Incest !roleplay! tagging policy on this site, and permissibility on Patreon?

[doe50818]

Hey!

I was curious about two things regarding incest roleplay in games:

Are the games still tagged incest here if it's just roleplay between two characters who are clearly established by the story as people who are not actually related?

Is content with such roleplay allowed on Patreon, or does it still fall under the same incest umbrella term and is therefore against their rules?

I'm just trying to gauge the extent to which I need to "censor" my upcoming game to be Patreon, and F95Zone compliant (I don't want it tagged incest here when it's not, there will definitely be user complaints).

 

[Thermophob]

I can remember few games with incest roleplay, but as far as I remember, Patreon didn't object. For example, there is such scene in Defending Lydia Collier (Depending on your choices, MC has daddy/daughter roleplay with gf he met recently).

 

[doe50818]

I can remember few games with incest roleplay, but as far as I remember, Patreon didn't object. For example, there is such scene in Defending Lydia Collier (Depending on your choices, MC has daddy/daughter roleplay with gf he met recently).

That's a good point, but there it's just a nickname she slaps onto your MC during sex. It's not that simple in my case. As the characters in question will become lovers from complete strangers, the frequency at which they delve into incest roleplay territory will progressively increase. It's not just something the chick calls the guy during sex, there will be more situations where they will live out this daddy-daughter fantasy that aren't even remotely related to sex, it's just a measure of how their relationship develops. It's an entire progression path of a very particular kind of relationship dynamic, not some random thing to say that can be arbitrarily substituted with any other word which you could say arguably makes it... sketchy.

 

[Carrera]

When in doubt, don't.

Basically, if you have to ask about it, then you probably shouldn't do it.

 

[arcaos]

In a world where "Daddy" and "Mommy" are normal kink words in a non-incest context, there would be a ton of false positives if patreon cracked down on roleplaying. That said, I can't blame anyone for being overly cautious when their livelihood depends on it.

 

[Thermophob]

That's a good point, but there it's just a nickname she slaps onto your MC during sex. It's not that simple in my case. As the characters in question will become lovers from complete strangers, the frequency at which they delve into incest roleplay territory will progressively increase. It's not just something the chick calls the guy during sex, there will be more situations where they will live out this daddy-daughter fantasy that aren't even remotely related to sex, it's just a measure of how their relationship develops. It's an entire progression path of a very particular kind of relationship dynamic, not some random thing to say that can be arbitrarily substituted with any other word which you could say arguably makes it... sketchy.

You may ask Patreon support before uploading. Anyway, what I think is that if it can be established beyond reasonable doubt that characters are not related, Patreon won't object. They only care about plausible deniability.

 

[doe50818]

In a world where "Daddy" and "Mommy" are normal kink words in a non-incest context, there would be a ton of false positives if patreon cracked down on roleplaying. That said, I can't blame anyone for being overly cautious when their livelihood depends on it.

I don't expect to make a living with what I've got (which is about a 200k character unfinished script written in two weeks without code for staging visual elements), especially for a first attempt, but that doesn't mean I don't take the project as seriously as possible to leave that possibility open.
I don't intend to make a career or a quick buck, especially not with the hardware I've got (2700X,16GB RAM,1660Ti), I just want to explore certain story directions I haven't seen depicted in the 340 or so VNs I played so far... even if the tropes sound familiar, the way they play out definitely won't be!

You may ask Patreon support before uploading. Anyway, I think if it can be established beyond reasonable doubt that characters are not related, I doubt Patreon will care. They only care about plausible deniability.

I'll do that when push comes to shove, but I'd do that as a last resort option, because if I send them a block of text explaining the extent of my use of the subject, they could just choose to trivialize the issue and offer a blanket statement saying 'no' the first time they read the word 'incest' without reading to the end. But currently I'm more concerned about avoiding the tag on F95Zone, I can always offer an "incest patch" on like a Discord server if it would be an issue for Patreon. I don't want to end up on itch or subscribestar because they have a negative connotation...

 

[moskyx]

I don't expect to make a living with what I've got (which is about a 200k character unfinished script written in two weeks without code for staging visual elements), especially for a first attempt, but that doesn't mean I don't take the project as seriously as possible to leave that possibility open.
I don't intend to make a career or a quick buck, especially not with the hardware I've got (2700X,16GB RAM,1660Ti), I just want to explore certain story directions I haven't seen depicted in the 340 or so VNs I played so far... even if the tropes sound familiar, the way they play out definitely won't be!




