Games that do "dating" gameplay exceptionally well? (Need Inspiration)

[NoTraceOfLuck]

I am working on a new game and would like to add a sort of "dating" gameplay to it. Something that involves actually progressing a relationship with the character before getting to the sex.


I'm wondering what games you think have done a "dating" / "relationship progression" mechanic really well. And I mean actually integrated with some gameplay element, not just good story telling.

Personally I think of Huniepop, which involved asking questions about the girl, and you could only ask the more personal questions (eg: what is your cup size) after you've built up some relationship. Building up the relationship required answering questions about them. I like this concept, but it still leaves a lot to be desired.

Does anyone have any thoughts on what makes a good dating simulator? or examples on games you thought did it really well?

 

[Zoe Archangel]

TLDR - There's no gameplay mechanic that can really capture a relationship growing over time other than actually showing it grow over time.

The problem with emulating relationships is that they build over long periods of time. "Dates" or any kind of personal bonding moments need to be separated by time and other experiences, you can't just go from date to date without it feeling rushed. This is why most of the best video game romances are in long RPGs like Persona, Mass Effect, Baldurs Gate etc. which are filled with grinding, open world mechanics, and convoluted stories and side-plots. Unfortunately, these things all turn out terribly when a horny porn dev tries to cram it into their game as an afterthought. With that being said, the realistic "dating simulators" that are actually good are generally super long visual novels with genuinely good writing that also happen to include romance and a rare explicit scene.

Now, there are plenty of successful ero games that are short and sweet(aka. nukige), but they usually use some trick to bypass creating realistic romance. First is humor, like in Hunie Pop, to make you laugh at how quickly a relationship is progressing. I think most of highest rated nukige are comedies. But other common ideas are using things like mind control, corruption, magic, rape, etc. to avoid traditional romance. A personal favorite of mine that I rarely see is for characters to have a pre-existing relationship before the game so that it doesn't need to develop from scratch.

I know you asked about mechanics and I've mostly just been talking about genres and storytelling, but I don't think mechanics are the answer. Hunie Pop didn't get popular because people liked memorizing girl facts or because of the addictiveness of match-3 games (look at all the failed HP clones), it got popular because it had:
1. Incredibly well polished UX
2. Voice acted comedy
3. Drip-fed "romance" that took time and/or effort to reach the goal, but was fun because of points 1 and 2


Sorry for the rant, I know it's not really what you asked, but I hope it's at least some good food for thought.

 

[MarshmallowCasserole]

A personal favorite of mine that I rarely see is for characters to have a pre-existing relationship before the game so that it doesn't need to develop from scratch.

Generally agree with the whole "rant", but I think there's a good reason why pre-existing ships are rare. With pre-existing relationships the game does not waste the player's time, true. But it doesn't mean it reduces the requirements for author's skill.

In fact, I have a sneaking suspicion that selling a player a budding romance story is easier because the game can tie in some gamification, and basically dupe the player... or make the player dupe themselves via dophamine hits, and make its romance story more appealing than it ought to be just on the merits of writing alone. If that makes sense.

 

[DuniX]

Personally I think of Huniepop, which involved asking questions about the girl, and you could only ask the more personal questions (eg: what is your cup size) after you've built up some relationship. Building up the relationship required answering questions about them. I like this concept, but it still leaves a lot to be desired.

For Sandbox style Dating Sims a good abstraction of romance and emotion hasn't yet been found.

You must be registered to see the links

You must be registered to see the links

You must be registered to see the links

You must be registered to see the links

Pretty much you are entirely dependent on your writing like in a regular VN with a plot and not on the game mechanics.
You can have mechanics but it still needs a buttload of content/writing to make it work.

You must be registered to see the links

 

[NoTraceOfLuck]

Maybe I can phrase the question better:

In Huniepop, despite the fact that there is actually very little writing, they manage to actually make it feel like a relatively strong dating arc through a number of mechanics:

• You go on actual 'dates' with the characters, which consist of playing the match-3 game. Sometimes you fail this game and need to attempt it several times to progress in the relationship. When you fail, it's not game-over, you just need to return again later
• You cannot continuously progress the relationship with one girl on repeat. You must progress others before you can return to the same girl.
• As you progress further into the relationship, it gets harder to progress. (The match 3 game becomes harder)
• They also work in mechanics such as text message conversations alongside normal vn-style conversations, which I feel contributes

Yes you can plop a romance in a 100 hour RPG like Baldur's Gate and it will be great, probably better than Huniepop, but Huniepop manages to generate a relatively strong effect with surprisingly little actual writing.

