Washedupklay
Newbie
- Feb 16, 2020
- 58
- 88
- 73
I used to love this game, but I'm sorry to say that the story feels so convoluted and long winded that at some point I just started skipping through all the cut-scenes.
- Thread starter N_taii
- Start date
Hello N_taii,
I want to start with a few words of admiration for your work on this game. HC2 was both my introduction to NTR and, after months of searching similar titles, the best work in the genre I've found so far. While I wasn't into the second part of the game, your improvement between HC1 and HC2 is so drastic that I can't help but look forward to what you'll be able to do in HC3. I'll look into supporting your work once the december festivities are over.
As I haven't been reading your messages much I'm not sure how you feel about your early work on HC2, but seeing how Edwyn and Noah grew that way, their friendship and complementary characters with more nuance than I expected made for a complex setting with two relatable characters. I also particularly appreciated the introduction of Vaeri creating a believable shift in relationships and great scenes. On a technical point, the way it unfolds with loved ones gradually becoming uninteractable and unengaged during the free roam parts blew me away. I also liked the meta use of inane RPG-like fetch quests while couples were building relationships elsewhere - though it felt a bit overused.
I have had issues with a lot of what happens a bit before and after the Forest Elf arc, of course I have no intentions to dictate how you write but I know critical feedback can be valuable to some creators so if you are one of those I'll try to elaborate. Feel free to ignore the rest of my message otherwise, and thanks again for such a great game.
---
To give context on where I'm coming from, imho the story/kink hinges on a predestined end : the terrible antagonist "gets" and corrupts the love interest of the meritorious but ultimately lacking protagonist. That end is known to the audience upon starting the game, with some that are into what happens once all hope is lost - for which I assume the 2nd part of the game was written - , and some (of which I am) that are into the dramatic tension and the chain of events that lead to the loss of all hope. Of course there are people in both and different categories whatsoever but this is to explain why I won't comment on the later parts of the game.
As someone looking for dramatic tension, I was impressed by NTR2 because it worked not with one hope ("Will Noah have a functional relationship with Celis"), but a number of them :
- Could Edwyn escape from his father's influence and become a decent person ? As long as he doesn't "become" an asshole, then the player can root for him (especially as he starts as an underdog) just as he could for Noah.
- Will Celis try to escalate her relationship with Noah ? She's initially written as a clever character with agency, once she has "learned" some things with Edwyn, she could decide to try them with Noah.
- Could Noah develop feelings for Vaeri ? The upside of a mostly silent protagonist is that their feelings are not obvious, and the muddled sister/friend/lover relationship with Celis could be outshined by the simpler love from Vaeri.
- Will Celis acknowledge her sexual desires (before it's too late) ? The lessons are (or quickly become) an obvious foil for Celis to explore her desires, initiating an implicit relationship with Edwyn. Not acknowledging it to herself gives Edwyn all the power, whereas doing so would give her leverage back - both to build it into something healthier or stop it, and try to reach a resolve regarding Noah.
- Will justice be brought to Zeno ? First for his assassination, then for the coup.
- (to a lesser degree) Is Zeno right about the high elves ? Up to a point, Zeno has kind of a "right for the wrong reasons" vibe, as high elves are not shown to be particularly trustworthy. Being both a terrible person and an (accidentally) capable leader gives depth to an otherwise cartoonish character.
Of course the answer always is (and expected to be) "No" (except for the parts related to the endings choices), but the tension arises and is maintained as long as the answer to some of them is "Maybe", which is what I like. Once Noah is emprisoned/enslaved under Zeno's whims, there's very little to work with - but I understand that the focus by this point has shifted and the game is written for another part of the kink/audience, however in the early sections of the game is where I feel my critics have more weight as I feel closer to the expected player/reader - though it's entirely possible I misread your intent and it's not what you were going for.
Specifically, the "Maybe" answer can only work if there's balancing between the progress of the two parties (protagonist/antagonist), and some setbacks on the antagonist's path. When (like HC1), blackmail event 1 becomes the basis for blackmail event 2 which becomes the basis for blackmail event 3, it ends up a boring story about stupid people. And if everything the antagonist tries result in linear and expected progress towards his goal, it ends up boring despair porn. What if Noah doesn't accept the "strong" wine ? He's not exactly non-confrontational, and we have no reason to believe he wouldn't know when to stop drinking. If anything, Edwyn is the one with strange chemicals in this blood that could react negatively with alcohol and a desire to overcompensate. On top of a setback being interesting in itself, the precedence of setbacks not only allows the tension to be maintained, but also for great scenes where the antagonist incurs an initial setback with his plan but improvises and manages to salvage the situation in extremis - this fits thematically with the clueless protagonist/knowing audiences plays.
