How do you tell your favorite dev they need to improve?

[GordonShock]

Right off the bat, let me say that I HATE writing/texting with a passion. Whether someone is a good writer or not, voice communication is, by far, vastly superior to text as it conveys tone, emotion, and intent. I'm not an old geezer yet, but I remember a time when we just picked up the damn phone. Now with text, folks can project all they want, imply tone, read between the line when they should take it all at face value, etc.

Yet, things are the way they are, and for quite a while now, I've been feeling frustrated with one of my favorite games from a developer I’ve supported almost since the beginning. The game is extremely popular and has earned near-perfect scores, which I don’t believe are inflated. But I also believe there are three key areas where the game falls short and is only mediocre at best. If the developer made even a small effort to address these issues, I believe the game could reach a level of greatness on par with directors like Scorsese or Kubrick. The potential is there, but these areas are holding it back, and interestingly, these areas happen to be my field of expertise. With each new release, I find myself thinking about whether I should speak up—should I reach out to the developer and offer my feedback? After all, my intentions are purely constructive.

I’m not looking for personal gratification, and I have no ulterior motives here. I just feel that the flaws in these areas are so obvious, and they’re not that hard to fix. It’s a widespread issue in the industry—many games, especially from small teams, end up with flaws simply because one person cannot possibly master every aspect of the game. It’s rare to find someone who excels in all areas, but that's where a team comes in. Just like in film, television, and other video games, the best results come from having experts in each area working together. The problem is, this is easier said than done. Many developers face a plateau when they start making money but struggle to take the next step—hiring people and growing the team. It’s a difficult decision because it feels like a step backward, but in the long run, this growth is essential for the project’s quality and potential to increase tenfold.

So, I’m putting this question out to you all: how would you approach this situation? If you were in my shoes, would you bother speaking up, or would you just let go and enjoy the game for what it is, keeping your thoughts to yourself? Would you listen to that nagging feeling that you have something to contribute? If you would speak up, how would you do it? How would you phrase your message to make sure it's constructive? I believe I can be as diplomatic as possible, but diplomacy has many flavors, and I’d really appreciate any advice or inspiration you might have.

Thank you so much for your consideration.

 

[Count Morado]

Does the developer request from their subscribers any input on how to make their product better?

If not, you do not offer unsolicited advice.
If they do, you offer your perspective with regard to what input they are seeking. If they are not seeking input on anything you want to suggest, you don't say a word.

You're a subscriber; you're not a client. And yes, there is a difference.

 

[Sir Gary Bummer]

First off, I totally agree with you on how difficult it is to properly convey tone via text. I worry way more about how people interpret what I write, compared to what I say.

Now, I can't speak for any other dev out there, but I always want to improve. The first step to improving in anything is knowing that there's room to do so. That said, there's obviously good and bad ways to convey such information.

Honestly, I'm thinking you could just ask the dev if they're interested in any advice. Maybe you could just shoot them a message like "Hey, I really like your game. There are a few areas where I think there's room to make the game even better, but I don't want to give unwelcome advice, so let me know if you're at all interested." Or something along those lines. That puts the ball in their court, so to speak.

 

[whowhawhy]

>phone
do they have a voice channel on their discord you could lure them into with the wordy words like those you just used in the op?

if i'm in a mood for reporting bugs/issues/etc. in the game, i just switch on autism and list the observed behavior vs the expected or desired one, maybe with a few arguments as to why it would be better in my opinion and why it wouldn't be hard to do. prefacing it with some words of apology / emphasis that it's neutral feedback and not entitled demands is fine if the setting is less formal (i.e. not a space fit for such feedback). i more often see software devs lamenting the underreporting of problems than reacting with hostility to advices from their userbase (and the latter group isn't hard to identify).

 

[woody554]

write a review. your notes will be ignored because you don't know what you're talking about, but that's the appropriate channel.

also your recycle bin works.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Does the developer request from their subscribers any input on how to make their product better?

