Ren'Py Innocence or Money [S2 E3] [MarcialART]

[xert13]

its not just about this game, every adult (or subscription based) game "almost always" start milking subscribers after 1 or 2 years when they got popularity and fan base. compare a game's current update cycle with the time they just did the initial v.0.1 release, where they do regular 2 - 3 months updates and include lots of content to cement the fan base and get enough subs.

almost all popular games here do the same. Because normally you sell a product and get the money. When you get the money before that.. well its very open to abuse. That's why there are lots of scammers in kickstarter too. just google "Marginal utility" , "diminishing Marginal utility"

Yes, there are a few Devs that appear to do what you say, but not to the extent you claim. Consider that after a few updates, depending on the story, there are usually more story lines to develop - especially in a choice based game. There could be three (or four) paths. Some Devs write themselves into a corner. New Devs underestimate the complexity until they are deep into development. Furthermore, most Devs do this as a side gig, juggling family and real jobs. Some are very quick (not saying you are one of them) to cry “milking” whenever an update takes longer then they deem necessary. It is especially rich considering most on here get it for free, yet feel entitled to bitch about it. Again, not directed at you - there are a few Devs that certainly seem to abuse their subs. I do not think this Dev is one of them, but opinions may vary.

 

[chinesewarrior]

Yes, there are a few Devs that appear to do what you say, but not to the extent you claim. Consider that after a few updates, depending on the story, there are usually more story lines to develop - especially in a choice based game. There could be three (or four) paths. Some Devs write themselves into a corner. New Devs underestimate the complexity until they are deep into development. Furthermore, most Devs do this as a side gig, juggling family and real jobs. Some are very quick (not saying you are one of them) to cry “milking” whenever an update takes longer then they deem necessary. It is especially rich considering most on here get it for free, yet feel entitled to bitch about it. Again, not directed at you - there are a few Devs that certainly seem to abuse their subs. I do not think this Dev is one of them, but opinions may vary.

I compare games with their early stage/initial releases and current period mostly. Look Jessica O'neal Hard News, somebody leaked how much dev earns a month in the topic, around 2k$ without literally doing nothing (that dev updates once a year tops at most or longer)

ok there are some complicated games that story is like witcher , many ways many paths etc. that makes the Devs lost when it gets deep. Do you think Innocence or Money is one of those games ?

For example Fashion Business is very very complicated game about choices and paths many endings(and despite this he updates regularly). Our Red String, Good Girl Gone Bad are also very complicated, Manilla Shaw are also like that. Very complex, many paths. If you are the dev of these games you need to work like as if you are working for some full fledged rpg game. hundreds of different dialogues, related with different paths etc. I mean its very hard to develop these kind of games.

But for me, Innocence or Money, Office Wife, Anna Exciting Affection, Laura Lustful Secrets etc. are very linear games (despite they are also very good games) they do not have that many paths not too deep not that complex like others. There are slut choices and good girl choices at most.

*I compared them with deepness and complexity, not with their hot scenes or render quality.

I would never say there are no dev that do what you say, I just say that it's very difficult to prove that this dev here is such a scammer.

Btw... What is that ? Marginal utility ? Wtf ?
Marginal utility (the fact it is decreasing) is just a way to say that the more you give units of a product to someone, the less this someone likes such addition : you give a glass of water to someone that is thirsty, he/she will enjoy drinking this water a lot but the more you give water to this person afterwards, the less he/she will like it until even refusing next offers...
Can you explain to me what this concept has to do with abuse in platforms like Kickstarter or Patreon ? I am curious... ^^

As a subscriber, I use another metric, far more simple, to judge this dev's work here : his productivity (efficiency), I mean how much content done in how much time.
At the beginning, he said he wanted to be able to make 15 minutes of content in 2 months. Update after update, the pace of releases decreased to become 1 hour of content in 5 months. YES less releases per year BUT his productivity increased to reach the current level...

What you said here is not serious: without any proof you decided to conclude that most of devs here are scammers without exploring other explanations...

Marginal Utility like you described When you are hungry you need more pizza, but after you start eating, your need decreases.

So because these adult games are like "pay first/develop later" (not like conventional steam games develop first/get paid later) , in the beginning they are very in need, they make very consistent and good updates because they dont have income, they dont have fan base.

So after a while, 1-2 years later, they start not to care it too much. They dont have that need anymore ) thats why there are hundreds of adult games out there they start as good but later abondoned or never finished.

I am ok with 1 hour of content in 5 months, but describe 1 hour of content 5 minutes sex scene and 55 minutes of boring dialogues ?
this is also very open to abuse.

