Help with random girl art

[PBMidas]

I want to create an Escort Agency-type game where you recruit random girls and pimp them out until they get burned out and need replacing. I need help figuring out how to create the art for those random girls. There needs to be the same set of standing and smut animations for all of them and enough girls that they don't repeat often. I need help figuring out how to do that.

The most straightforward answer I've found is to use the same solution Lab Rats 2 uses, which I believe is using Daz's ability to script and export individual layers to construct the girls in the game from a body shape and associated set of component parts. The problem with this is that I think Daz is ugly. Reasonable people can disagree but that's my opinion. I'll do this if there's no other option but I'd prefer an alternative.

The first option I would prefer is to use some Illusion game. Unfortunately I don't know if it's possible to export individual layers, meaning I would need to export the same set of images for 40+ cards just to have it feel reasonably random. I also haven't found a way of automating the export. I'm sure that's possible through a Blender bridge or something but I don't know exactly how to do that.

The second option would be to use some sort of engine that could create the girls in the game itself. If someone could recommend a library or tutorial on how to do that then I'd happily take a look. I currently only know Renpy but I'm open to expanding.

Thank you for any responses.

 

[Saki_Sliz]

So many characters, characters with variation in type and look, with features that you could swap in and out (clothes, makeup)?

In general there are about 4 ways to do this: 3D models, Pre rendered images of 3D models, Drawn 2D, and Vector art 2D.

3D modeling is only easy because of programs like daz, where the 3D model isn't only made, but includes many features of adjustability. If you are not a fan of daz models, I assume you mean of the default daz look and not satisfied with the options available for purchase. One work around is to spend not only lots of time crafting your own character, throwing models into blender or zbrush for custom sculpting, or making custom morphs relative to you presculpted character. this took me a few years to lock in something that I truly wanted to commit to my style. The challange after that is the technical aspects of implementing the models into a 3D game.

Pre rendered, as you mentioned would be tedious (unless daz now has the option to turn on and off item render per frame), I use blender for more customization, which allows for the automation(animation) of rendering layers. The issue with this style is that once you start adding layers (clothing option) you are going to chew through memory. cheep on hardrive but not cheep to download.

Drawn images have the same issues as pre rendered, but its much slower to make the art. while 3D has the extra time spent making models, most skip by just using daz or other video games with models to rip, so in comparison, 2D drawing can look much more challenging because of the huge amount of time needed just to make any progress.

Vector art is 2D art, with even more time spent, just so that it can save tons on memory/bandwidth.

I've gone through every step, from toying with 3D model daz and not daz, custom vs bought assets, pre rendering techiques and automation, to exploring a draw art style i can do repeatedly and tolerate (the real challenge), and now that I have over a thousand unique image planned out, not considering clothing layers, vector drawing which I've explored before I'm now reconsidering redoing everything so that my game goes from 50 gigs to less than a gig.

It sounds like you are starting out. Unless you know what your doing (with things like automation), taking the time to figure out and implement automation would take about as much time as making most of the images you need (manually turning on and off layers of clothing, swapping skin type, makeup). But if you start automating, its going to take drastically more time. If you are keen on animation, stick to the 3D, which takes even more time to set up and get running in game, but not as time consuming getting the animations in. the only challenge is getting character and materials that you actually like, which means spending a lot of time exploring and experimenting. So it won't be as easy as browsing through a catalog of premade characters and running some script to generate all the cards/layers you need.

 

[79flavors]

I'd not an artist, 3D or otherwise.

But from a purely technical perspective... avoid 3D completely, imo. Especially Daz3D renders.

With a 2D model (ideally drawn style), you can easily layer things like eyes, ears, face shapes, skin colors, hair styles, hair colors... to name but a few. RenPy specifically has displayable tools like

You must be registered to see the links

(and *cough*, erm...

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) , to do exactly this type of mix and match of multiple images to create a single unique image which can be used and reused.