I'll do that when push comes to shove, but I'd do that as a last resort option, because if I send them a block of text explaining the extent of my use of the subject, they could just choose to trivialize the issue and offer a blanket statement saying 'no' the first time they read the word 'incest' without reading to the end. But currently I'm more concerned about avoiding the tag on F95Zone, I can always offer an "incest patch" on like a Discord server if it would be an issue for Patreon. I don't want to end up on itch or subscribestar because they have a negative connotation...

As others have said, when in doubt, then it's probably not a good idea. Reading your description I'd say you're dangerously bordering Patreon's concept for incest and you'd be safe regarding the incest tag on here, But anyway, it's better to express your concerns to their respective admins than opening this thread, because with their official answer at least you'll have some solid ground to decide. Then it's all up to you.

About the negative connotation of itch.io and SubscribeStar... well, every platform has its own pros and cons but I wouldn't say those have negative connotations per se, it's just that some people don't want to use them especially SS due to PayPal/credit card companies not working with them, and also because it's not very friendly with small devs, at least in terms of cash withdrawals. I've never heard anything bad about itch.io but I never paid too much attention to it. But content wise you'd be safe. Then again, you say it's a first attempt, with no big money expectations... well, you can always try to release the game for free on this forum or your own blog/website and just gain some buzz and exposure for your next non-controversial projects - you may even get some people interested enough in your skills to offer you a role in their own projects, who knows?

 

[doe50818]

As others have said, when in doubt, then it's probably not a good idea. Reading your description I'd say you're dangerously bordering Patreon's concept for incest and you'd be safe regarding the incest tag on here, But anyway, it's better to express your concerns to their respective admins than opening this thread, because with their official answer at least you'll have some solid ground to decide. Then it's all up to you.

About the negative connotation of itch.io and SubscribeStar... well, every platform has its own pros and cons but I wouldn't say those have negative connotations per se, it's just that some people don't want to use them especially SS due to PayPal/credit card companies not working with them, and also because it's not very friendly with small devs, at least in terms of cash withdrawals. I've never heard anything bad about itch.io but I never paid too much attention to it. But content wise you'd be safe. Then again, you say it's a first attempt, with no big money expectations... well, you can always try to release the game for free on this forum or your own blog/website and just gain some buzz and exposure for your next non-controversial projects - you may even get some people interested enough in your skills to offer you a role in their own projects, who knows?

"When in doubt, don't" doesn't work for an integral element of story progression, I stated from the beginning that I just want to gauge the extent to which I need to censor the game to be Patreon compliant, i.e. how much content I have to put in a patch, and when in the story I have to begin patching out content. I asked here, because here people have more experience (and patience) with VNs and incest than Patreon would, so while Patreon staff would be the judge of this at the end, F95zone members have the upper hand when it comes to judging different levels of the theme (how much of the content is going too far).

 

[Thermophob]

But currently I'm more concerned about avoiding the tag on F95Zone, I can always offer an "incest patch" on like a Discord server if it would be an issue for Patreon. I don't want to end up on itch or subscribestar because they have a negative connotation...

Well, I don't get why are you so concerned about tag here. Tags here are just for easier search for content. I don't think Patreon team actually monitor. Besides, definition of incest on this site is wider than Patreon's. There are games which do have incest tag, and they are not defined as incest on Patreon. Examples, any games where MC bangs his stepmother.... (as is new wife of father). Or to go more specific, Cure My Addiction. In this game MC has sexual relations with his aunt by marriage, her daughter from previous relation, and her adopted daughter. Game was developed, and finished on Patreon, with such story. There is no incest patch, and nobody tried to implement in anyway (it would requite complete rewrite. Anyway, since definition of incest here is wider, game was tagged as incest, and there was no complaints. Another game tagged as incest, which Patreon didn't define as incest is Freeloading Family (MC starts sexual relationship with his new stepsister, their parents recently got married). There are other examples, also.
As far as subsribestar, I don't think it has negative connotation. It's more like Patreon offers more advantages, it accepts PayPal, there is no limit for pulling money, easier to use, and of course wider exposure.