If not, you do not offer unsolicited advice.
If they do, you offer your perspective with regard to what input they are seeking. If they are not seeking input on anything you want to suggest, you don't say a word.

You're a subscriber; you're not a client. And yes, there is a difference.

I more or less disagree here. All depend where the comment is made, how it is worded, and how the discussion is started.

A dev not requesting for input on how to improve does not necessarily mean that he wouldn't gladly accept such input.
Globally speaking, if he release what he create, it's because he's convinced that there's a given amount of quality in it. But when you're a creator, it's really easy to lure yourself. Like it's easy, when you've learned by yourself, to ignore the existence of a trick that would change everything.
Therefore, he can just believe that he's good enough and that there's no way, with his own capabilities, to improve what he's doing. Reason why he don't ask for advice, but would still be happy to have them.

Now, as I said, it depend where one is giving the advice.
Doing it on the game thread here isn't the same than doing it on the Patreon/whatever page. One is expected to be a free talk zone, where people discuss about all aspect of the game, while the other is more a professional space. You can have that discussion on the first one, but on the second one it would be a pure jerk move.

And it also depend how you are giving it.
There's a difference between "this is so average, why don't you [long explanation]", and "it's a good game, but it feel like 'this' could be improved, I can help you to do it if you want".
Personally I tend to be in between (I'm grumpy after all) when I'm doing it, and so far my intake are generally well received. In 7 years, only one dev took it badly.


The key point is in fact in the perception one have about his own creation. OP say that the game have a near perfect score... Would you ask for advice if you were in his position, or would you believe that you do good and probably have nothing to improve?
Like it's you, I know the answer. You're pragmatic, there's always place for improvement. But still, would you openly ask for it? For many people it would looks like an admission of weakness; "I'm not the great creator you all believe I am".


So, TL;DR:
If you do it here, and do it nicely, not throwing it on the dev's face but pointing the possible issue and proposing to share some knowledge you have... Personally in the dev shoes I would accept, even if I haven't initially asked for it.
An alternative, if the dev is a member, is to start all this in PM and wait for his answer, if he decide to answer.

 

[Count Morado]

I more or less disagree here. All depend where the comment is made, how it is worded, and how the discussion is started.

A dev not requesting for input on how to improve does not necessarily mean that he wouldn't gladly accept such input.
Globally speaking, if he release what he create, it's because he's convinced that there's a given amount of quality in it. But when you're a creator, it's really easy to lure yourself. Like it's easy, when you've learned by yourself, to ignore the existence of a trick that would change everything.
Therefore, he can just believe that he's good enough and that there's no way, with his own capabilities, to improve what he's doing. Reason why he don't ask for advice, but would still be happy to have them.

Now, as I said, it depend where one is giving the advice.
Doing it on the game thread here isn't the same than doing it on the Patreon/whatever page. One is expected to be a free talk zone, where people discuss about all aspect of the game, while the other is more a professional space. You can have that discussion on the first one, but on the second one it would be a pure jerk move.

And it also depend how you are giving it.
There's a difference between "this is so average, why don't you [long explanation]", and "it's a good game, but it feel like 'this' could be improved, I can help you to do it if you want".
Personally I tend to be in between (I'm grumpy after all) when I'm doing it, and so far my intake are generally well received. In 7 years, only one dev took it badly.


The key point is in fact in the perception one have about his own creation. OP say that the game have a near perfect score... Would you ask for advice if you were in his position, or would you believe that you do good and probably have nothing to improve?
Like it's you, I know the answer. You're pragmatic, there's always place for improvement. But still, would you openly ask for it? For many people it would looks like an admission of weakness; "I'm not the great creator you all believe I am".


So, TL;DR:
If you do it here, and do it nicely, not throwing it on the dev's face but pointing the possible issue and proposing to share some knowledge you have... Personally in the dev shoes I would accept, even if I haven't initially asked for it.
An alternative, if the dev is a member, is to start all this in PM and wait for his answer, if he decide to answer.

Everyone has their opinions on what they think would be better in a game, in a movie, in a book - I get that.

