after months and months of learning and rendering, writing, sound editing... and adapting to the platforms that you have at your disposal to promote your work (and their corresponding conditions that you must follow)...

And considering a pandemic that has left the economy of many countries weakened, with companies in bankruptcy and an uncertain future for many, the risks that likely independent developers are now taking are much greater.

The same goes for "common" games, music, movies... Not many creators want to spend all their time making their own personal stuff without making any profit from it. I know artists who, due to the pandemic, have not earned anything for months and have had to change jobs until a new opportunity arises.

So "mold breaker" projects are more difficult to undertake.

ALSO, as other users have said, if most consumers prefer mainstream themes, well, there's not much you can do about it. People are free.

About Japanese games... they are made by professionals in a potential niche market. I have not seen anything like it in Europe, and I do not know if there is such a thing. F95zone and the Japanese market are different contexts, even if they sometimes seem similar.

As for the fans and their influence on development, as long as their proposals don't break the game because the developer implemented inconsistent ideas without thinking too much (you should blame the dev for that, no the fans), I don't think it's a bad thing.


Overall, I get your point, but this is something that has been going on for a looooong time in the history of the arts. Nothing new.

 

[fidless]

Games shouldn't cater to other people's whims. The game should be solely the creator's vision. Taking suggestions is all good as long as they add something to your original vision.
The other day I read a post "I'm making a game which is heavily influenced by the community" and I thought... "No. That's not why you make a game". But it's only my opinion. Generally, I lose any interest once I read stuff like that. It screams "no passion", "no my own identity".

One thing I've always admired about Japanese people are that they (largely) aren't profit driven.

That's not true. Lots of circles are making short Hentai VN just to make some kind of profit and maybe build a budget for a game they truly want to make. They're forced to make short Hentai VN because it's a stable profit and more profitable in the short run.
Do you think all those <2 hours porn VN with sex, sex, rape, tentacles, plus extra sex and cheap RPGM games which are so similar to each other are made out of passion? That's a majority of games by the amount.

 

[SliveEmerald]

I don't think adult games are becoming too mainstream, since there aren't really many companies outside Japan who are making adult games. The vast majority are individuals or small groups who are funded through Patreon.

I think there is definitely a 'mainstream' consumer though when it comes to adult games and all of the generic VN's these days which are catering to this mainstream group. I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing though, I think the larger adult gaming becomes, the better, but nowadays it does seem like some devs are trying to cash in on a generic idea.

I also think there is an ideal middle ground when it comes to involving a community with development when it comes to voting. You don't want the voting to change the underlying ideas of the game. If the community can influence a dev to radically change the game then it's plain to see the dev is doing it for the money rather than an innate passion for the work. But, I think involving the community in minor things like side plots, bonus content or something similar is not a bad thing. It gives the community a little bit of agency which is nice when you're waiting potentially multiple years for your favorite adult game to get to v1.0 if it ever even gets there.

At the end of the day, I think the best policy to follow as a dev is the same thing people tell authors: "Write what you want to read." Or in game development: "Make the game you want to play."

 

[anne O'nymous]

One thing I've always admired about Japanese people are that they (largely) aren't profit driven. [...]
In contrast, non-Japanese businessmen are not so. If something isn't profitable, it won't be worth it to even take a chance. Since, time is money after all.

Meanwhile, in real life, almost all Japanese creators are professional solely living from their game, and less than 20% of western creators earn enough to live.

 

[fidless]

Meanwhile, in real life, almost all Japanese creators are professional solely living from their game, and less than 20% of western creators earn enough to live.

I wonder how well they live when even the most popular companies barely able to sustain themselves. Even the most popular hentai companies have a hard time. Lots of them able to hire only students cheaply. Employees rotation is high, because students graduate and find a more respectable job with better pay. And the games they produce are something which probably everyone here knows. But I think that's how it goes in the whole industry. Just like with people who draws for manga. It's not perfect, hard work for little gain. Only a few able to make big.
And a result, many people join and quit once they have enough of it.
To produce 40+ hour quality VN is very risky as they rarely pay off. Only when it goes big and gets recognition which happens rarely. I read people work for years on short hentais just so they can finaly produce a proper vn.
You can correct me if I'm wrong, but this is my impression from the readings I've done about hentai game making in Japan.