But with 3D... you're quickly going to run into the

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. Hair layers that doesn't quite fit against certain face shape. Eye layers that look too close together with wide faces and visa-versa. Same with ears, mouths, chins.
... and that is all before you start factoring facial expressions into the mix.
All of which doesn't cover your biggest obstacle... lighting. Yes... you can pre-render characters without eyes, ears, hair, etc and add them in later as layers on top of layers... but the scene lighting will likely cause you issues... even if it's something as simple as the shadow from the hair not being quite right against the forehead or the ears. Then think what happens when you have a night scene or something similar.

Additionally, with 3D, people are going to expect animations (something you can mostly live without in 2D). Now imagine rendering the same 10 second animation for 4 body types, then again for the again for 7 different hair styles multiplied by 3 or 4 different hair colors, then again for 2 different lip shapes multiplied by 5 different lipstick colors, clothes, jewelry, etc. THEN hoping that all those hair renders stay in sync with the head movement, etc. etc.

These are all problems you have with 2D too... but the time to "fix" stuff when it inevitably goes wrong is significantly shorter.

Which brings me to my final 3D concern... time. 3D rendering takes time. Even without animations, you're exponentially complicating your rendering. That complexity will influence the time it takes to render each combination of each layer.

None of these problems are unsurmountable. But they will be time intensive.

My last point is more subjective... Daz3D rendered games tend to be fully rendered scenes these days - where each character and the background are rendered all together as a single render (not least for lighting needs). The "mix and match" style of layers better lends itself to sprite based games, where a given character portrait (the character sprite) is overlaid upon an ever changing series of backgrounds, sometimes appearing on the left, right or middle of the screen. A character "Helen" showing an angry face will use the same sprite for that combination of character and facial expression throughout the game. In my opinion, those sort of "sprite" based games are usually pseudo-hand-drawn art - even if the background image is 3D rendered. My point is that player expectation is that near photo-realistic art tends to be whole/single scene renders, whereas hand-art tends to be sprite based... perhaps that's only me though.

An example of 3D rendered "sprites" overlaid onto background renders would be the early chapters of Cuntswell Academy. The game is a mix of both styles, but as the game went on - the sprite use became less and less. It didn't really work... and that was single rendered characters, without the mix-and-match complexity.

 

[anne O'nymous]

RenPy specifically has displayable tools like

You must be registered to see the links

, to do exactly this type of mix and match of multiple images to create a single unique image which can be used and reused.

I'm sure you heard about

You must be registered to see the links

, what are far more usable than the good old Composite.

But with 3D... you're quickly going to run into the

You must be registered to see the links

. Hair layers that doesn't quite fit against certain face shape. Eye layers that look too close together with wide faces and visa-versa. Same with ears, mouths, chins.
... and that is all before you start factoring facial expressions into the mix.

It's possible, it just have to be done differently.
With a 2D approach, you follow the "one fit all" scheme, what, with 3D, would lead to the problems you pointed.
Therefore, with a 3D approach you've to follow a "one for one" scheme. The hairs are rendered once for each scene for each conflicting configuration. If you keep things (relatively) basic, it can works ; the hairs are either short or always in the back, so they just have to fit the face, whatever are the clothes.

But obviously this will lead to a big increase in the time needed to make a scene. And, like you said, there will still be the problem of the light ; even if the girl have the same position in two scenes, you can't reuse the pieces you already rendered if the lighting isn't the same. What in the end make it not really worth the time you'll pass doing it.
With 3D it's better to follow a global approach. Something like "four kind of clothes" ; strict, casual, sexy and slutty. And then render each scenes four times. Or the same for the body type ; slim, natural, athletic, chubby. But not both since, with just those four clothing and body types, each scene already have to be rendered 16 times.

An example of 3D rendered "sprites" overlaid onto background renders would be the early chapters of Cuntswell Academy. The game is a mix of both styles, but as the game went on - the sprite use became less and less. It didn't really work... and that was single rendered characters, without the mix-and-match complexity.

