H-Game Development and getting fundings

[SPkiller31]

In advance, sorry for any grammar mistakes if they happen.

I'm writing this both as very early game dev. and just curious person.

I think it is safe to say that most H-games are "funded" via Patreon or SubscribeStar(I don't know much about second page). Funded was put as quote because it comes down to the fact that those pages allow creators to gather money and even turn game dev. to full-time job without selling them, which means not worrying that much about legal issues of referencing stuff from real world.
I would love to hear your honest thoughts about that as both creators and obviously players.

I just want to say I will try to be unbiased on this. "Subscribe" servives allow folks to support their content creators in very free way, pay what you want, get some cool stuff or early patch and cancel anytime which is great on paper. On creator side, they have much, by tons much greater creative freedom as they can reference games, books and overall stuff from real world without having they bodies t-bagged by referenced companies agents.
Would you say that it's almost alway right thing to do, as long as creator is not destroying good name of referenced item or creation or maybe subscribe based income has some kind of dark side to it?

Anyway feel free to write about your experience, some interesting stories regarding that and opinions, will love to read that.

 

[darkduck09]

I would say worry about making a game before worrying about how to fund it.

The vast majority of patreons and subscribe stars here are cash grabs and in many instances, illegal if the developer lives in the U.S. or a lot of other Western countries. They go for a few months, collect some subscribers for some income, and then abandon the project.

 

[SPkiller31]

I would say worry about making a game before worrying about how to fund it.

The vast majority of patreons and subscribe stars here are cash grabs and in many instances, illegal if the developer lives in the U.S. or a lot of other Western countries. They go for a few months, collect some subscribers for some income, and then abandon the project.

Well I think that this is a problem of all "fund-based" creations. I don't know the percentages but I don't think majority of creators is down right bad. Sad thing is that those that crab cash and leave fans without update are just destroying trust and reputation for others, but I guess it's heavily project dependent. Kickstarter had also many bad examples of lying projects but also made a lot of great games possible.

 

[Zabujca]

Interesting topic, I was about to ask similar question.

I would say worry about making a game before worrying about how to fund it.

Normally I would agree, but porn games are very volatile. Most people are used to getting their porn for free, same with (porn)games. I am also thinking if I want to risk my time with porn game instead of a more traditional game which would have a lot higher chance not to flop completely. If I knew that average game can earn its keep I wouldn't hesitate since I do believe I have both an idea and a ability to make one but from what I have been noticing even great games don't make much (on parteon at least). And even if I do end up failing I rather it be because of me rather than not being able to earn my keep.

Now regarding the topic. I was meaning to ask this forums how would you feel about a slightly different approach to funding a game, namely I was thinking about doing crowdfunding for an update.
Let's say I will release a first chapter and when I have a next chapter completed I would create a crowdfund campaign so that community would essentially buy it from me (sorry for such crude wording).
I can see a few cons to this approach, for one one could say that I'm keeping the update hostage, or from a dev perspective an update could fail and all costs would fall onto him, but overall I think that it would still allow more investment into art and overall production since you're not hoping if "the game will start to upkeep itself from this next awesome update".

Share your thoughts, I am really curious about how others see the issue.

 

[SPkiller31]

Interesting topic, I was about to ask similar question.


Normally I would agree, but porn games are very volatile. Most people are used to getting their porn for free, same with (porn)games. I am also thinking if I want to risk my time with porn game instead of a more traditional game which would have a lot higher chance not to flop completely. If I knew that average game can earn its keep I wouldn't hesitate since I do believe I have both an idea and a ability to make one but from what I have been noticing even great games don't make much (on parteon at least). And even if I do end up failing I rather it be because of me rather than not being able to earn my keep.

