Does grind in adult games is a must?

[TTrick]

Hey everyone,

I've been searching for a similar topic but couldn't find one so I decided to ask the question myself.

Does grind in adult games is a must? and when does it stops being fun?
Do you think that in order to have a good adult game you must have the aspect of grinding in order to progress with the story? (aka relationship, stats, money)
If you believe that that's the case, when does it stops being fun and becomes a chore?

If not, how would you extend the length of a game in a similar way that grinding gives you?

while the ideal scenario is to have a game with free roaming, progression and without grinding at all, in most cases that's not possible due to time it takes to develop a non linear story, and maintaining the npc logic - have them being in the right place at the right time (if you use a clock system in your game) so you fill the content with grind.

In my personal opinion, I enjoy both VN and games, I really don't mind grinding but I must admit that there were a few occasions where I closed a game because it was just too much.
The only way I can think of doing a game without that, is making quests type of game where you need to get stuff from people that needs stuff in order to progress ( which to me seems more interesting).

I would like to have your opinion on the topic.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Kthulian]

Hey @TTrick , those are all good questions, and I wish I knew the answer, I guess that will depend on the players. For example I'm developing two games, -Warp- doesn't have grinding at all and it's linear, and Ataegina, it's completely different, Ataegina is younger but appears to be more successful even having less updates, it could be because of other aspects (My skills, renders, theme.... etc)
I believe 100% that will depend on the players, if you are looking for a quick fap just play it linear and no grind, if you want a story, choices, work to have rewards then have grinding in it, moderately xD

Cheers

 

[u z i]

i personally hate grindy games. just proves the lack of content/story in game. so it is definitely not a must. i came across a lot of games here with sandbox style gameplay but with minimum grind:

False hero
Deluca family
Sins of the father
Water world
are a few examples...also regarding what you said about having quests in game :
Adventures of Willy D is a perferct example(you could try it out if you haven't already)

 

[fapman1234]

I feel like there are three different kinds of adult games: grindfests, event hunting and VNs (the kind where you just make decisions and hold control to skip the story). As an example of each, I feel superpowered is a grindfest, The Twist an event hunter and VNs are well, VNs, dreams of desire as one of the better ones.

 

[Akamari]

It's not a must at all.

IMO the best way to progress the story is via choices and consequences. Not only it makes the progress much more logical, you also don't waste time doing repetitive boring grind. And if the choices really matter, it provides engaging gameplay (as much as you can get from a VN, if you don't mind to use the brain) and replayability.

If you don't mind the sci-fi setting, I suggest checking out

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. It's still at Chapter 1, but it's one of the best written games already, focused heavily on choices and consequences without any grind.

 

[Avaron1974]

I prefer RPG's so grind is okay with me. I even enjoy some sandbox games that need a bit of thought and management.

Visual Novels bore me after a while unless the story and characters are absolutely amazing and those are rare.

I'll take grind over click to advance scene any day.

 

[Goblin Baily: DILF]

I prefer RPG's so grind is okay with me. I even enjoy some sandbox games that need a bit of thought and management.

Visual Novels bore me after a while unless the story and characters are absolutely amazing and those are rare.

I'll take grind over click to advance scene any day.

It's not a must at all.

IMO the best way to progress the story is via choices and consequences. Not only it makes the progress much more logical, you also don't waste time doing repetitive boring grind. And if the choices really matter, it provides engaging gameplay (as much as you can get from a VN, if you don't mind to use the brain) and replayability.

If you don't mind the sci-fi setting, I suggest checking out

You must be registered to see the links

. It's still at Chapter 1, but it's one of the best written games already, focused heavily on choices and consequences without any grind.

Opposite statements, yet both true AF

 

[Raymondo]

i asked myself the question because i want to insert a kind of money system into my game to be able to buy things.

but i don't want to give the player 999$ directly at the beginning i thought about 300$ and win money per easy games.

E.g. search 4 garbage parts and throw them in garbage or search 4 bottles bring them to the shop.

I was thinking about doing something simple or working completely without money. because I don't like that someone like a slave has to find something for a few dollars.

I'm thinking myself if I can create either infinite money or simple tasks for money.

i am open for tips in that field =)

 

[Goblin Baily: DILF]

i asked myself the question because i want to insert a kind of money system into my game to be able to buy things.

but i don't want to give the player 999$ directly at the beginning i thought about 300$ and win money per easy games.

E.g. search 4 garbage parts and throw them in garbage or search 4 bottles bring them to the shop.

I was thinking about doing something simple or working completely without money. because I don't like that someone like a slave has to find something for a few dollars.