I'll put it this way - would you reach out to your favorite author of a successful novel or trilogy or anthology and say "Hey- I love your book(s) but I think you could address this to make it better?" No. No you would not.

Why would you do so with a successful, highly rated game that you find on here --- if the person doesn't solicit advice?

This was the huge red flag in OP:

But I also believe there are three key areas where the game falls short and is only mediocre at best. If the developer made even a small effort to address these issues, I believe the game could reach a level of greatness on par with directors like Scorsese or Kubrick.

As well as the length to justify why they think the developer would benefit from listening to them.

Let me put it this way: I would not approach a director of a local community theatre production, as a patron of their show, to tell them that I enjoy their play but if they make the changes I think they should make, they could be on par with Tony Award winning directors. That is not the purview of a patron. And how full of myself do I have to be to think my advice to a director would grant them such great insight to elevate their work? I mean, I'd have to have an even bigger ego than I do now.

And here, we're not even patrons (purchasers of a product) - even if a person is subscribing, they are subscribing because they see what that developer is doing and want to offer some financial support (or, a tip) for the good work they are doing.

The best way to do it is to:

write a review.

No, We'll have to agree to disagree. If an author, an artist, a creator, a developer, whomever is not asking for advice - you don't offer it. Period. The end. That is, unless you are their editor, their manager, their client.

 

[GordonShock]

Sir Gary Bummer

That's actually what I've been leaning towards for a while, and since I'm on the game's Discord server, I have a direct access to the dev, and we've exchanged a good many DM there already. We are already acquainted.

anne O'nymous

Everything you wrote is on point, and I align perfectly with your vision of how it should be done.

Few points though:

I feel that star systems have lost their meaning a while ago, across the board. We now have companies of all stripes now offering rewards in exchange for Google reviews for instance. Also, some folks here use the star system to "punish" devs whose games are not what they wanted, instead of rating a game for what it is, and what it's trying to be/accomplish. If any forum mod is reading this, perhaps a primer on how to rate games could be a good idea? I'm more than willing to write it.

I thought about leaving a review here, but even with the best of intentions, I feel like this is a dick move. As mentioned above, I have direct access to the dev on Discord, and will do it there, privately.

Yesterday, Mark Brown released his newest video, and it was on the lessons he learned in the past ten years, and I feel like the fundamentals of lessons 9 apply here.


Playtesting doesn't seem to be widespread in this adult game ecosystem, and that's a shame. Furthermore, and as you pointed out, the game has a near perfect score, so why would the dev believe there is room for improvement? I do not feel this is the case here, as this particular dev has the best attitude and approach with their interaction with players here. From day one, they showed tremendous openness and willingness to discuss any problems players may have, and much more. But still...

Finally, attitude is everything, and although my intentions are pure, figuratively speaking, I am a no-nonsense blunt type of guy. I believe complacency is the enemy of growth, and if I am to share feedback it will be what it is, sans the sugar-coating. However I'm glad you share your experience on the willingness of devs to take in feedback.

Appreciate the input from all.

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

I know if I ever received opinions/advice from someone who types so formally, it'd immediately sour my opinion of them. I'd still read it and take it into account, but first impressions would be "Alright, here's a guy who thinks he know better than everyone, and has nothing to back that up." Not saying that's you, but devs deal with that kind of thing all the time unfortunately. There are many people who offer "advice" with no regard to feasibility (for whatever reason. Time, ability, cost, etc.)

 

[anne O'nymous]

I'll put it this way - would you reach out to your favorite author of a successful novel or trilogy or anthology and say "Hey- I love your book(s) but I think you could address this to make it better?" No. No you would not.

I would not, because writing isn't my field.
But, if like OP, "[that area] happen to be my field of expertise ", why should I refrain myself to help a fellow writer whose book I appreciate? At least in the way I said, therefore without trying to impose myself, nor shaming him.

Why would you do so with a successful, highly rated game that you find on here --- if the person doesn't solicit advice?

I return you the question: Why would I leave someone waste his talent, when few pointers, from someone who genuinely know what he talk about, could raise him above the clouds?