 

[Rionausername]

not bad ... i just dont like the slow burn, this game is 4 years old and i feel like theres a lot of missed oportunity for a hot scene and all we get is a back massage ...

 

[HikBenAkk]

I compare games with their early stage/initial releases and current period mostly. Look Jessica O'neal Hard News, somebody leaked how much dev earns a month in the topic, around 2k$ without literally doing nothing (that dev updates once a year tops at most or longer)

ok there are some complicated games that story is like witcher , many ways many paths etc. that makes the Devs lost when it gets deep. Do you think Innocence or Money is one of those games ?

Come on chinesewarrior !
Nobody ever asks here to compare the complexity of this game with a game like the Witcher made by CD Projekt knowing their financial means and team size... This dev is alone... Let us stay serious please...

For example Fashion Business is very very complicated game about choices and paths many endings(and despite this he updates regularly). Our Red String, Good Girl Gone Bad are also very complicated, Manilla Shaw are also like that. Very complex, many paths. If you are the dev of these games you need to work like as if you are working for some full fledged rpg game. hundreds of different dialogues, related with different paths etc. I mean its very hard to develop these kind of games.

But for me, Innocence or Money, Office Wife, Anna Exciting Affection, Laura Lustful Secrets etc. are very linear games (despite they are also very good games) they do not have that many paths not too deep not that complex like others. There are slut choices and good girl choices at most.

*I compared them with deepness and complexity, not with their hot scenes or render quality.

I already said it to you : you compare things that you are not sure to make sense being compared...
Compare devs with each other can give you a little overview about doable and not doable things but nothing more...
There are too many parameters not easy to know...

• This dev says he is alone to do everything... Is it the case for Fashion Business ?
• Are you sure experience in making games can be compared between this dev and Fashion Business one ? The less experienced needs more time... I have no idea about Fashion Business dev team, I do not follow them...
• Do you know how much time per day both devs can spend making their game ? In case you think devs must be 200% devoted to making their game putting aside everything else in their life, you redefine modern slavery...

Btw, I played Fashion Business two years ago... I did not liked it (another story)...
Joke put aside...
Those questions are important to be able to answer in order to the comparison between developers to make sense.
That's why I don't do that because I do not know anything about devs IRL...

I said it above, my main metric is productivity and compare the amount of content the dev WAS able to produce with the amount of content he IS currently producing.
My conclusion is this dev's productivity never decreased : easy to check, on Patreon page you have his reports allowing to calculate this dev's productivity...

If I see productivity of a dev I support to decrease drastically (let us say he suddenly does in a year what he was already able to do in six months), I ask him what is happening and given his reply, I decide whether I stay a subsciber or not...

Marginal Utility like you described When you are hungry you need more pizza, but after you start eating, your need decreases.

So because these adult games are like "pay first/develop later" (not like conventional steam games develop first/get paid later) , in the beginning they are very in need, they make very consistent and good updates because they dont have income, they dont have fan base.

So after a while, 1-2 years later, they start not to care it too much. They dont have that need anymore )

I still do not get it... Pay first develop later ? Nope... that definition fits Kickstarter but not Patreon (this dev is on Patreon and Subscribestar)
So after a while, 1-2 years later, they start not to care it too much. They dont have that need anymore ??
What do you mean by it(underlined) ? Money ? In the context of your theory, you must clearly identify the product that is given... As a subscriber, I give money to the dev (the pizza in you example)...
I am not convinced... I do not know anyone who claim that they have got enough money, even billionaires...

[...] thats why there are hundreds of adult games out there they start as good but later abondoned or never finished.

Nope... Most games here are abandoned for two main reasons :

• The dev, that was not experienced enough, made serious design mistakes and never find the courage to fix them : After a while the mistakes have more and more impact until they slow down development to the point of discouraging the dev to continue making the game...
• The dev never was able to find a proper balance between privacy and time spent on creating a game in his/her free time... he/she faces the choice to risk burn out with relationship with his/her relatives or abandon the developement of his/her game. Those games are mostly NSFW by definition, relatives may disagree and put pressure to give up...

I am ok with 1 hour of content in 5 months, but describe 1 hour of content 5 minutes sex scene and 55 minutes of boring dialogues ?
this is also very open to abuse.

Boring you said ? You always speak about your taste as if it was universal... Come on... To be fair and objective, one must be neutral...

An hour of content is for me 1-2 sec per line to read while watching the pics and that regardless whether I like it or not... The fact you do not like content made, does NOT deprive it being content that took time and effort to be made by the dev...