I'm thinking myself if I can create either infinite money or simple tasks for money.

i am open for tips in that field =)

play F.I.L.F and Milfy City and see what those games did in that deparment... the tasks are balanced and the pay reasonable. Or you could simply implement themoney into the story... every day MC shows to work, at the end of the shift he gets money transfered to his account

 

[Akamari]

Or you could simply implement themoney into the story... every day MC shows to work, at the end of the shift he gets money transfered to his account

@Raymondo This is the best option in my opinion. Playing mini-games to get income is not fun.

 

[recreation]

I'm not a big fan of grinding in adult games. A bit grinding never hurts, but I prefer a good story.

 

[Domiek]

I dont think it's impossible to make a sandbox game without grind. For example, Personal Trainer has no stats/cash/etc.

If people feel that it's short then so be it. I'd rather people see the game for what it is rather than adding random meaningless grind just to extend a meaningless playtime.

 

[polywog]

Main quest for people who are in a hurry. As in life, they miss a lot of the action, but they can still cross the finish line despite their handicap.
Side quest bonus levels for people who stop and smell the roses.
Grind quest mega challenge for people who still believe in the Easter bunny. Basket full of egg rewards.

Everyone wins.

 

[DarthSeduction]

First things first, grind exists because some people have a poor definition of gameplay. Gameplay is subjective. In a VN gameplay is making choices. In a Life Sim, gameplay is what we refer to as grind.

So, many people will argue in favor of the mundane tasks you have to complete which mostly just suck the life out the game, dehumanizing it and turning it all into a transaction, because they want more interactive gameplay.

Interactive gameplay is great. I'm a huge gamer, I have a hard time playing games that are on the rails in any way. But, I like VN more than Life Sims, so why is that?

Well, because mundane tasks are banal. I don't want to do real life things while I'm playing a game. And so, that's the kicker, in my opinion. We need to stop using mundane settings and characters.

You want a modern game with no fantasy elements? Give us a cop, a gangster, a drug dealer, or something like that as our main character. Have the gameplay be about accomplishing goals related to that, as a cop, taking down criminals, as a gangster, dealing with rivals both within and without, as a drug dealer, dodging the police, increasing territory, etc. And give us fights. Even if you're using Ren'Py it's possible to program some turn based combat into it. Keep us engaged by making our character do something.

Then, write the sex around that. I hate the damsel in distress trope, but it would be better than the grind for 30 minutes to get a handjob trope. Take cues from games like Depraved Awakening and The DeLuca Family, both of which have a protagonist which fits the mold I outlined, but that don't have all that much interactive gameplay (though TDF does have a sort of zynga games type of gameplay). What they do have though are characters that fit in those worlds, with motivations and depth of character which is used to draw out interest in their pursuit. The reasons those characters interact with the MC can be applied to any game that does have interaction in the same way.

Gameplay becomes grind when it stops being entertaining. Create entertaining gameplay, and immersive worlds, and people will play your game.

 

[Winterfire]

My games have no grind element so far.

In my opinion grinding should be an option, not a must.
Something I love doing when playing a RPG is to overlevel myself by grinding and then continue on in a breeze, it feels rewarding and good... Of course, as most players do (I think) you could just advance just like you are meant to without grinding.

None of my games so far had any form of combat system so giving that option is not really possible.
The closest I have, which may answer your question regarding alternatives is my current game (more precisely the slave interaction I am developing rn): You gain affection by interacting with her but you do that through talking and performing actions which may contain some plot points as well, upon gaining enough affection you unlock a hentai scene but it is per day basis, meaning that you don't have to do it "10000 times" but just once and you are rewarded right away.
Of course you start with simple hentai scenes (handjob, blowjob) until you reach more rewarding scenes such as sex.

One thing I have noticed in those grinding games is that the actions you have to perform over and over have no story or dialogue, just "actions", I kinda do it vice versa: Lower amount of times to perform an action but add more dialogue to it.

-edit-
I also do not fear running out of content since even if I ran out of ideas making a reasonably short game is not evil.
Many of those grinding games would be even better imho if they did not fear being short games and did not put their content behind walls of repetitive and boring tasks.

 

[Domiek]

First things first, grind exists because some people have a poor definition of gameplay. Gameplay is subjective. In a VN gameplay is making choices. In a Life Sim, gameplay is what we refer to as grind.

So, many people will argue in favor of the mundane tasks you have to complete which mostly just suck the life out the game, dehumanizing it and turning it all into a transaction, because they want more interactive gameplay.

Interactive gameplay is great. I'm a huge gamer, I have a hard time playing games that are on the rails in any way. But, I like VN more than Life Sims, so why is that?

Well, because mundane tasks are banal. I don't want to do real life things while I'm playing a game. And so, that's the kicker, in my opinion. We need to stop using mundane settings and characters.