And as balance could apply to story circumstances, the same could apply to relationships. If Celis spends every monday morning blowing Edwyn for hours while never taking any initiative with Noah, the whole "true love" artifice grows old. If the disparity is too wide it just becomes a consensual love story between two people with an annoying onlooker - especially in a game where the sister/tentative girlfriend ambiguity is played upon. While I understand how the game borrows from RPG tropes to mock them (or show their incoherences and flaws), and the "too shy to admit love" cliche is frequent in those, keeping it in an adult game (essentially) about dysfunctional relationships feels too much like a limiter or a severe test to the suspense of disbelief. It also can reinforce the sense of what is lost if Celis and Noah cease previous cyclical activities : even in the early part of the story the free roam parts have Celis and Noah on their own, with no option to spend time together as part of a routine schedule.
Finally, I was surprised how introspection was handled. The game made ample use of the fact Noah is a "silent" protagonist, which allows to skip over his train of thought as he is made to wait or ignored, and leaves up to interpretation how he doesn't see through windows or just-interrupted sexual activities most of the time . It's a central part of the game and I appreciate the inventive uses of the device, so of course as a result introspection on his part can only be limited. However other characters, and in particular female characters are written as real beings and not a mix of narrator tool/character, so them never taking time to assess their situation, particularly their evolving relationships, or reaching decisions on their own doesn't make sense.
This is even more important because the free roam parts of this game are cyclical, meaning we are to believe an undeterminate amount of time (weeks) can elapse between two events. Yet it's not clear how the status quo that these cycles imply is justified : Celis accepts to suck Edwyn's cock one evening in a drunken stupor and under blackmail-ish circumstances, and next thing we know she does that every monday afternoon with gusto. Now to be clear I love the disjointed storytelling it creates, it's probably one of the strongest points of NTR games imo. I also like the use of pixel art sprites/sound effects to allow for scenes repeats without repeating one-time-scenes, something a lot of porn games struggle with. However if we're never - even way later - given context on how (specifically what changes of mind) brought the sex event from something unique to a regular occurrence, it cheapens the story and the character growth of those involved. Of course I'm aware NTR games also frequently play around missing information and context but as HC2 has the option to either show scenes or not, it seems to me that if you choose to see the scenes you should get context on how one situation became another - again, possibly with time lag to keep the disjointed storytelling, like the diary in Summer Scents.
It also cheapens the reoccurring events where a love interest is having sex with an antagonist and is prompted to "be honest with their feelings", which doesn't hold up if in fact these characters are never shown before having the conflictual feelings this dick is supposedly squashing, nor shown after said dick squashing acknowledging the conflict resolution and its consequences.
---
Rereading myself it seems I had 2 words of praise for 3 sentences of criticism, and there's an unjustified arrogance that wasn't intended, so I'll repeat bluntly : I deeply appreciate the work and thoughts put into this game, as well as the work ethic shown by your frequent updates. I wish for your continued success and will wait for HC3 with bated breath.
I want to start with a few words of admiration for your work on this game. HC2 was both my introduction to NTR and, after months of searching similar titles, the best work in the genre I've found so far. While I wasn't into the second part of the game, your improvement between HC1 and HC2 is so drastic that I can't help but look forward to what you'll be able to do in HC3. I'll look into supporting your work once the december festivities are over.
As I haven't been reading your messages much I'm not sure how you feel about your early work on HC2, but seeing how Edwyn and Noah grew that way, their friendship and complementary characters with more nuance than I expected made for a complex setting with two relatable characters. I also particularly appreciated the introduction of Vaeri creating a believable shift in relationships and great scenes. On a technical point, the way it unfolds with loved ones gradually becoming uninteractable and unengaged during the free roam parts blew me away. I also liked the meta use of inane RPG-like fetch quests while couples were building relationships elsewhere - though it felt a bit overused.