 

[FeropsisFenarue]

Meanwhile, in real life, almost all Japanese creators are professional solely living from their game, and less than 20% of western creators earn enough to live.

Thats because the profit idea is bullshit. There are a metric shit-ton of Japanese VNs that have gone out of business between 1999 and now. They are almost ALL profit driven, but that doesn't stop a large degree of them from being complete shit. Some of them are just so stupidly cheap and simple (RPGM + 12 CGs and a shit ton of reused sprites) and I guess they can keep making money despite the glut of similar games.

They are so profit driven that many artists now work for shit sites like Nutaku or DMM.com as their own projects went under and they need the money. The studios that remain independent reproduce the same shit over and over again, usually only focusing on a single thing. Teen boy at a school where he goes after his classmates. Teen boy with a single mom and no one else. Teen boy with some fantasy/future setting where you have no idea who the fuck any of the characters are. Teen boy and sometimes his sister and a few classmates. They are almost all true love/romance stories anymore, and there exists maybe 1-2 companies that still make money off the filthiest shit possible, but only if you like insects and tentacles.

There used to be a huge variety of Japanese VNs, but sadly, most of the companies that made fun, flexible, multi-kink games have gone away. The stuff you find on DL.Site.com are mostly garbage so I can't count whats in them.

 

[khumak]

Adult content is still an incredibly niche market for games. I think there's a huge market for it personally but it's hard to find a way to distribute them. Other than the porn industry, no company wants the brand damage they'll get from being associated with adult content in any way.

There's no way you're going to find a porn game in a brick and mortar game store for instance. Tame stuff like Leasure Suit Larry doesn't count. There's Patreon but you're not seeing ads for the adult stuff on there, you have to specifically go looking for it. Same with Steam, there's stuff on there but it's not going to show up in your suggested list when you go to the store looking for featured links or whatever. If you're not specifically looking for it you'll never see it.

I think the big pay TV channels are a better indicator of where the market demand is. You look at HBO and see that they're one of the more popular channels out there and a lot of their stuff has tons of nudity, incest, rape, etc. So there's a big market for that stuff that's not being served. The games exist, but they're all low budget and hardly anyone knows about them.

I do think game dev tools are getting better so it's getting easier for an amateur to create a game that's actually worth playing. So I think the market will expand eventually even if we never get anything with any real production budget. You'll start seeing more games with the polish of Being a DIK or some similarly popular game that are actually complete rather than v0.0001 (abandoned) title number xxxx that crashes 10 seconds in.

I think the only way we'll ever see anything with a decent production budget is if the porn industry actually takes the plunge and really starts developing games. There are already some interactive porn movies but they mostly suck. They could just as easily hire a few actual programmers and writers and make stuff that's got more gameplay and story elements rather than just basically a choose your own adventure porno though. The upside of a porn company doing it is they wouldn't have to worry about the stigma that adult content has for almost any other company. They're already a porn company so there's no rep damage.

The only way they'll do that though is if they test the waters and see a better profit margin from a game than they do from a similar investment in a movie. It'll happen eventually I think, but who knows when?

 

[anne O'nymous]

I wonder how well they live when even the most popular companies barely able to sustain themselves. Even the most popular hentai companies have a hard time. Lots of them able to hire only students cheaply. Employees rotation is high, because students graduate and find a more respectable job with better pay.

Globally speaking, they live because they are fed by their passion, exactly like most mangaka. It's a cliche, but also a cultural reality, as long as they can do what they like, they don't care this much if they only eat ramens. Then one day they feel old and understand that it's not a life. But it's not a problem, for each one that quit, there's a junior ready to join "the dream".
In a way, artists (mangakas and game makers) are their equivalent of our sportsmen. While in the Western world, there's youth who dreams to be the next Brady or Neymar, in Japan the same would dreams to be the next successful mangaka or game maker. But obviously, like for our sportsmen, it's not even 0.1% of them who really make it big.