Now regarding the topic. I was meaning to ask this forums how would you feel about a slightly different approach to funding a game, namely I was thinking about doing crowdfunding for an update.
Let's say I will release a first chapter and when I have a next chapter completed I would create a crowdfund campaign so that community would essentially buy it from me (sorry for such crude wording).
I can see a few cons to this approach, for one one could say that I'm keeping the update hostage, or from a dev perspective an update could fail and all costs would fall onto him, but overall I think that it would still allow more investment into art and overall production since you're not hoping if "the game will start to upkeep itself from this next awesome update".

Share your thoughts, I am really curious about how others see the issue.

Well I don't have much experience but if you mean crowdfunding like kickstarter for example I would personally be sceptical to your game. (Sorry if it sounds rude, it's just my way of wording). I may be subjective on this topic but I find Patreon/Subscribe way of releasing H-games most honest (as stupid as it sounds). If you play demo or prologue of game and think, hey its cool I can either wait for game or pay creater to show my interest and get it maybe early it's up to you. But any way of "forcing" player to pay for game is very risky as there are just many great games you can get for free. In my opinion giving choice "Pay or just wait/have less" is much less controversial than "Fund me a game". Plus no matter how good game would be (and I wish you your project be very good), community would not trust you in therms of: give stranger money, I wil give you better art. Or maybe it will work but will be quite risky. No matter what good luck with your game.

 

[Gwedelino]

The vast majority of patreons and subscribe stars here are cash grabs and in many instances, illegal if the developer lives in the U.S. or a lot of other Western countries.

I'm curious about that part. Could you explain what you mean please ?

 

[Gwedelino]

Just adding my 0,02$ to this topic, I would say that a lot of people here underestimate how costly creating a game could be. And I'm not talking about time only but also money.

Most games are made by single dev that often can't make everything by themselves, some work need to be outsourced (could be art / programming / writing) or they need to add more people to their project.

When a V 0.1 is released, people don't realize how much "unpaid" work was put into it.

AAnd even if the main goal of the developer was not to be profitable, you have to keep in mind that usually people hate to lose money on a work that could be monetized, so that's not very surprising to see nearly every new game release having their very own Patreon or subscribstar link added to their game thread.

 

[anne O'nymous]

The vast majority of patreons and subscribe stars here are cash grabs and in many instances, illegal if the developer lives in the U.S. or a lot of other Western countries. They go for a few months, collect some subscribers for some income, and then abandon the project.

You'll have to backup your claim with some facts on this one, and explain what law prevent someone to give some money in exchange to possibly nothing.
Because it's what Patreon/subscribestar model is. You decide to give some buck to someone because you believe that he deserve them in regard of what he's doing, or what he did in the past, period. At no time it is said, nor even implied, that you'll have something in exchange of this money.
In fact, to be precise, you don't even give your money to the creator.

You must be registered to see the links

are relatively clear on this:

All About being a Patron

As a patron, you’re joining Patreon to be part of an exciting movement to support a creator’s membership while you get special benefits, which may include access to your creator, merchandise (when offered), exclusivity, and engaging experiences with the creator and patron community. In exchange, you pay Patreon for membership programs, on a subscription basis, to access and support creators you like.

It's just two lines, and yet it say so much things.
Firstly, it's a "membership", therefore nothing more that the right to access somewhere.
Secondly, the benefits for this "membership" are explicitly not defined. It's possible that you've this or that, but it's not guarantied and explicitly depend of the creator(s) leading the community you'll join.
Thirdly, you don't even pay the creator(s). You pay Patreon for his service, and then Patreon give it's share to the creator(s) leading the community you decided to join.

And all this is perfectly legal.

 

[SPkiller31]

You'll have to backup your claim with some facts on this one, and explain what law prevent someone to give some money in exchange to possibly nothing.
Because it's what Patreon/subscribestar model is. You decide to give some buck to someone because you believe that he deserve them in regard of what he's doing, or what he did in the past, period. At no time it is said, nor even implied, that you'll have something in exchange of this money.
In fact, to be precise, you don't even give your money to the creator.