Let's take a practical example: Ecchi Sensei.
It was a successful and highly rated game, that had flaws in its design. The dev listened to some of my pointers, but he discarded the main one, "give obvious name to your variables". He preferred to stay with "h123" or names like that, what made the game unmanageable after two years of development.
He tried to rework everything for two years, with an attempt of update two years ago, and probably now just disappeared.
This simply because he lost track about what variable meant what. Hard to keep your motivation when you've to browse two hundreds lookalike variables each time you need to branch your story depending on a previously made choice. Yet, this is assuming that he had, somewhere, a file commenting the said variables. If that file don't exist, he need to browse two years of code each time he need to reuse a variable, what quickly mean passing more time doing this than actually adding content to the game.

And it's far to be the only example. There's many games that were really successful and highly rated, but that would have benefited from some advice regarding their code. And, because those advice weren't there, or because the dev ego prevented him to listen (people are waiting the third rewrite since something like 5 years), or because he falsely believed that it was too difficult for him to follow them (this one is sad), those games are now abandoned. And just just because the code wasn't designed to be bearable over a years long period of development, what could be changed without real difficulties even for an amateur.

So, should I stay silent when I witness such issues, and let a dev unnecessarily exhaust himself, until a good, successful, highly rated, and appreciated game, increase the number of abandoned games? Or should I try to give some pointers to the said dev, in hope that he'll listen, knowing that if he do, a day will come when we will see the conclusion of that story?

Now, I know that this is a particular case, and in fact the exception to the rule. Improvable writing, improvable CGs or improvable UI will not lead a game to its abandon, while messed code will most of the time, alas.

This was the huge red flag in OP:

Reason why I only "more or less disagree" with you.

Everything depend on the way you're doing it, and I never said that OP was showing proof that he would do it right. Yet, with such inflated ego I'm well placed to know that there's sometimes a big difference between the way someone present an issue, and the way he would deal with it. I'm way less grumpily direct when talking to a dev about his code, than I can be in another context.

As well as the length to justify why they think the developer would benefit from listening to them.

Do you know him? Personally I don't.
I'm asking this because I know that many readers will not question my take regarding Ecchi Sensei, knowing that I'm talking about a topic that I relatively master. But OP... We only have his word regarding his expertise. So, by itself, him trying to explain it don't bother me this much; especially since he started by saying that he's not at ease with this form of communication.

Let me put it this way: I would not approach a director of a local community theatre production, as a patron of their show, to tell them that I enjoy their play but if they make the changes I think they should make, they could be on par with Tony Award winning directors.

Yet, when you listen to actors, stage directors, and so on, all the successful ones have a story about "that day where a colleague came to given them an advice that changed everything".

You're not doing it because you're not a colleague. But if, like OP say it is for him, it would be your domain of expertise, would you really not give it a try, during a friendly chat between peoples working on the same field, just because you happen to also be a patron?
Have you never ever in your life gone to a senior/superior where you work, to say that "perhaps this could be better if"?

That is not the purview of a patron. And how full of myself do I have to be to think my advice to a director would grant them such great insight to elevate their work? I mean, I'd have to have an even bigger ego than I do now.

Once again, you focus on the "patron" part and forget the "expertise" one.
It's understandable, it's not like this forum lack of nobodies trying to force their view on a game direction. And I agree that the opening don't necessarily give the right vibes. But, perhaps is it because stand in both side, struggling with some form of communication, while having an expertise to share, here I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt.
At worse he made a fool of himself, and soon enough people will know to not care about what he's saying. At best a game will be even better than it already is, and a creator will improve one of his skills.

 

[Count Morado]

Yet, when you listen to actors, stage directors, and so on, all the successful ones have a story about "that day where a colleague came to given them an advice that changed everything".

I made this distinction quite clear in my post.

OP is NOT a colleague. OP is a subscriber.

IF OP WAS a colleague. If OP WAS a developer with whom the other developer had a working or adjacent relationship with - that would be a different conversation.