To produce 40+ hour quality VN is very risky as they rarely pay off.

But it's also, relatively speaking, easy. Look at the average VN they make. You've something like 3 bases sprites by character, and less than tens eyes, mouths and eyebrows. There's sometimes a little more variety for clothes, but that's all. Add a dozen of CG for the sex scenes of each girls, some backgrounds, and you're done, just rest to write the story.
It's hard works, of course, but less than most Western indie productions. Even when they are in 2D, Western indie production rely way less on sprites, because generic expressions and poses aren't something natural in our part of the world.
Which don't mean that it's something that anyone can do. While you're working on this, you don't earn money and life in Japan isn't cheap.

I read people work for years on short hentais just so they can finaly produce a proper vn.

Yeah. Mangaka don't pay much more than game maker, so if you want to live from it, it don't let you the time to works on your VN. So you do it for a long times until you've enough left to finally works on your VN.
And having a regular job while making a game isn't either an effective option. You don't have enough free time and energy to do it.
Japan is probably the country with the cultural difference that surprise the most. Not because it's the biggest gap, but because all other Western countries tend to have lowered those differences with the time. Therefore, we tend to see them as having more or less the same life than us (for those who have the chance to live in a Western country), while they in fact have a radically different one.

They are so profit driven that many artists now work for shit sites like Nutaku or DMM.com as their own projects went under and they need the money. The studios that remain independent reproduce the same shit over and over again, usually only focusing on a single thing.

I can be wrong, but from my point of view it go for VN (adult or not) in Japan, like it goes for manga in the 90's/00's ; it's mostly a product of mass consumption used to pass the time. The main consequence being that there's a big concurrence and a not so big fidelity coming from the players. Therefore, once you found something that sell, you continue with it because you've found your place in the market.
Like you said, despite being professionals, they don't earn this much, whatever they are indie, someone working for a studio, or the studio itself. In those conditions, they don't have the luxury to experiment ; they don't have the funds for that.

The same applying more or less for adult games. When you look at them closely, they are in fact relatively basic and don't need too much attention. And when they have a story, it's stay limited to the basis. Outside of VN, the MC have an explicit goal, encounter some obstacles, but never really interact with the other characters otherwise than sexually. No need to convince someone, no need to deal with the outcome, you interact, dot.
While with Western productions you generally need few minutes to remember what happened in the previous update, with Japanese games you can pause for a month and you'll have not much to remember.

And there's probably also a question of mentality among the reasons. Take Illusion by example, while time to time they change the visual style of their games, they still all rely more or less around the same concept. They could go big, they could make a big real time 3D game like The Twist by example. With the global quality and the level of technique their games have, I don't see why they wouldn't be able to do it, and to do it good. Yet they don't...

 

[Paz]

And there's probably also a question of mentality among the reasons. Take Illusion by example, while time to time they change the visual style of their games, they still all rely more or less around the same concept. They could go big, they could make a big real time 3D game like The Twist by example. With the global quality and the level of technique their games have, I don't see why they wouldn't be able to do it, and to do it good. Yet they don't...

Illusion specifically goes from game to game, each one kind of funding the next. That's why they have historically had such an aggressive release cycle. And their talent churn rate is quite high. Many see it as a stepping stone for another field/career, so they frequently refill their ranks with junior developers.
Credit where credit is due though, they do try to become more technologically advanced since they dropped their in-house engine and moved to Unity.
Compared to KISS, which solely relies on a certain series supported by a billion of DLCs, it's quite the different business model.

 

[fidless]

But it's also, relatively speaking, easy. Look at the average VN they make. You've something like 3 bases sprites by character, and less than tens eyes, mouths and eyebrows. There's sometimes a little more variety for clothes, but that's all. Add a dozen of CG for the sex scenes of each girls, some backgrounds, and you're done, just rest to write the story.
It's hard works, of course, but less than most Western indie productions. Even when they are in 2D, Western indie production rely way less on sprites, because generic expressions and poses aren't something natural in our part of the world.
Which don't mean that it's something that anyone can do. While you're working on this, you don't earn money and life in Japan isn't cheap.