Another game I think of is Big Brother. In which there is an RNG mechanic such that you might get 1 attempt per week to progress an event, and only a 30% chance to succeed in progressing it.


Writing this out, I see one obvious common pattern: the progression of time.

1. Mechanics that force the user to complete some objective prior to progressing the relationship, preferably a mechanic that the user must repeat multiple times.
2. Mechanics that force the user to complete other, unrelated objectives before they can make attempts at the primary relationship mechanic

Looking for more games that manage to accomplish something like this, strong dating mechanics without being a visual novel.

 

[DuniX]

In Huniepop, despite the fact that there is actually very little writing, they manage to actually make it feel like a relatively strong dating arc through a number of mechanics:

Yes, if you want Dating Sim as an actual Simulation with Repayable Gameplay.
Then we pretty much have no idea how to do that.

Some like you say abstract it into a Puzzle System like Huniepop and that works to an extent, but on the other hand it isn't exactly an accurate representation of "Dating" and "Relationships".
Some make it into a Combat System, but again not that good. Portals of Phreon has a Card Game that represents dating like that.

Mechanics that force the user to complete other, unrelated objectives before they can make attempts at the primary relationship mechanic

If you want characters have some actual agency I do think you need another Gameplay Loop in addition to Dating Mechanics.
If you make that Gameplay Replayable with multiple Character Builds and Customization then you can also make the Dating and Relationships Replayable. Portals of Phreon and Thea The Awakening is a good example of that.

The fundamental problem is there is no such thing as "Characters" or "Personality" without the Plot that acts as a Source of Conflict to test and define themselves.
In other words there is no "Characters" without the "Choices" that can define them.
With Visual Novels you just write the plot in terms of things and events that happen. But if you want actual Mechanics there is no such Cheats.
Instead of Plot you can have some other Gameplay acts like that which is similarly building towards a Conclusion/Victory.

The biggest mistake I see in Artificial Academy style games is they are "Games about Dating" which is why they feel so hollow.
It all boils down to pump the relationship bar with gifts until you win.

 

[Zoe Archangel]

In Huniepop, despite the fact that there is actually very little writing, they manage to actually make it feel like a relatively strong dating arc through a number of mechanics:
...

I want to reiterate that there are a ton of failed Hunie Pop clones (including HuniePop2) that use similar mechanics. The game was carried hard by its character design, comedic writing and voice acting, not it's mechanics.

The fundamental problem is there is no such thing as "Characters" or "Personality" without the Plot that acts as a Source of Conflict to test and define themselves.
In other words there is no "Characters" without the "Choices" that can define them.
With Visual Novels you just write the plot in terms of things and events that happen. But if you want actual Mechanics there is no such Cheats.

I think the better lesson to learn from HP is that it is actually possible to "cheat" personality into a cardboard cutout without a lot of writing. Giving each character a unique voice, literally and figuratively, goes a long way, but they also receive a surprising amount of characterization just from their unique outfits/hairstyles and the gifts that they like. A recently completed game, "Bare Witness," does an excellent job of fleshing out its characters with constant minor appearance changes. They don't have to be explained, the player's brain will fill in the details.

For OP, I see that you're making an Overwatch game, so the character design is already done for you, and it's done really fucking well. People love OW characters because, just like HP characters, they're tropey enough for people to easily flesh them out with their own head canon. My advice would be to lean into these tropes and not rock the boat too much. If what little writing there is is familiar and makes sense, you can get away with having less.

 

[MarshmallowCasserole]

Maybe I can phrase the question better:

In Huniepop, despite the fact that there is actually very little writing, they manage to actually make it feel like a relatively strong dating arc through a number of mechanics:

• You go on actual 'dates' with the characters, which consist of playing the match-3 game. Sometimes you fail this game and need to attempt it several times to progress in the relationship. When you fail, it's not game-over, you just need to return again later
• You cannot continuously progress the relationship with one girl on repeat. You must progress others before you can return to the same girl.
• As you progress further into the relationship, it gets harder to progress. (The match 3 game becomes harder)
• They also work in mechanics such as text message conversations alongside normal vn-style conversations, which I feel contributes

No, your message came through just fine. You're asking what abstraction for romance can be convincing and thus save you some writing labor. And I don't think any real answer has been found (with the exception of one genre I'll talk later).