OP is not. OP is a subscriber. OP is a player.

You're not doing it because you're not a colleague. But if, like OP say it is for him, it would be your domain of expertise, would you really not give it a try, during a friendly chat between peoples working on the same field, just because you happen to also be a patron?
Have you never ever in your life gone to a senior/superior where you work, to say that "perhaps this could be better if"?

OP SAYS it is their expertise. I could say my expertise is cliff diver and scuba diver. It's not-- but I could say it is. Does that make it so?

And again, you keep putting it back into exactly the realm I say is the exception. Where work colleagues, managers, clients, etc HAVE the implicit and explicit permission to possibly offer exceptions.

No. The answer is absolutely not. Not unless the developer is actively seeking suggestions to improve their work. As a player, as a subscriber - that is not your realm to offer suggestions unsolicited.

Now, if OP and the developer had a relationship of some sort, already, about the work or if OP was recognized by the developer as someone who has expertise (and not just simply OP saying they have expertise) --- again this would be a slightly different conversation.

But OP does not have that relationship already built.
Op is not recognized by the developer as someone with that expertise.

Again, this would be like a guy who armchair quarterbacks a football game thinking he could go up to a successful coach at nearly any level of play and say "Hey, I think you are doing great - but there are three areas I think you could do better and become a champion."

 

[anne O'nymous]

OP SAYS it is their expertise. I could say my expertise is cliff diver and scuba diver. It's not-- but I could say it is. Does that make it so?

Well, if you would start a thread saying that you live near a cliff diving spot and that, being an expert in cliff diving, you wonder if you should go to them, and help them to improve, why should I doubt about your expertise?
Who would start a thread purely based on a faked expertise, and do it just to ask if it should use that faked expertise to help people to improve?

It's not like he started one of the many "dev's are stupid, it's how they should do it" threads. Here he's asking what is the best way to share that expertise in order to help others to improve what is already not too bad quality creations.
And I put the emphasis on "not too bad" because you know as well as me that all this is relative. Especially when it come to something like adult games, where players are split between those who only care about how often there's sex, those who don't see more than the tities and cunt in a CG, those who want immersive story, and so on. What is "good" for some is also totally irrelevant for others, and a game with a lot of sex and stupid writing can still have a 4.5 rating if it's noticed by the right crowd.

And again, you keep putting it back into exactly the realm I say is the exception. Where work colleagues, managers, clients, etc HAVE the implicit and explicit permission to possibly offer exceptions.

And from where come his expertise, if not because it's his working field? I mean, he didn't said that he "know about", like amateurs or hobbyists would do. Nor did he explicitly said that he's an expert, but that it's his field of expertise, therefore what he's doing to live.
Of course, he isn't a direct colleague, but neither are the stage directors who give a friendly advice to another one, to keep my example. They are just peoples who happen to operate in the same field, one sharing his experience with the other because, from his point of view, it would be benefit for both the person he talk to and its public.

No. The answer is absolutely not. Not unless the developer is actively seeking suggestions to improve their work. As a player, as a subscriber - that is not your realm to offer suggestions unsolicited.

And so, a dev who's so focused on the quality of his renders, and therefore don't notice that his poses are awkward, should stay in the dark and never be told that slightly bending an arm or a leg, and/or slightly tilting the head, would improve by 50% the natural of the said poses?
This just because, after one year struggling alone with Daz Studio, he see the progress he made way more that the small details that can still be improved, and therefore don't ask for advice?

I agree with Insomnimaniac Games that the tone is also important, but from my point of view, if a dev is active in his game thread, it's not purely for marketing reasons; there's better place to promote your game, than a piracy forum where 99% of the player will never pledge. He's also interested by players feedback, hoping that some of them will see what himself can't see, because he's looking at the project from a too close point of view.

Now, if OP and the developer had a relationship of some sort, already, about the work or if OP was recognized by the developer as someone who has expertise (and not just simply OP saying they have expertise) --- again this would be a slightly different conversation.