I have had issues with a lot of what happens a bit before and after the Forest Elf arc, of course I have no intentions to dictate how you write but I know critical feedback can be valuable to some creators so if you are one of those I'll try to elaborate. Feel free to ignore the rest of my message otherwise, and thanks again for such a great game.
---
To give context on where I'm coming from, imho the story/kink hinges on a predestined end : the terrible antagonist "gets" and corrupts the love interest of the meritorious but ultimately lacking protagonist. That end is known to the audience upon starting the game, with some that are into what happens once all hope is lost - for which I assume the 2nd part of the game was written - , and some (of which I am) that are into the dramatic tension and the chain of events that lead to the loss of all hope. Of course there are people in both and different categories whatsoever but this is to explain why I won't comment on the later parts of the game.
As someone looking for dramatic tension, I was impressed by NTR2 because it worked not with one hope ("Will Noah have a functional relationship with Celis"), but a number of them :
- Could Edwyn escape from his father's influence and become a decent person ? As long as he doesn't "become" an asshole, then the player can root for him (especially as he starts as an underdog) just as he could for Noah.
- Will Celis try to escalate her relationship with Noah ? She's initially written as a clever character with agency, once she has "learned" some things with Edwyn, she could decide to try them with Noah.
- Could Noah develop feelings for Vaeri ? The upside of a mostly silent protagonist is that their feelings are not obvious, and the muddled sister/friend/lover relationship with Celis could be outshined by the simpler love from Vaeri.
- Will Celis acknowledge her sexual desires (before it's too late) ? The lessons are (or quickly become) an obvious foil for Celis to explore her desires, initiating an implicit relationship with Edwyn. Not acknowledging it to herself gives Edwyn all the power, whereas doing so would give her leverage back - both to build it into something healthier or stop it, and try to reach a resolve regarding Noah.
- Will justice be brought to Zeno ? First for his assassination, then for the coup.
- (to a lesser degree) Is Zeno right about the high elves ? Up to a point, Zeno has kind of a "right for the wrong reasons" vibe, as high elves are not shown to be particularly trustworthy. Being both a terrible person and an (accidentally) capable leader gives depth to an otherwise cartoonish character.
Of course the answer always is (and expected to be) "No" (except for the parts related to the endings choices), but the tension arises and is maintained as long as the answer to some of them is "Maybe", which is what I like. Once Noah is emprisoned/enslaved under Zeno's whims, there's very little to work with - but I understand that the focus by this point has shifted and the game is written for another part of the kink/audience, however in the early sections of the game is where I feel my critics have more weight as I feel closer to the expected player/reader - though it's entirely possible I misread your intent and it's not what you were going for.
Specifically, the "Maybe" answer can only work if there's balancing between the progress of the two parties (protagonist/antagonist), and some setbacks on the antagonist's path. When (like HC1), blackmail event 1 becomes the basis for blackmail event 2 which becomes the basis for blackmail event 3, it ends up a boring story about stupid people. And if everything the antagonist tries result in linear and expected progress towards his goal, it ends up boring despair porn. What if Noah doesn't accept the "strong" wine ? He's not exactly non-confrontational, and we have no reason to believe he wouldn't know when to stop drinking. If anything, Edwyn is the one with strange chemicals in this blood that could react negatively with alcohol and a desire to overcompensate. On top of a setback being interesting in itself, the precedence of setbacks not only allows the tension to be maintained, but also for great scenes where the antagonist incurs an initial setback with his plan but improvises and manages to salvage the situation in extremis - this fits thematically with the clueless protagonist/knowing audiences plays.
And as balance could apply to story circumstances, the same could apply to relationships. If Celis spends every monday morning blowing Edwyn for hours while never taking any initiative with Noah, the whole "true love" artifice grows old. If the disparity is too wide it just becomes a consensual love story between two people with an annoying onlooker - especially in a game where the sister/tentative girlfriend ambiguity is played upon. While I understand how the game borrows from RPG tropes to mock them (or show their incoherences and flaws), and the "too shy to admit love" cliche is frequent in those, keeping it in an adult game (essentially) about dysfunctional relationships feels too much like a limiter or a severe test to the suspense of disbelief. It also can reinforce the sense of what is lost if Celis and Noah cease previous cyclical activities : even in the early part of the story the free roam parts have Celis and Noah on their own, with no option to spend time together as part of a routine schedule.
