Inspired to build a VN/game... beginner questions about art and costs :)

[bzingo]

Hi all!

I've been inspired to create my first game/VN and I have some beginner questions I'm hoping the community here could help me answer

But first! To provide some context...

I'm thinking about creating something that's both game-like, and VN. I love the high quality VN games out there with their slow-burn buildup, and beautiful renders. But I also like the" gamey-er" games that give a feeling of autonomy and choice (although there's a lot of grinding out there as well). So, I'd like to try creating a game that features the best of VN, along with the freedom of playing a character in an interactive game world.

I feel capable of writing the story, designing any game mechanics, and providing artistic direction.... but I'd definitely want assistance with the art itself. Since this would be my first project, and I don't have a track record, I'd consider paying somebody up front for their artwork - rather than the typical Patreon share method (although I'm open to that as well).

I'm planning to use Ren'py, so depending on how much skill is required to build out my particular vision, I may also need technical assistance. We'll see.

So now, to my questions!

1. I'd like to start with some awesome girls. How would I go about getting some high quality, fully customized genesis 8 female models? And what's a reasonable expectation for cost?
2. I'll also need someone to build the scenes for import into Ren'py. This would be an ongoing job. Where should I advertise? And what's a reasonable expectation for cost?
3. On the back end, I want to stay organized while creating a branching story. Is there good 3rd party software for helping VN creators stay organized with different choice routes and dialogues? I found one tool called Chat Mapper (chatmapper.com). Has anyone used it?

Okay, that's it for now!

Thanks folks

 

[M$hot]

Firstly: Good luck!
On point 1, I think you can get them for free elsewhere on this site, if you want to pay for them, I do not know the price, sorry.

On point 2, you can advertise inRecruitment & Services with [R>Artist 2D]/[R>Artist 3D] (The R stands for Recruiting)
Cost varies so wildly I can't possibly say anything useful about it. It ranges from free to a lot per hour, some might settle for revenue share.

On point 3, I'm fairly sure you can annotate your code in Ren'Py (Like the CSS /* */ or QSP !). If you just annotate each choice as something like '**Branch3**' and at the very top of your Ren'Py file you have an overview of all your branches. That way if you find on a certain path that something isn't exactly right, you can CTRL+F search 'Branch3' and it will jump to all the headers for steps on Branch3 that you've added.
I have not used Chat mapper but I wouldn't be surprised if there's better methods than just annotating. Although if you ever want to collab at a later point and get someone else in, having your code annotated is super useful.

The great thing about Ren'Py is that there's a lot of experience on this forum, but more importantly, they have a whole help forum in English and a lot of tutorials to be found on doing certain things. All in English too. So while I don't know how hard it is to achieve your vision, I have to imagine that it's possible to do in Ren'Py.

 

[bzingo]

Firstly: Good luck!
On point 1, I think you can get them for free elsewhere on this site, if you want to pay for them, I do not know the price, sorry.

On point 2, you can advertise inRecruitment & Services with [R>Artist 2D]/[R>Artist 3D] (The R stands for Recruiting)
Cost varies so wildly I can't possibly say anything useful about it. It ranges from free to a lot per hour, some might settle for revenue share.

On point 3, I'm fairly sure you can annotate your code in Ren'Py (Like the CSS /* */ or QSP !). If you just annotate each choice as something like '**Branch3**' and at the very top of your Ren'Py file you have an overview of all your branches. That way if you find on a certain path that something isn't exactly right, you can CTRL+F search 'Branch3' and it will jump to all the headers for steps on Branch3 that you've added.
I have not used Chat mapper but I wouldn't be surprised if there's better methods than just annotating. Although if you ever want to collab at a later point and get someone else in, having your code annotated is super useful.

The great thing about Ren'Py is that there's a lot of experience on this forum, but more importantly, they have a whole help forum in English and a lot of tutorials to be found on doing certain things. All in English too. So while I don't know how hard it is to achieve your vision, I have to imagine that it's possible to do in Ren'Py.

Hey, thanks for your thoughts! You know, I've been doing a bunch of digging about this website and you're right, there are a lot of assets available. I've also been looking at Daz and there are plenty of models there if you're willing to pay for them. I guess between F95 and Daz I can find the models I want, and work with a 3D artist if I need further customization. And then we can build scenes

I'll probably post an add here to see what people are charging for their services.

And on point 3, I hear you. I suppose I can try both the 3rd party software and Ren'py annotations to see which works best.

 

[bzingo]

Update: I've posted an ad for a 3D artist to help customize models and create renders for my game. However, pricing seems to be all over the place (as the first response on this thread stated!). I will continue to learn by taking applications, but if anyone else wishes to comment here I would be appreciative!

Here are my main questions:

1) To begin I want to give an artist a couple dozen photographs of various girls I find on the internet and get a 3D models in return. What does it cost to do this? I don't need an exact replica, but something close enough that it captures her essence well.

2) Next, I want to use the 3D models in the various scenes in my game. So my understanding is that this is where renders come in. For pricing on renders I'm getting anywhere from $1-$20 per. That's a huge spread! Obviously from a cost-standpoint I'd rather pay somewhere near the lower range, but I'm also looking for high quality art and reliability in the working relationship. What is a reasonable cost expectation for high quality renders?

For a little context on this project, I'm expecting this to be part-time so the artist can work more or less when it's convenient for them (although reasonable turn-around times will be expected). I believe the total amount of renders will be over 500, but probably less than 1000 (it's my first game). I'd like to pay a monthly invoice.

3) Finally, I'm curious about animation costs. I realize this may be a lot more expensive then simply doing renders but I'd like to learn more to see if it's a good fit for my project. If anyone could teach me a little about what it takes to do them (and costs involved), that would be awesome!