You must be registered to see the links

are relatively clear on this:


It's just two lines, and yet it say so much things.
Firstly, it's a "membership", therefore nothing more that the right to access somewhere.
Secondly, the benefits for this "membership" are explicitly not defined. It's possible that you've this or that, but it's not guarantied and explicitly depend of the creator(s) leading the community you'll join.
Thirdly, you don't even pay the creator(s). You pay Patreon for his service, and then Patreon give it's share to the creator(s) leading the community you decided to join.

And all this is perfectly legal.

Hey, thank you a lot for joining this thread and giving clears answer. Would you mind, (if it's in range of your knowledge) if I asked something myself: As you pointed out, patreon-releated payment makes such work completely legal as you just pay for service, often without any kind of product in exchange and what game designer makes, as long as it's free it's up to him.

My question is, if it's by any means possible to estimate, how much of creative freedom, game makers have in terms of all those references to different games and for example using Koikatsu? Few people on reddit and other forums answered that Illusion (Koikatsu creators) are pretty chill when it comes to free/patreon-based games and regarding references (so for example talking about watching movie Lord of the Rings or playing League of Legends/talking about name of some song) they told me that as long as you don't destroy good image of company or product you should not face any problems as long as game itself in non-commercial. If you know anything about that, would you mind explaining a little bit?

 

[anne O'nymous]

Hey, thank you a lot for joining this thread and giving clears answer.

You're welcome.

My question is, if it's by any means possible to estimate, how much of creative freedom, game makers have in terms of all those references to different games and for example using Koikatsu? Few people on reddit and other forums answered that Illusion (Koikatsu creators) are pretty chill when it comes to free/patreon-based games and regarding references (so for example talking about watching movie Lord of the Rings or playing League of Legends/talking about name of some song) they told me that as long as you don't destroy good image of company or product you should not face any problems as long as game itself in non-commercial. If you know anything about that, would you mind explaining a little bit?

Well, I'm not a lawyer, just a 51yo folk that learned a lot about law during his life, but globally the answer is this:

For illusion, well...
Firstly, they authorize you to use the images generated by their studio software, as long as you keep the watermark. Secondly, like too many Japaneses companies, they don't really care about what happen outside of Japan. It's why they let people go with their games. They are aware that they exist (as a whole, not individually), but since they don't really reach the Japanese market, they don't consider this as being a threat.

As for the references, it's something different.
Legally speaking, if you make a game that happen on a sand planet known as Dune, but named Arrakis, with house Atreides, Harkonnen, Corrino, and so on, where you've Mentats, Face Dancers, and so on, it's Intellectual Property Infringement.
While the rights owner(s) goes after you or not, it depend who own the rights. Some will surely goes after you by example, others are known to be more lax (sorry, no names cross my mind right now). For the latter, as long as you don't give a bad image of their "product" (that can be a story or a character), they'll let you in peace.
Be also noted that you'll be a small fish, a really small fish ; this even if you're successful and earn around US$ 10,000/month. It's what one of their lawyer cost them for a day, so starting what will probably be an international lawsuit against you don't worth it. This mean that they'll ask you to stop, and like they know that you don't want to face a lawsuit, and even less to face a millions dollars sentence, they also know you'll comply.

As you can see, there's no real absolute on this topic.
The Law is clear, you've no right to do this unless it's a parody, and it's not you who decide if it's one or not. Plus there's the question of the "product"'s image that can change everything ; and porn give a bad image. But in the same time, it's not because those laws exist, that they'll try to enforce their rights.
There's risks, that can have really harsh consequences, and you've to know about this. But by yourself you're probably safe.

This being said, "being safe" doesn't mean that you should tempt the devil.
It's better to play on similarities. Your planet is not named Dune, but it's still mostly a desert. There isn't spice, but there's a drug that people like to take. There's no Fremens, but the native of this planet know their way through the desert. Anyone who know Dune will see what you mean, but it's just a tribute you made to Frank Herbert, not an IP infringement.

 

[SPkiller31]

You're welcome.