Finally, I was surprised how introspection was handled. The game made ample use of the fact Noah is a "silent" protagonist, which allows to skip over his train of thought as he is made to wait or ignored, and leaves up to interpretation how he doesn't see through windows or just-interrupted sexual activities most of the time . It's a central part of the game and I appreciate the inventive uses of the device, so of course as a result introspection on his part can only be limited. However other characters, and in particular female characters are written as real beings and not a mix of narrator tool/character, so them never taking time to assess their situation, particularly their evolving relationships, or reaching decisions on their own doesn't make sense.
This is even more important because the free roam parts of this game are cyclical, meaning we are to believe an undeterminate amount of time (weeks) can elapse between two events. Yet it's not clear how the status quo that these cycles imply is justified : Celis accepts to suck Edwyn's cock one evening in a drunken stupor and under blackmail-ish circumstances, and next thing we know she does that every monday afternoon with gusto. Now to be clear I love the disjointed storytelling it creates, it's probably one of the strongest points of NTR games imo. I also like the use of pixel art sprites/sound effects to allow for scenes repeats without repeating one-time-scenes, something a lot of porn games struggle with. However if we're never - even way later - given context on how (specifically what changes of mind) brought the sex event from something unique to a regular occurrence, it cheapens the story and the character growth of those involved. Of course I'm aware NTR games also frequently play around missing information and context but as HC2 has the option to either show scenes or not, it seems to me that if you choose to see the scenes you should get context on how one situation became another - again, possibly with time lag to keep the disjointed storytelling, like the diary in Summer Scents.
It also cheapens the reoccurring events where a love interest is having sex with an antagonist and is prompted to "be honest with their feelings", which doesn't hold up if in fact these characters are never shown before having the conflictual feelings this dick is supposedly squashing, nor shown after said dick squashing acknowledging the conflict resolution and its consequences.
---
Rereading myself it seems I had 2 words of praise for 3 sentences of criticism, and there's an unjustified arrogance that wasn't intended, so I'll repeat bluntly : I deeply appreciate the work and thoughts put into this game, as well as the work ethic shown by your frequent updates. I wish for your continued success and will wait for HC3 with bated breath.
Evil987
Member
- May 27, 2018
- 204
- 212
- 248
almost.
there only the last ending left, + the final round of adding some stuff here and here along with a general final polishing.
come back in 2 month and u will find the game finished.
Probably not. If we look at it from a purely business point of view, I don't think this would be a good idea. People are subscribed to me mainly because they enjoy NTR. Now, if I were to say that, from now on, I'm going to take several months to implement a non-NTR route for a game that already has all its endings, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't sit well with a lot of people. Besides, I've been delaying HC3 for long enough^^
I am not exactly sure why you seem to think adding one more ending would impact the workload of all the other ones. Besides, I haven't really been "redoing" them, but I simply added more stuff that me or players thought were lacking, which I would have done regardless of the amount of endings. Had I removed one ending, the development time would have been the exact same minus one ending, so more or less one month.
I'm simply trying to be more attentive to players expectations, and leave a game that would feel as complete as possible. Don't worry, I'm not going to drop anything or give up on the game because development has gotten slightly more complicated : )
I tried to make forgiving Celis as smooth as possible in this ending, but I knew it wouldn't be able to please everyone^^ I'd have to make a whole new storyline for it to feel believable to most.
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Thanks for the report!
Dang it, I forgot to send the cleaning maid! Thanks for letting me know : )N_taii , i guess you forgot to clean up...
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Edit: Lundath (Morning)
Edit2: There is a moaning sound at Neve's bedroom at Fridath (morning) but there is noone in the room.
Well, HC2 had five pairs, so it's still less^^ I'll see how I do it for the choices. Maybe a different font color to differentiate important choices from unimportant ones with a warning during the tutorial?
No promises though, I'm just writing some of my ideas so it's easier to remember^^
Yeah. RPG Maker MV's generator has like one haircut that kind of fits bad guys and make them look "sharper". A lot of the other look too soft or ridiculous^^
Thanks : )
First of all, reading comments such as these make me wonder what the game could have been if I had half your eloquence.