I would argue what's easier. Draw unique art or render premade assets.
Here's creativity shine. Can you make a "Dune" world out of daz3d asset story, not really.
Also, I think you underestimate the writing and totally forgot the voice acting.

BUT
I agree. I somewhat feel like JP VN makes fewer original games then they used to. Most games are so cliche I don't even care for jp VN's in general. They make me sleepy with their stories... So much unnecessary time-wasting texts...
Only a few are original. Wish they make more games like "True love", "Princess maker", "The Maid's story". But it's riskier, more work, probably that's why.
I really dig games that blend gameplay with "hentai"/or just being good games.

 

[khumak]

I would argue what's easier. Draw unique art or render premade assets.
Here's creativity shine. Can you make a "Dune" world out of daz3d asset story, not really.
Also, I think you underestimate the writing and totally forgot the voice acting.

Voice acting is one of those features that has dubious value IMO. Some people do like it, but for someone who likes to imagine themself as the main character, voice acting can actually make the game worse rather than better. If the voice coming out of that character's mouth sounds nothing like me then it breaks immersion and I have a harder time immersing myself in that role.

For me the visual look of the character doesn't have that same immersion breaking aspect. Not really sure why. As long as the character is male I can pretend the main character is me even if they're the wrong race, wrong height, whatever. But if the voice sounds like PeeWee Herman when my actual voice is closer to James Earl Jones, sorry not happening. Just can't get into it.

Take the transition from Fallout 3 (no voice acting), to Fallout 4 (fully voice acted) as an example. A LOT of people complained that not only did the voice acting add no value, it actually made the game worse for immersion reasons. A lot of people would rather have had a few more purely text based choices for dialog so they could pick an option that better fit the type of character they wanted. Instead they got the opposite. They got fewer choices than Fallout 3 had and were stuck with an immersion breaking voice that probably didn't match their own. This is on top of the fact that in Fallout 4 there really weren't any choices. There were different dialog options but they all pointed to the same outcome.

I love the Fallout series but I intentionally never bought Fallout 4 (and especially Fallout 76) because I vote with my wallet. I don't want to reward bad design choices. Make another game like Fallout 3 or Fallout NV and I'm in. Make another like Fallout 4 or Fallout 76 and I'm out.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Illusion specifically goes from game to game, each one kind of funding the next.

Which is something that the Western mentality have a lot of problem to understand, because few works like this. When a studio want to make a game, it take a loan to compensate the missing funds, then expect to sell enough to pay it back.

Credit where credit is due though, they do try to become more technologically advanced since they dropped their in-house engine and moved to Unity.

Never said the opposite. I toke them as example not because they are probably the most known, but because they are the most capable to do something else. But, as I said, and you more or less confirmed, there's another factor behind all this. It's not that they don't want, it's that the way they works, that is a mentality and cultural thing, prevent them to effectively be able to do it.

I would argue what's easier. Draw unique art or render premade assets.

Reason behind the "relatively speaking".
But take a game like Lust and Power by example, which is a 2D game. It use sprites, but have way more than most of the Japanese VN. It also rely more on situational CGs/sprites, than them. Therefore, as I said, it's hard works, but relatively speaking it's less than for a Western VN.

Here's creativity shine. Can you make a "Dune" world out of daz3d asset story, not really.

You can. It's not because most of the authors rely on out-of-the-box assets, and don't even think about tweaking a little at least the face, that Daz only permit to produce always the same content and always with an average quality.
It don't offer the same quality than a professional 3D engine, but it's far to be the toy box too many authors limit it to. And when authors are really creative, it lead to quality renders like in The DeLuca Family, or Heavy Five, by example. A little below in term of quality of the renders (yet I haven't had the time to really look at the remaster), there's SpaceCorps XXX, that correctly use the assets and form a coherent ensemble that is too often absent.

Also, I think you underestimate the writing and totally forgot the voice acting.