You always speak of milking but without proof, no one can follow you... Stop it... This dev never lied about the problems he is facing and he never deceived his subscribers about anything he does for the game...

For example, the remaster you do not like : no milking because he posted about his decision to work on it BEFORE starting it and he even advised those who disagree to suspend their subscription and are free to come back when he resumed working on new content. Adult discussion : the dev takes his own decision, subscribers take their...

Admit it : the "problem" was never the developers you claim to be milking their subscribers, it is just that Patreon is a business model that is not for you...

 

[wildride69]

Come on chinesewarrior !
Nobody ever asks here to compare the complexity of this game with a game like the Witcher made by CD Projekt knowing their financial means and team size... This dev is alone... Let us stay serious please...



I already said it to you : you compare things that you are not sure to make sense being compared...
Compare devs with each other can give you a little overview about doable and not doable things but nothing more...
There are too many parameters not easy to know...

• This dev says he is alone to do everything... Is it the case for Fashion Business ?
• Are you sure experience in making games can be compared between this dev and Fashion Business one ? The less experienced needs more time... I have no idea about Fashion Business dev team, I do not follow them...
• Do you know how much time per day both devs can spend making their game ? In case you think devs must be 200% devoted to making their game putting aside everything else in their life, you redefine modern slavery...

Btw, I played Fashion Business two years ago... I did not liked it (another story)...
Joke put aside...
Those questions are important to be able to answer in order to the comparison between developers to make sense.
That's why I don't do that because I do not know anything about devs IRL...

I said it above, my main metric is productivity and compare the amount of content the dev WAS able to produce with the amount of content he IS currently producing.
My conclusion is this dev's productivity never decreased : easy to check, on Patreon page you have his reports allowing to calculate this dev's productivity...

If I see productivity of a dev I support to decrease drastically (let us say he suddenly does in a year what he was already able to do in six months), I ask him what is happening and given his reply, I decide whether I stay a subsciber or not...



I still do not get it... Pay first develop later ? Nope... that definition fits Kickstarter but not Patreon (this dev is on Patreon and Subscribestar)
So after a while, 1-2 years later, they start not to care it too much. They dont have that need anymore ??
What do you mean by it(underlined) ? Money ? In the context of your theory, you must clearly identify the product that is given... As a subscriber, I give money to the dev (the pizza in you example)...
I am not convinced... I do not know anyone who claim that they have got enough money, even billionaires...


Nope... Most games here are abandoned for two main reasons :

• The dev, that was not experienced enough, made serious design mistakes and never find the courage to fix them : After a while the mistakes have more and more impact until they slow down development to the point of discouraging the dev to continue making the game...
• The dev never was able to find a proper balance between privacy and time spent on creating a game in his/her free time... he/she faces the choice to risk burn out with relationship with his/her relatives or abandon the developement of his/her game. Those games are mostly NSFW by definition, relatives may disagree and put pressure to give up...

Boring you said ? You always speak about your taste as if it was universal... Come on... To be fair and objective, one must be neutral...

An hour of content is for me 1-2 sec per line to read while watching the pics and that regardless whether I like it or not... The fact you do not like content made, does NOT deprive it being content that took time and effort to be made by the dev...

You always speak of milking but without proof, no one can follow you... Stop it... This dev never lied about the problems he is facing and he never deceived his subscribers about anything he does for the game...

For example, the remaster you do not like : no milking because he posted about his decision to work on it BEFORE starting it and he even advised those who disagree to suspend their subscription and are free to come back when he resumed working on new content. Adult discussion : the dev takes his own decision, subscribers take their...

Admit it : the "problem" was never the developers you claim to be milking their subscribers, it is just that Patreon is a business model that is not for you...

He cries milking in every thread, no need to entertain him with logical arguments. Imo he knows he's full of it and just tries to get a rise out of people. He has been on ignore for a long time for me.

 

[Red Wombat]

As an aspiring AVN dev there are several factors that I see affecting "productivity" of a single dev. Let's remove the learning of tools and trade from equation and assume theoretically I already spent a year on that, and then started working on a game. I don't know how many hours it takes to create 1h of content in these kind of projects, if someone has some average, feel free to tell me, I'd be curious. So I'm talking about working time here.

• The NSFW nature of these means many do it in private (I'd assume), me included. Won't be able to just whip out the project on any moment of inspiration / free time
• Available time between a full time job and family / partner / friends
  • If I were single I may reasonably have 10-15h a week (40-60h / month) to burn on the project besides day job
    • One must still have a life, exercise and all that jazz
  • I'm not single, so it reasonably would be 0-10h a week (20-40h / month), depending on how the week goes
  • I'd imagine it would be a fat round zero, if had also kids

Money is the only thing that can increase the output. Let's say I make 4k a month at work, and it's enough to pay the bills and live comfortably. Considering I'm able to reduce the hours of day job, and finding a solution to still do it in private (or "coming out" to the partner, which would be easier to do with a proven income stream), I'd need to make $1600 a month from Patreon (or whatever), to get another 15h a week (60h / month) for the project.