I think you're wrong about Hunie Pop, though. I've played it, completed it. And if you put a gun to my head, and ask me A SINGLE detail about ANY of the girls I successfully "conquered", I'd be like


Even just a good VN leaves an impression, let alone a great one. Meanwhile, Hunie Pop was just a dull dophamine threadmill. It had evidently forgettable cast, and forgettable gameplay. Even years ago when it was released Match3 had been already done to death.

 

[SatinAndIvory]

I think you can try something like what Crusader Kings 3 does with its event system. In case you've never played Crusader Kings 3 before, it's a medieval simulation game where you play as one character in your medieval dynasty. During the game, you get presented with miscellaneous events from time to time where you need to make choices and, depending on your own character's traits as well as the traits of the person who brought up the event, you are presented with choices that might give you bonus affection, other in-game bonuses, or it might chain to additional events. You can tailor this system for your own game where you could make it dynamic just like how Crusader Kings does it by assigning traits to each of your character and then writing the events to react differently for different characters depending on their traits. This way, you can have randomized characters all use the same event but have different outcomes for different choices. Doing things this way will require you to write lots of events so that things don't get monotonous from the player side of things however.

 

[MarshmallowCasserole]

• You go on actual 'dates' with the characters, which consist of playing the match-3 game. Sometimes you fail this game and need to attempt it several times to progress in the relationship. When you fail, it's not game-over, you just need to return again later

That's the default in sandbox dating sims. You go on dates, and a failed date is just some wasted time, resources and MAYBE a mild hit to affection.

• You cannot continuously progress the relationship with one girl on repeat. You must progress others before you can return to the same girl.

This is, by the way, detrimental. If you happen to make a girl unattractive to a player (and hey, everyone has different tastes) this girl instantly transitions from neutral ("I don't like her but I don't care that she's in the game") to an active negative ("Why the fuck do I need to grind relationships with this ugly pig?")

Personally I hate when the game forces me to grind content I don't enjoy. This is more prominent in what I call meandering VNs, where the linear plot is written so that you MUST romance Annie to hit some plot point that unlocks dating Betty, and dating Betty unlocks something that allows you fetish content with Annie beyond just vanilla, and that ulocks Celine, and on and on and on. If you want to date Kate, or god forbid Zoe, the game is a big "fuck you". It's obviously not a such extreme in a game where you just need to grind your character's stats with other girls, but still it's annoying.

• As you progress further into the relationship, it gets harder to progress. (The match 3 game becomes harder)

That's just gamification, and remarkedly not how actual relationship works, which puts another strain on the writer.


There is one relationship gamification that kinda sorta works, and that is corruption training. The problem is, it's fundamentally different from romantic dating, because one is adversarial relationship, or pretend-adversarial, and the other is not. The whole class of "punishing" moves that make sense in a trainer do not have place in romance. The closest analogy I can think of is strategic use of negging, and even then, it's not actually wholesome romance, is it?

 

[NoTraceOfLuck]

I do agree that I think there is a gameplay sacrifice in order to make the dating mechanics feel better. You force the players to redo content over and over. That is just bad game design, some people will quit, and likely it won't always be fun.

However the players who make it through the "not fun" parts of the game (repeating levels, grinding, etc...) come out on the other side with a stronger belief that they actually earned the relationship to some extent.

I am not trying to distill the concept of a real-life-human-relationship into its essence and inject it into a video game. I am more wondering, what games did it pretty well without being a 50 hour visual novel or Baldur's Gate.

If you think there are no games that did it well, and none have ever been made, and none ever will be made, that's fine, but I'd certainly disagree with that, and I'm sure there are others out there who disagree, I'd like to know which games they're thinking of when they disagree.

A few games I think of:

1. Huniepop
   1. Reasons mentioned before
2. Big Brother
   1. Reasons mentioned before
3. House Party
   1. Long, convoluted quest chains are required in order to progress with certain characters.
4. Max Gentlemen Sexy Business!
   1. This is a unique one that I think many people don't know about. There is almost no writing in this game, but it still produces reasonably compelling relationships via RNG mechanics, unrelated gameplay, and grinding

And then even look at big games like Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect, etc... It's relationships are relatively small, contained stories interspersed by a huge RPG full of gameplay. The perception of time passing, the perception of 'earning' the relationship, etc...

 

[DuniX]

I think you can try something like what Crusader Kings 3 does with its event system. In case you've never played Crusader Kings 3 before, it's a medieval simulation game where you play as one character in your medieval dynasty.