I guess 3D sprites can works, if done right.
The main problem is that devs who use them render the background, then proceed the characters independently. What lead to the main problem, the background and the character don't have the same scale. It works fine with 2D because our brain don't expect realism. We see this as a puppets theater show, with the puppets in front of some background setting. And it works really badly with 3D, because our brain wonder why there's giants in this normal room.
If they posed the characters in the scene used for the background, then removed the scene without touching the camera, it would probably already give better results visually, while still saving rendering time. But there's no real interest to do this, unless your computer is a real potato. A full scene will always be better looking than sprites, even if the sprites are done correctly and the full scene below average.

 

[Deleted member 1121028]

Saki_Sliz Long time no see
Are you back from the dead^^?

But with 3D... you're quickly going to run into the

You must be registered to see the links

. Hair layers that doesn't quite fit against certain face shape. Eye layers that look too close together with wide faces and visa-versa. Same with ears, mouths, chins.
... and that is all before you start factoring facial expressions into the mix.

Actually no... With 3D you ain't quickly going to run into the uncanny valley yet, it takes time and dedication to even get there. Won't blame you tho, that concept is so widespread and misused, there is no much to do .

 

[Saki_Sliz]

Hey, no_name, yeah, it's certainly been a while. Finished college, job searched for a year, started my career as an electrical engineer, designing control panels now, and got back into making erotic projects. been poking around F95 for the past few weeks.

 

[Deleted member 1121028]

Hey, no_name, yeah, it's certainly been a while. Finished college, job searched for a year, started my career as an electrical engineer, designing control panels now, and got back into making erotic projects. been poking around F95 for the past few weeks.

Ay! Hope you're doing just fine tho, for real o/

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[PBMidas]

Thanks for the responses.

I have functionally no artistic talent of my own. I've done writing and coding for Haramase Simulator but you probably know that game uses almost entirely "borrowed" assets. My only real option to do something original is to use someone else's art, which means either using existing assets in marketplaces like Daz or commissioning something.

I've decided I can live with Sakura and her derivatives, so my current plan is importing Daz assets into Unity using the bridge. I just started but it seems to be working reasonably well so far. I still need to play with the imported morphs, specifically how to script them and how to morph clothing to match the body changes (Daz does that automatically as best it can, Unity doesn't appear to). If I can get that working then it might actually be less work to make a fully 3d game in the style of EG Dungeon Keeper or Sims rather than a visual novel. I will probably be eating those words in a week or two.

 

[Saki_Sliz]

For morphing clothes, I don't know how others get that into unity
as you point out, daz has its own system for reshaping clothing (not sure what technique or technology they use for this).
What I end up doing is exporting everything through blender as OBJ. obj data types preserve vertex order (if you make sure to configure blender's obj importer settings), this allows exporting both character or clothes in the different body shapes you want. which blender can then join the different shape (of the same object ie pants) and make shapekeys for the clothing, which can then be loaded into unity. What I haven't explored yet is more extreme body shapes that change body proportions, changes in proportions mean changes is the skeleton, which I have no idea how that might be handled in unity.

 

[PBMidas]

It looks like it's possible to do model and clothing morphs (in this case the youth morph) inside Unity, see

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. According to this tutorial the morphs need to be applied to everything separately, but from my limited understanding of Unity it should be possible to bind each of the morph values to the same variable to change them programmatically at the same time. Use a few different morphs and hair/face models, randomize their values within a limited range when generating a character, simple enough. Add a tutorial on importing animations from Daz (

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) and another on turning those animations into working walk cycles (

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) and a NavMesh tutorial (

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) and suddenly the whole thing seems reasonable. Then again, I'm sure this is all much more difficult than it appears. There are good tutorials but moving beyond them will take some experimentation.

What would you say is the advantage of using Blender as an intermediate step rather than straight Daz->Unity? I've never touched Blender before.