 

[moskyx]

Well, I don't get why are you so concerned about tag here. Tags here are just for easier search for content. I don't think Patreon team actually monitor. Besides, definition of incest on this site is wider than Patreon's. There are games which do have incest tag, and they are not defined as incest on Patreon. Examples, any games where MC bangs his stepmother.... (as is new wife of father). Or to go more specific, Cure My Addiction. In this game MC has sexual relations with his aunt by marriage, her daughter from previous relation, and her adopted daughter. Game was developed, and finished on Patreon, with such story. There is no incest patch, and nobody tried to implement in anyway (it would requite complete rewrite. Anyway, since definition of incest here is wider, game was tagged as incest, and there was no complaints. Another game tagged as incest, which Patreon didn't define as incest is Freeloading Family (MC starts sexual relationship with his new stepsister, their parents recently got married). There are other examples, also.
As far as subsribestar, I don't think it has negative connotation. It's more like Patreon offers more advantages, it accepts PayPal, there is no limit for pulling money, easier to use, and of course wider exposure.

I agree a tag here is just a tag, a search filter, and if the game have any relationship we could reaonably label as incest, it gets the tag. Which is OK. But I don't think F95 has a wider definition of incest than Patreon, quite the opposite, as I said before my guess is that the game won't be tagged here as incest but could be on the verge of being banned from Patreon. What happens is that all those games you mentioned just went under Patreon's radar, I guess no one have ever reported them and that's all. Which is why OP shouldn't be that worried, worst case scenario is you get a 'change or remove that content' warning from Patreon, and then you're deplatformed if you don't accept their ultimatum. Which can raise your notoriety here, playing the victim card right.

"When in doubt, don't" doesn't work for an integral element of story progression, I stated from the beginning that I just want to gauge the extent to which I need to censor the game to be Patreon compliant, i.e. how much content I have to put in a patch, and when in the story I have to begin patching out content. I asked here, because here people have more experience (and patience) with VNs and incest than Patreon would, so while Patreon staff would be the judge of this at the end, F95zone members have the upper hand when it comes to judging different levels of the theme (how much of the content is going too far).

My guess would be that from the moment those characters start to act like a real family or step family or whatever out of sack, it's when you're entering Patreon's red zone. On F95, I doubt a heavy roleplaying like the one you're describing could get the incest tag, although some players will probably get the game wrong, thinking your characters are actually family from the start and they didn't know it yet or you were just trying to evade Patreon's first scrutiny by crafting a story that don't reveal they are family till later on, so they'll ask for the tag to be added. But that's just my opinion on the matter. My advice would be a)ask Patreon directly and as explicitly as possible to make sure they really understand what's the story you want to tell, and wait for their approval; b)don't ask them and just go for it all in until you get their warning; c)just forget Patreon as your income source. You can choose the order.

 

[Benn Swagger]

Don't forget, not all Patreon admin have the same mind. Some are okay with the grey area, some just saw it as black and white.

 

[doe50818]

My guess would be that from the moment those characters start to act like a real family or step family or whatever out of sack, it's when you're entering Patreon's red zone. On F95, I doubt a heavy roleplaying like the one you're describing could get the incest tag, although some players will probably get the game wrong, thinking your characters are actually family from the start and they didn't know it yet or you were just trying to evade Patreon's first scrutiny by crafting a story that don't reveal they are family till later on, so they'll ask for the tag to be added. But that's just my opinion on the matter. My advice would be a)ask Patreon directly and as explicitly as possible to make sure they really understand what's the story you want to tell, and wait for their approval; b)don't ask them and just go for it all in until you get their warning; c)just forget Patreon as your income source. You can choose the order.

Thanks, this was the most definitive answer I feel I could've gotten outside of Patreon. You really covered all corners there, lol. I mean, my character lost his daughter to foster care, and it wouldn't be far fetched to presume that pretty much any player would point at any young chick I put in the game and say "THAT is the daughter, 100%, they just don't know it yet!", but I already anticipated that and took precautions:

She won't be in the game at all (I guess that's a spoiler but meh...), only in form of an old family picture, and to make it abundantly clear that this "she was the daughter she lost all along" scenario is not the case with anyone he'll ever meet, I've already written the story so the MC wouldn't have had lost his daughter at an age early enough for them not to be able to recognize each other pretty much immediately. The family picture is also making sure of that where his real daughter looks like... I don't know, between 6-8.