The problem is CK3 is a Strategy Game where the point is to control more territory and grow your dynasty.
If it were a Dating Sim what exactly would be the Gameplay? What are you supposed to do?
You Date and do Events to Date and do more Events, isn't that a Visual Novel at that point?
What exactly have you accomplished by shifting things around?
In other words it's the other way around, CK3 is a Dating Sim and VN in disguise.

This is, by the way, detrimental. If you happen to make a girl unattractive to a player (and hey, everyone has different tastes) this girl instantly transitions from neutral ("I don't like her but I don't care that she's in the game") to an active negative ("Why the fuck do I need to grind relationships with this ugly pig?")

It's not only detrimental, it goes against reason and dating sim conventions.
Most relationships are monogamous not a harem so you are supposed to pursue one girl exclusively.
Why would another girl want competition from a rival?

 

[MarshmallowCasserole]

The problem is CK3 is a Strategy Game where the point is to control more territory and grow your dynasty.
If it were a Dating Sim what exactly would be the Gameplay? What are you supposed to do?
You Date and do Events to Date and do more Events, isn't that a Visual Novel at that point?
What exactly have you accomplished by shifting things around?
In other words it's the other way around, CK3 is a Dating Sim and VN in disguise.

Well, not exactly. Both Dating Sims and 4X on a base level are resource management strategies.

The main difference is that in CK, or almost any other strategy, land you conquer yields resources that make subsequent conquest easier, and that's an abstraction that's easy to understand because it is very much grounded in reality. In a conventional Dating Sim, a girl does not give you in-game resources that can be used to woo more girls. For one, it's not grounded in reality. Dating someone does not make dating other people easier, quite the opposite. More broadly, pursuing two goals simultaneously is a bad idea, pusruing two conflicting goals makes you a protagonist in a comedy of intrigue where the audience laughs at your self-made misfortune.

And second, on a game-design level land in strategies and girls in d-sims fall into different categories. Land is a square on the game board. A girl is most often just an obstacle course with a prize. It's not ideal, but at least prizes are coveted, whereas land invokes no sentimentality. The analogy of CK would be a dating sim that has adversarial AI that tries to conquer the girls if the player neglects them. I think I can almost hear the NTRRrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee screech that would follow such a game. Turns out no one wants rivalry, not just fictional love interests

Or I can envision another game where your dates are board squares. It would be called a Golddigger Sim. Date a low lvl simp, wring some money out of him, upgrade your looks and use it to go after a higher level simp, and follow this progression until you harpoon the mega-whale endgame boss. It would work from a game design perspective, but if OPs goal is to have players to form some attachment to the characters, it would fail miserably. The attitude this mechanic fosters is extreme callousness.

I am not trying to distill the concept of a real-life-human-relationship into its essence and inject it into a video game. I am more wondering, what games did it pretty well without being a 50 hour visual novel or Baldur's Gate.

Any example I can give would be a visual novel, or an RPG that achieves what you want with a compelling narrative. It doesn't need to be a 50 hour experience. But it has to have a good writer, and I have the impression that's not the type of answer you seek.

There are two elements I can probably name that are not narrative (but are very much narrative-adjacent). Lively facial expressions and choreography. I peeked at your devlog, and I'm sorry but it seems these are unavailable to you. AI cg, good luck with that, but I prefer crude but expressive art like in Corrupting a Nun, rather than what AI seems to be able to output. Maybe I'm wrong and you can make 10-20 consistent sprites for one character corresponding to different emotions. If you can, do it. Second, your game seems to be structured like a VN, with no character sprites in a tiled world, so choreography is also flat out.

Better take out your big writer pants from your closet and put them to good use ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯

 

[woody554]

I seem to look at the issue in a much simpler way than others.

the way you make it work is you make the girls reject, hinder and sidestep any advances player tries to make. the more the characters resist player the more they will project a 'personality' on the girl and feel she has her own hidden agenda.

that's it. doesn't matter what the actual mechanic is, but this is what it must achieve to feel rewarding.

this is also how dating worked in big brother. any time you managed to gain some ground, instead of breakthrough the girls suddenly 'needed to think about it'. then even after they agreed, they again pushed the actual sex act further into the unknown future. "ask me again in a few days". and even after the mom finally gives up the pussy, she then says after sex something like lets not do this for a few days so it doesn't become routine, and BAM you're waiting again. very simple, very effective.

and that's also what the point-based "four dates before sex" dating sim systems do. they punish you from misremembering the bra-size or favourite food, and even if you get everything right you're back to waiting for the next date, maybe even forced to grind more money before you can go.