You want a modern game with no fantasy elements? Give us a cop, a gangster, a drug dealer, or something like that as our main character. Have the gameplay be about accomplishing goals related to that, as a cop, taking down criminals, as a gangster, dealing with rivals both within and without, as a drug dealer, dodging the police, increasing territory, etc. And give us fights. Even if you're using Ren'Py it's possible to program some turn based combat into it. Keep us engaged by making our character do something.

Then, write the sex around that. I hate the damsel in distress trope, but it would be better than the grind for 30 minutes to get a handjob trope. Take cues from games like Depraved Awakening and The DeLuca Family, both of which have a protagonist which fits the mold I outlined, but that don't have all that much interactive gameplay (though TDF does have a sort of zynga games type of gameplay). What they do have though are characters that fit in those worlds, with motivations and depth of character which is used to draw out interest in their pursuit. The reasons those characters interact with the MC can be applied to any game that does have interaction in the same way.

Gameplay becomes grind when it stops being entertaining. Create entertaining gameplay, and immersive worlds, and people will play your game.

Bro, I'm about to blow your mind with the tax return minigame I'm implementing. Don't worry, the SSN you fill out doesn't get routed to a private server I set up in Hillary's basement.

Excellent example with TDF. The gameplay fits the game, there's no meaningless grind.

 

[W65]

It isn't anything like doing REAL paperwork, but "Papers, Please" is the best game I've ever played that took a totally banal day-to-day nuisance and made it fun. It was sorta billed as a game where all the gameplay was inspecting documents, but:

1) New mechanics every few days, so you aren't just holding X to get to the interesting parts
2) Mid-gameplay interruptions that aren't totally predictable, so you're kinda on your toes all the time
3) Plot (and humor) integrated into the gameplay, so you're incentivized to pay attention
4) I forget what number four was.

Postal 2... I think it was Postal 2. It tried to take this tack by letting you either sit through the mundane chores you were sent to do, or to actually seize the gameplay and pee on burning cats like everyone actually wanted to do. It sorta didn't work as well. Still, you really could get through a lot of the game by standing in line... if you wanted to do that.

Anyhow, these aren't examples of countering grind so much as making mundane things work in unexpected ways. Avoiding grind, though, is really the creativity of the dev and their ability and willingness to shake up gameplay conventions. Letting grind creep in is a pretty easy way to not only stretch gameplay time (I just day read a 2014 review that called a 38-hour RPG "short"), but also to limit the need to intelligently balance the gameplay. I doubt these days that many developers literally choose to make players to go out and grind for levels to get around challenges, but it's just sort of an unspoken convention of the genre nowadays: if a player can't get creative enough tactics to get around a boss, it's just a matter of going back to the last area and getting stronger. In RPGMaker stuff, the player often doesn't even really have the option of shuffling equipment or characters or, for the most part, even trying different tactics.

Like I said in another post today, I'm in rambling shitpost mode, so I'm not convinced I've put together much of an argument. Anyhow, grindy gameplay's kind of one of those bugbears of the gaming industry. Pay-to-win shitgame and pay-by-month MMO devs kinda have an incentive to slip grind into their gameplay. Most if not all jRPGs and jRPG-like eastern RPGs are to some extent grindy because combat's most of their gameplay. I'm guessing VN devs who want to include some kind of gameplay are tempted to go with things that are easy to implement and balance so that they can spend their time on the actual VN. At the same time, it probably feels strange to implement a minigame or combat system and then use it just once or twice.

And then the last thing, I guess, is that balance is tough, and grind is subjective.

 

[DarthSeduction]

And then the last thing, I guess, is that balance is tough, and grind is subjective.

I ended up rewriting my post 3 or 4 times and kinda think I was a little unintelligible for it, but did so because of just how subjective it all is.

I do think that there is a collective objectivity that there is a point at which gameplay becomes grind, and thus is no longer fun, and that's why most people who defend the big grindy games will always point to the cheats as a reason they're good, but quantifying where that point is without some major data would be impossible.

What I can say though, is people are generally getting bored with the same old same. What worked for Summertime Saga isn't going to work for your next game, future devs. You need to come up with gameplay that is unique to your title, and make it something you'd want to play.

 

[Winterfire]

It worked for taffy tales tho

I think making a similar game is fine as long as you add something to it, happens pretty much all the time, just look at all the battle royales popping up

 

[Agent HK47]

I would say no. If you want a strong story, then make the game linear. If you want a game with multiple storylines/endings, then make choices which has real impact on the game. I would say Acting lessons is a good example of this.

If you do feel the want/need for making a sandbox game with grinding, then at least try to make the grind a little entertaining. Long Live the Princess has you raise your stats via training, but each time you train you will get a new scene, so it isn't just the same boring sequence running in a loop.

I recently played through Man of the house again, and the grind nearly killed it for me, even with certain cheats activated.