Thank you for your in-depth review and criticism. If I were to answer to every point, we might never see the end of it, but I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts on the game.
Just one thing though: it felt a part of your criticism hinged on the fact that the freeroam events were repeatable, thus creating the impression that they litterally happened every week in the game's world. Did I understand that correctly? That wasn't exactly my intention. In my mind, they were supposed to happen just once. However, I understand that players like to be able to go back to them at a later date, which is why I kept them as repeatable events until story progression made them disappear eventually.
Reading that criticism of yours, it would be a shame to see it get lost as "yet another comment on page xx". If that's not too much to ask, would you be okay with posting it as a review here for this game? I'm sure it would prove very helpful for a lot of people.
Of course, only if it's not bothering you, as you've written quite a lot already.
Thank you again! : )
In the game files : )
I'm sorry, but what do you mean by that exactly? Just to make sure we're on the same page, when you say Gavyn, you mean the high-elf soldier, right?
xCTx
Newbie
- May 23, 2018
- 79
- 136
- 237
Since the game is complete (minus the clean up) I figured I'd give my two cents.
I still prefer HC1 but I would be lying if I said it's not obvious you've improved a lot since then, ironically you'd make for a good developer of an actual RPG game (non Hentai) with you're ability to tell a story in detail.
I will state that I feel the story is way to long and complex for a H-Game but that's just my taste.
I don't care what anyone else says, you've done a good job and I hope you keep up the good work as we continue on with the Henteria Chronicles.
I still prefer HC1 but I would be lying if I said it's not obvious you've improved a lot since then, ironically you'd make for a good developer of an actual RPG game (non Hentai) with you're ability to tell a story in detail.
I will state that I feel the story is way to long and complex for a H-Game but that's just my taste.
I don't care what anyone else says, you've done a good job and I hope you keep up the good work as we continue on with the Henteria Chronicles.
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Indeed I completely misunderstood that part. As a player, I really enjoyed the hide-and-seek/peeping tom part of the game, and after every meaningful event I'd spend the whole week seeing where Celis and Edwyn went (and to a lesser degree other characters) and which activities changed before tacking optional quests (and doing the same again) so my impression of these periods of time is that they showed the "every week" and were to be understood as undeterminate periods of time between events, representative of how long it would actually take me do to all of that. This was also hinted at by the name of one of your first quests ("A Typical Week"), and I never questioned it.
I'm not sure what to think of your answer, in my mind this idea of exceptional circumstances becoming the norm were a particularly good fit with the corruption theme and a clever use of the game medium. On the other hand it certainly answers some of my questions !
That's the least I could do. It doesn't entirely work as a review since I only comment on less than half your work but I just added it.
- Jun 25, 2018
- 818
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- 317
Ah, ok - sorry I still haven't played 2, I only played a little bit of 1 once but I didn't get far when I found out about the special scenes because I wanted to play the full content. That's why I'm waiting for the last patch for 2 so I can experience everything you've prepared so far
unfortunately in my country 20$ a month is not so little because it's like over 80$ in the west and slightly richer countries xD anyway, if I like it (and there's a good chance I will) I'll just stay a rank lower and support you as a Sergeant Great idea! It was a bit similar in The Witcher where key dialogues were in gold and less important in white. Just mention it in the tutorial and you're done -.^
I'm only afraid of one thing. We know that in order for NTR to work the player has to "get used to and care" for the female character. That's why I usually prefer one or two, but when I hear about five or four I'm a bit afraid that half of them won't interest me or that my favorite one will have too little content.
But what am I going to say here, I have to play full versions 1 and 2 first, because maybe you already got it right soo xD
Animefan_09
Well-Known Member
- Sep 13, 2017
- 1,774
- 1,200
- 308
Can someone share a save for when they leave the village? Or just before? I mean when they go visit the other elves, i erased my old game and forgot to copy paste the save to the new version xD
RedGlow
Well-Known Member
- Aug 5, 2016
- 1,657
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- 538
Animefan_09
Well-Known Member
- Sep 13, 2017
- 1,774
- 1,200
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Mmm i will check them later to see if there is any close, i hope they are labeled and i don't have to try each 1 xD
RedGlow
Well-Known Member
- Aug 5, 2016
- 1,657
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Did you even check the save folder mate? Because all of your questions are already answered if you just bother to look into.