 

[NoTraceOfLuck]

the way you make it work is you make the girls reject, hinder and sidestep any advances player tries to make. the more the characters resist player the more they will project a 'personality' on the girl and feel she has her own hidden agenda.

that's it. doesn't matter what the actual mechanic is, but this is what it must achieve to feel rewarding.

I agree, I think this is the key. I mean, Big Brother had the lowest effort mechanic ever. You have a X% chance to succeed. And if you fail, you try again another day. That's the entire mechanic.

Your game seems to be structured like a VN, with no character sprites in a tiled world, so choreography is also flat out.

Well, that's the thing, I'm trying to figure out what my game is. It has VN elements, but I'm still deciding what it will really be.

Also making consistent characters with AI is pretty straightforward these days, it takes a few tries and some work but you can usually get something pretty good:

View attachment 91496999-71e9-4787-be9b-671498a87b88_raw_video_1_video01fd6e0127ef6465587daced4b2f44dc5.mp4

 

[DuniX]

make the girls reject, hinder and sidestep any advances player tries to make. the more the characters resist player the more they will project a 'personality' on the girl and feel she has her own hidden agenda.

You still have to define how you "Win" in the the Dating Mechanics. If you can't "Win" then why does that character even exist in the game? What is a Dating Sim where you can't date any girls? A Red Herring? Or is it just at the whims of the Dice God?
Resisting and Grinding is just repeating more of the Events by another name.

and that's also what the point-based "four dates before sex" dating sim systems do. they punish you from misremembering the bra-size or favourite food, and even if you get everything right you're back to waiting for the next date, maybe even forced to grind more money before you can go.

The problem is precisely that those games are boring. You can get better results by just writing a VN with better writing and plot and you won't have to do that much pointless grinding and blue balling.
If the Mechanics of a Dating Sim just mean write a better VN instead, what is the point?

I am not trying to distill the concept of a real-life-human-relationship into its essence and inject it into a video game. I am more wondering, what games did it pretty well without being a 50 hour visual novel or Baldur's Gate.

If you want your Dating Sims to have actual Game Mechanics that generate Gameplay then that is what you pretty much have to do. Or cheat with abstracted mini-games like Huniepop.
A Slay the Spire style Card Game in a Sandbox style Open World has some potential.

Technically the original Dating Sims do have some mechanics, they are basically Trainer Sims where you increase various Stats to reach certain Skill Threshold to unlock various Actions and Events for the Girls you are pursuing.
So you had to balance your Time as a Resource to grow your Stats and balance the Affection and Attention for the Relationship. It also had a time limit to the various Endings.
This is an example of those games(analyzed in autistic detail by a professional):

You must be registered to see the links

 

[MarshmallowCasserole]

Well, that's the thing, I'm trying to figure out what my game is. It has VN elements, but I'm still deciding what it will really be.

Ah.

Well, in that case I strongly suggest you start from an ARPG. You can, paradoxically, ax all the combat, but the basics of having a world, a player avatar, and all the typical interaction mechanics is really beneficial. Basically, Stardew Valley with 10 times more events for each character, and a less lame affection system, is the ideal. An interactive handcrafted map (with tilesets either bought or generated by AI) is always going to be superior to a static AI-generated VN backdrop. Always. And you're already on Godot, it's fairly well suited towards this kind of gameplay.

Also making consistent characters with AI is pretty straightforward these days, it takes a few tries and some work but you can usually get something pretty good:

It's still a hot mess in some aspects, but yeah, this is definitely a must have as opposed to one static emotionless sprite. I wouldn't bother with the video, just rip some good stills from it. Easier to edit out the fuck ups that way too, at a guess.

 

[amaranta]

Well, there are no such games. "Good" dating sims and games with relationship elements still a linear progression with management mechanics.
But relationships is not linear. It's more of a set of conditions and reasons for various activities. And you can fulfill it in any order. They have some links between them, but it's more like spaghetti. And they changing from time, from your activities and under ifluence of society.
The closer to that is the Big Brother with possibilities mechanic, but everything good in that game is buried under grind and mandatory questionable kinks.

 

[woody554]

You still have to define how you "Win" in the the Dating Mechanics. If you can't "Win" then why does that character even exist in the game? What is a Dating Sim where you can't date any girls? A Red Herring?

I have no idea what you mean. I've never seen a dating sim where you don't always win. that's not why they exist.