Well, I'm not a lawyer, just a 51yo folk that learned a lot about law during his life, but globally the answer is this:

For illusion, well...
Firstly, they authorize you to use the images generated by their studio software, as long as you keep the watermark. Secondly, like too many Japaneses companies, they don't really care about what happen outside of Japan. It's why they let people go with their games. They are aware that they exist (as a whole, not individually), but since they don't really reach the Japanese market, they don't consider this as being a threat.

As for the references, it's something different.
Legally speaking, if you make a game that happen on a sand planet known as Dune, but named Arrakis, with house Atreides, Harkonnen, Corrino, and so on, where you've Mentats, Face Dancers, and so on, it's Intellectual Property Infringement.
While the rights owner(s) goes after you or not, it depend who own the rights. Some will surely goes after you by example, others are known to be more lax (sorry, no names cross my mind right now). For the latter, as long as you don't give a bad image of their "product" (that can be a story or a character), they'll let you in peace.
Be also noted that you'll be a small fish, a really small fish ; this even if you're successful and earn around US$ 10,000/month. It's what one of their lawyer cost them for a day, so starting what will probably be an international lawsuit against you don't worth it. This mean that they'll ask you to stop, and like they know that you don't want to face a lawsuit, and even less to face a millions dollars sentence, they also know you'll comply.

As you can see, there's no real absolute on this topic.
The Law is clear, you've no right to do this unless it's a parody, and it's not you who decide if it's one or not. Plus there's the question of the "product"'s image that can change everything ; and porn give a bad image. But in the same time, it's not because those laws exist, that they'll try to enforce their rights.
There's risks, that can have really harsh consequences, and you've to know about this. But by yourself you're probably safe.

This being said, "being safe" doesn't mean that you should tempt the devil.
It's better to play on similarities. Your planet is not named Dune, but it's still mostly a desert. There isn't spice, but there's a drug that people like to take. There's no Fremens, but the native of this planet know their way through the desert. Anyone who know Dune will see what you mean, but it's just a tribute you made to Frank Herbert, not an IP infringement.

Thank you a lot for such long answer I really appreciate it. I have to agree that clever tribute to any character, story and so on is much safer than risking a lawsuit or getting 360-no-scoped by Nintendo lawyers. Dune example was great and cleared my mind a little bit. Also thanks for answer regarding Koikatsu. I think this programm/software is a gateway to game-making for many of us, as learning coding, writing and storytelling was much easier for me than learning graphic design, digital painting and such. It's quite simple in use but with right mind and some modding, possibilities of character and scene creation are probably endless.
Once again, thanks a lot for explaining this clearly and sharing with us your point of view, cheers.

 

[Igor.ToNet]

What about Russians, does anyone have any information? I mean, I've seen a lot of posts and threads where the authors said that they would have to leave Patreon, at the same time Payoneer is working, if you have an account in a bank which is not under sanctions, not sure about PayPal. Patreon hasn't blocked anything eather, so what's the problem nothing has changed or am I missing something? Subscribestar doesn't withdraw funds if the bank is from Russia, is that right?

 

[darkduck09]

You'll have to backup your claim with some facts on this one, and explain what law prevent someone to give some money in exchange to possibly nothing.
Because it's what Patreon/subscribestar model is. You decide to give some buck to someone because you believe that he deserve them in regard of what he's doing, or what he did in the past, period. At no time it is said, nor even implied, that you'll have something in exchange of this money.
In fact, to be precise, you don't even give your money to the creator.

You must be registered to see the links

are relatively clear on this:


It's just two lines, and yet it say so much things.
Firstly, it's a "membership", therefore nothing more that the right to access somewhere.
Secondly, the benefits for this "membership" are explicitly not defined. It's possible that you've this or that, but it's not guarantied and explicitly depend of the creator(s) leading the community you'll join.
Thirdly, you don't even pay the creator(s). You pay Patreon for his service, and then Patreon give it's share to the creator(s) leading the community you decided to join.