And how the dev can see OP as someone who have some expertise, if none of them ever talk to each others? How OP will demonstrate his expertise, if he's not allowed to talk about it in place where the dev will see it?

When I give some pointers to a dev about his code, I generally do it by explaining the issue I see, and I conclude by the said pointers. After, it's up to the dev to decide what he do with it.
I don't shame him, I don't throw myself at him, I just explain something that he can perfectly discard because seeing it as irrelevant. He wasn't aware of the issue, else it wouldn't exist, and therefore wasn't seeking for advice.

But OP does not have that relationship already built.
Op is not recognized by the developer as someone with that expertise.

Nor was I when I started to give some pointers years ago.
And even now there's way more devs who aren't aware of my expertise than the opposite. But those who know, know it because I had the possibility to prove myself. An opportunity that you clearly deny to OP.

Again, this would be like a guy who armchair quarterbacks a football game thinking he could go up to a successful coach at nearly any level of play and say "Hey, I think you are doing great - but there are three areas I think you could do better and become a champion."

I'm pretty sure that if a Tom Brady was armchair coaching, people would listen to him. Yet he's not a colleague, just a retired guy who used to be on the field.
So, the question here is "why are you so convinced that his expertise is faked" ?

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

Anne and the Count are fighting! F95 is gonna have an awkward Christmas!

 

[Count Morado]

I'm pretty sure that if a Tom Brady was armchair coaching, people would listen to him.

Anne ... I was going to make a full reply to your post - but when you continue to post these troll comments. I'm done. You know EXACTLY what the point of the post was and you keep twisting it with ridiculous exceptions. I ALREADY COVERED that - because Tom Brady IS experienced, he IS a colleague of football teams, he DOES have a history.

OP has not shown that they have ANY of that. They appear to be simply a player who has ideas that THEY THINK would be good for the developer to know. Hell, they haven't even offered any idea what those ideas are. Just that they are "ideas."

You are taking OP at their word that they have expertise. It's not something I have seen them exhibit in the threads previously.

I'm done with this conversation and moving on. If you want to keep putting in "but what if they are Tom Brady" and "what if they ... XYZ" when I have already covered those continencies - you are not being authentic in this discourse, but simply being argumentative with empty rhetoric because we disagree.

As a teacher of creative writers. As a former director and producer of over 100 theatrical performances (Anne, if you want my resume - redacted - let me know). As a former database translator for campaigns --- I will stated that I would advise anyone who receives unsolicited advice from fans to be kind in their response and to deposit it where it belongs, in the circular bin. If the creatives are actively seeking advice from fans on certain aspects of their creations - fans should limit their comments to those aspects. If the creatives have a working relationship - either as a colleague, a mentor, a mentee, a knowledgeable expert in the field and they, they know they will not receive unsolicited advice without first that person approaching them to ask if they would like some input based upon their experience with the product on aspects a, b, and c.

But if the creatives are doing none of that - OP should not offer their advice.

This has gotten redundant, reductive, and ridiculous.

 

[whowhawhy]

they will not receive unsolicited advice without first that person approaching them to ask if they would like some input

irl - ok

in an anonymous online environment - fuck this waste of an undefined amount of time, you can preface what you want to say with it or with enough disclaimers you deem necessary (although op appears to be someone who'd be willing to do it), and the receiver has all the power to decide if, when and how they'll intercept it.
you never know when anonymous people will disappear from the internet without a sign of life or a way to confirm what happened to them, no matter how established their internet persona is.

creatives

anne (and my more limited input here) is leaning towards the technical side of things, you're focusing on the freedom of artistic expression. the op is vague enough it can be read to be about either.

personally, i don't view games as art (with an acknowledgement of indie devs possibly making a game just for themselves and like-minded people) and even if i were to offer feedback on more creative stuff, it'd be in a manner of packaging it as a description of user experience, and likely in relation to how it interacts with the parts the user is in control of (so the dev can decide whether it's a bug, a feature, or if i'm an idiot in need of handholding, and if adjustments to that part of the design matter to them, without having to engage in a cat and mouse game of asking for clarifications).