If I was super devoted and single, I could decide I don't need the same level of income and 3k a month is enough, if I get to put out my own project. That is STILL $1200 a month to add 15h a week (60h / month).

Let's also consider the career risk here. I'm working part time suddenly... to do what exactly? So it says in your CV you've been working part time for the last 2 years? Why? Did something interesting in that time? OR let's say the job I have allowed me to downscale to part time, but hey it ended at some point. Now I need to find a similar or better paying job that allows for part time. Don't know about other fields, but it's a rare case where someone needs a part time software dev. It's full time or no time mostly.

Or even more crazy. I went nuts and decided to quit my job and get by $1600 a month, while eating into my savings, all for this cause. It says here in your CV you took a 2 year sabbatical? Care to elaborate? Literally putting career on the line and going all in on an AVN, relying on gooners to support you

If you want and AVN with a devoted dev, that will give you lots of content for your gooning needs, without "milking" and productivity falls, do make sure they are unemployed to begin with and don't have a life

 

[HikBenAkk]

He cries milking in every thread, no need to entertain him with logical arguments. Imo he knows he's full of it and just tries to get a rise out of people. He has been on ignore for a long time for me.

Hi wildride69,

I know you are right, I just can't help it ^^!
* sigh *

Best regards.

 

[HeroHate]

Whats the point of ignore if you know what people are saying though?

 

[billtabas]

Anyone know any corruption or blackmail games like this?

 

[HikBenAkk]

Anyone know any corruption or blackmail games like this?

Hi billtabas,

Yes, here and here.

Best regards.

 

[kritoku]

HikBenAkk you are the man!

 

[Red Wombat]

Hi billtabas,

Yes, here and here.

Best regards.

Will definitely bookmark those for future.

BTW. You mentioned here:

"The games I play are about corruption of innocent female characters (by themselves or by others ), I find Vanilla games boring "

What ARE vanilla games? As someone new to the scene, maybe it's my own preferences that are unknowingly guiding my hand (and obviously following links of other people's posts under a corruption game will probably result in an "echo chamber" of tastes), but from my short stay in this "scene", corruption and for some reason NTR seem to be quite popular.

 

[HikBenAkk]

Will definitely bookmark those for future.

BTW. You mentioned here:

"The games I play are about corruption of innocent female characters (by themselves or by others ), I find Vanilla games boring "

What ARE vanilla games? As someone new to the scene, maybe it's my own preferences that are unknowingly guiding my hand (and obviously following links of other people's posts under a corruption game will probably result in an "echo chamber" of tastes), but from my short stay in this "scene", corruption and for some reason NTR seem to be quite popular.

Hi Red Wombat,
Vanilla refers to games that are about romance between characters... Characters do not show kinks like cheating, NTR or girls behaving in a slutty way (no corruption). There is neither violence nor prostitution in such games (if there is violence, it is not a kink).
Usually, vanilla games tell how MC will manage to become a couple with his Love interest or more other women if Harem tag is present as well.

Be careful : Vanilla is also used in another meaning for no porn games, it means original game without any mod or DLC...

Best regards.

 

[sikeeddd]

someone can post the patreon last pic

 

[lolo540]

I like the pace of this game, as well as the graphics. You can feel the slow but effective build-up of internal burn. I didn't like the scene at the beginning of season 2 with Bruce.
Can't wait for the sequel!

 

[Ilhamftr]

I can't play season two on joyplay, who can fixed the problem??

 

[Forix]

Man I cannot wait for the next episode... I hope we get it in June!
I'd love to see the latest patreons post but oh well!

 

[Pdr602]

I like the pace of this game, as well as the graphics. You can feel the slow but effective build-up of internal burn. I didn't like the scene at the beginning of season 2 with Bruce.
Can't wait for the sequel!

I'm with you regarding Bruce. Not a fan. Hopefully i can avoid / reject that route.

 

[xert13]

I'm with you regarding Bruce. Not a fan. Hopefully i can avoid / reject that route.

You supposedly can according to the Dev. I, for one, want to see what naughtiness he does with her...

 

[Pdr602]

You supposedly can according to the Dev. I, for one, want to see what naughtiness he does with her...

Choice can be a beautiful thing.