And all this is perfectly legal.

The vast majority of real porn games that are making money off of content that they do not have the rights to can in fact be taken to court if they live in the US. "Donate to help me keep developing!" is fine and dandy. "Pay $6 to receive ____, ____, and ____" is selling a product. Patreon words things vaguely so that they as a business are protected, but using content that you do not have the rights to is in fact, illegal in most western countries. You as a developer on Patreon are not protected by Patreon's own protections. Not saying anything should be done about it, just saying that it is.

If you don't live in the US or a country that has copyright laws like the US, then you can do whatever you want without consequence, which is fine.

" For patrons, Patreon is a way to join your favorite creator's community and pay them for making the stuff you love. " -

You must be registered to see the links

That line right there says that patrons are in fact, paying for a product. The income, in many areas, that you make off Patreon is taxable income. This means that if you're using real porn in a game, and that real porn is a package that comes from the Patreon the game is on (and not an optional pack like a few developers are smartly starting to do), then you are making money off of content that you do not own the rights to.

 

[anne O'nymous]

"Donate to help me keep developing!" is fine and dandy. "Pay $6 to receive ____, ____, and ____" is selling a product.

Except that it's not how Patreon works.

As I said, quoting their Terms of Use, it's a membership, and nothing more. And like for any membership, it give you access to a give place (here a virtual one) and possibly to some additional rights.
If you get a membership for the gym next door, you pay to access the room, and as additional rights you gain access to their equipment. But at no time the gym is selling you a product, while it can perfectly decide to remove one of the equipment. If it happen that the said equipment was the reason for which you get a membership, your only possibility is to cancel it.
And the exact same apply to Patreon.

You're also forgetting that you aren't paying the author but Patreon. The fact that Patreon will then give their share to the authors you subscribed to change nothing.
To keep the gym analogy, authors are like trainers payed on performance. The more there's people who want to be trained by them, the higher will be their share. But as client you're paying the gym, while they are payed by the gym ; at no time you are paying them.

May a judge consider that authors they are selling something ? Perhaps. But in this case the buyer will be Patreon, not you, since it's Patreon that pay them, not you. What also mean that, if someone can sue them because they don't comply to their obligation (expected that they have obligations), once again it can only be Patreon. But obviously they'll not do it.
And here again come the gym analogy. Whatever if the trainer do something or spend his time doing anything. As long as there's someone who want to be trained by him, the gym is payed and he deserve to have his share of this money. The same apply to authors. As long as there's someone who want to pledge for them, they deserve their share of the money Patreon get.

[...] but using content that you do not have the rights to is in fact, illegal in most western countries.

What concern a real minority of creators. Authors have the right to use the creation made by Illusion studio ; as long as they keep the watermark, but more than Illusion make it clear that there's also an implicit right when the watermark is missing. Authors have all rights over their own drawing, as well as over any 3D render they created.
This left the few authors (less than 0.1%) using real pictures, SIMS screenshots or screenshot from another game.

" For patrons, Patreon is a way to join your favorite creator's community and pay them for making the stuff you love. " -

You must be registered to see the links

That line right there says that patrons are in fact, paying for a product.

This line also come from what is nothing more than a self promoting writing, therefore it have really few legal value.
You can argue that it misled you, but even the worse lawyer will just have to say that you should have read the Terms of Use, since it's them that have an effective legal value.

The income, in many areas, that you make off Patreon is taxable income.

And as I said, this income is included in the taxes payed by the authors. Patreon provide you anything you need to do this ; as long as you're in one of the many countries they cover.

 

[darkduck09]

Except that it's not how Patreon works.

LOOK AT MY GIANT WALL OF TEXT

Alright brochacho you win, I'll cede to your superior knowledge in all things Patreon. I'll continue thinking devs that have Patreons for real world games are sketchy.

My statement about OP worrying about making a game instead of trying to monetize already still stands.