I forgot the voice acting, yes. But I'm far to underestimate the difficulty of the writing ; I know it well, too well for my taste, having had, in around thirty years, probably enough rejection letters to fill a drawer.
This said, it's not impossible that I underestimate the average level of the writing in a Japanese VN.

 

[SPACE!man]

If we're talking about game games, as in Steam and such, then I'd say they're pretty fucked, yeah. The golden era of gaming was PS1/PS2, back when you saw the weirdest and most wonderful games and people bought them. Now, tastes are pretty limited. People don't really want new, they want pretty or classic or a sequel. Just look at all the "artsy" games out there. Do we REALLY need that many games with deeper meanings?! DOOM worked fine and that was just "point, shoot, repeat"! Then you've got the death of good games. D4 or Blues And Bullets, for example. D4 was weird and actually a good game, but died off cos nobody wanted it. Blues And Bullets feels good to play, it's interesting, and a working knowledge of crime applies here (unlike LA Noire, where your logic don't mean shit, so ya better press X to doubt ya fuckin' mook). The gaming industry is bound by money, and you only get money by being trendy. Simply put, games are whores now: If you're not sucking everyone's dick, you're useless to your pimp.

If we're talking porn games, I've seen way too many buckle under development. I mean, making games does take time and money but developers range from useless and lazy to too crazy. Take Jasonafex, he made one subpar dating sim, one okay beat-em-off (a pun) which was scrapped, a fursona maker that was scrapped, and now he's working on another project that, frankly, is as impressive as a text-game... And yet far less developed than a text game. Meanwhile, you have Full Frontal Frog who produce monthly updates and have a game that's well reviewed in both porn and gameplay. But, as you can guess, they have polls and the polls are... Okay, I guess. But recently they've kicked out some meh NPCs. Too many NPCs spoil the game, so to speak, I mean there's 7 NPCs in one area, but they haven't finished the next map yet, so why aren't they focusing on the main game first?

So long story short, I'd say the games industry in both sides is being kinda watered down. Porn games seem to have become the way to make a quick buck, so we have a ton of unfinished trash games that has a lil'bittle'tittle in it and 500 patreons to match. Then in non-porn games, we have so much generic crap and clones that it's hard to find gems anymore.

Or maybe it's just us. Maybe we've grown up with things that were so good we just can't compare others to it. In which case, we kinda fucked no matter what, eh?

 

[fidless]

You can.

This was a dishonest answer as you know yourself very well it's not true if you would think about it. Making games like this is always a compromise first, creativity later. Not good for moving forward as an industry. I guess blender will be a more popular option in the future for more professional games. Which is already happening.

 

[anne O'nymous]

This was a dishonest answer as you know yourself very well it's not true if you would think about it. Making games like this is always a compromise first, creativity later.

It's a compromise if you want it, or can't afford to do otherwise. Indie creators are mostly limited by their business plan, having to make regular updates, and to pay back their expenses. But nothing prevent someone with a good enough income to decide that it's a long term investment, and to spend two years working on his master game. Then once done and released, to start a secondary one, less ambitious, to effectively earn some money and finally cover the cost of this baby.
I said that you can do it, not that it's a good idea to do it.

I guess blender will be a more popular option in the future for more professional games. Which is already happening.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but alas Blender will never replace Daz3D. Of course, it have, among other things, a better rendering engine, and handle animations way better and more easily. But it's also something too different from Daz3D, something that need a real learning phase before you can effectively use it.
It's a wonderful tool, that I used myself in the past, when I was making some stupid mods for my personal use in Fallout ; and what I learned doing it help me a lot with Daz3D. But it's nothing like Daz3D, that too many authors use in a "click'n'go" way. You don't just click on the environment you want, then on the character and clothes you want, then on the pose and expression you want, before finally clicking on the render button. Too many already struggle with Daz3D, apparently not even understanding that they can do way more than just this "click'n'go". They would be totally lost with Blender.

It doesn't mean that we will not see more games using Blender. And if they have the time for it, those who effectively use Daz3D, who effectively personalize their scenes, spending sometimes days to create the environment they want, could make the jump. But there isn't this much of them, and I'm not sure that they effectively have the time to learn everything again.