Thanks again for reading

 

[M$hot]

1. To create a full human model from nowhere, add the bone structure, texturize it, flaw it up (entirely perfect skin looks fake, a hand without lines in it looks like someone hit the blur tool too hard) and then do the head (more specifically the face) that needs to be rigged for gentle differences (People don't go from stoic to wide smile without anything in between), I'd be surprised if you get anything that's proper class for less than 60 hours of work. If they need to create their own textures and you want full range of motion (twiggling the toe) you can probably add 20 hours. Even if people are willing to work for $10/h you're looking at an $800 model. And i don't think you're getting top shelve at $10/h. I personally used to charge $165/h but with an hour cap ('I think I can do it in 75, if it takes more, I eat the additional hours until it's perfect' deal) so again you're dealing with a giant range. I think a reasonable rate to expect is $30/h at the bottom for a fully detailed, flawlessly rigged model. Then we're talking $2400 PER MODEL.

2. Again, here I think you're looking at $30/h. If they can produce 3 renders an hour you're effectively paying $10 per. If however a scene plays in the same spot, same background and there's only some facial/bodylanguage changes and they have a decent rig they might be able to do 30 in that hour, putting you at effectively $1 per. If they have a small renderfarm it might get a little quicker, but due to the extra hardware they're running, not cheaper. If you aren't super ambitious and the person you hire sort of knows what they are doing, I think and average rate of 6-10 renders an hour should be doable. Assuming 600 for ease of math, then it would take them 60-100 hours. Let's take the median, 80 hours. @ $30/h again, $2400.

3. Animation can be done super janky (keyframe the starting position and choose the end position, then let the program fill in the other 28 frames in between and then loop it, think of the older LOP games) or super detailed with guided sway of the hair, movement of the breasts, inhalation and exhalation, sweat etc. The former method probably takes 32 minutes (2 to key it up, 30 to render it) per 1 second of animation. The latter can take as long as 7-12 minutes per frame to set up perfectly and render (3 1/2 to 6 hours per 1 second of animation) Obviously, these are the extremes and there's also just people that do animations with like 4 keys a second, that can probably be done in 40-45 minutes to key and render. For the sake of math, let's assume 1 hour per second of footage. 2 looped seconds per pose, 4 poses per scene (BJ/Muffdiving, missionary, doggy, orgasm) and you're talking $240 per sexscene, you have 3 scenes, that's $720.

TL;DR: If you're paying $30/h you will end up paying $10,320 for 344 hours of work. You'd have 3 fantastic models that are fully rigged, 600 renders and 3 sex scenes consisting of 4 poses each for that money. Some people can't do all 3, those that can might not settle for $30/h and quite frankly, if you want scenes with a lot of illumination, realistic backdrops, reflections, shadows etc. you might be looking at double or triple the render time too.

Final answer:
$10,320 - Best case scenario
$21,200 - Realistic estimate*
$83,160 - Worst case scenario**

*$50/h and renders take twice as long
**$165/h and renders require 3x as long

The thing is, there's no union or any kind of guidelines, the best artist might be a beginner that doesn't realize how good he is yet, charging you $12 an hour. Some people might overestimate themselves because their loving uncle hired them to build a website for them at $80 an hour. Some people are priced fairly but just very high because quality of work/trackrecord or willing to touch a niche that others won't. (You can't even imagine a number high enough to pay me to render an animated scat scene for example).

Ask for their portfolio, seriously question them if they charge less than $25/h or more than $50/h. There are outliers on both ends of that spectrum that may very well be worth it, but in my experience, you're looking at a bill in the area of $20,000.

Goddamn this message grew long, my bad. Hope it helped. If not, I'm very sorry, I tried to be as thorough and fair as possible.

Sorry for the edit, had to add one thing. Mentioning the worst case that's calculated at the rate I used to charge is NOT me offering my services or solliciting your business. The only reason I added it is to make sure the other math added up, because when I came to the final bill for Worst case, that seemed about right, therefore the other math is probably also correct. Again though, I am NOT offering my services, it's only there to keep my math consistent.

 

[polywog]

 

[bzingo]

1. To create a full human model from nowhere, add the bone structure, texturize it, flaw it up (entirely perfect skin looks fake, a hand without lines in it looks like someone hit the blur tool too hard) and then do the head (more specifically the face) that needs to be rigged for gentle differences (People don't go from stoic to wide smile without anything in between), I'd be surprised if you get anything that's proper class for less than 60 hours of work. If they need to create their own textures and you want full range of motion (twiggling the toe) you can probably add 20 hours. Even if people are willing to work for $10/h you're looking at an $800 model. And i don't think you're getting top shelve at $10/h. I personally used to charge $165/h but with an hour cap ('I think I can do it in 75, if it takes more, I eat the additional hours until it's perfect' deal) so again you're dealing with a giant range. I think a reasonable rate to expect is $30/h at the bottom for a fully detailed, flawlessly rigged model. Then we're talking $2400 PER MODEL.

2. Again, here I think you're looking at $30/h. If they can produce 3 renders an hour you're effectively paying $10 per. If however a scene plays in the same spot, same background and there's only some facial/bodylanguage changes and they have a decent rig they might be able to do 30 in that hour, putting you at effectively $1 per. If they have a small renderfarm it might get a little quicker, but due to the extra hardware they're running, not cheaper. If you aren't super ambitious and the person you hire sort of knows what they are doing, I think and average rate of 6-10 renders an hour should be doable. Assuming 600 for ease of math, then it would take them 60-100 hours. Let's take the median, 80 hours. @ $30/h again, $2400.

3. Animation can be done super janky (keyframe the starting position and choose the end position, then let the program fill in the other 28 frames in between and then loop it, think of the older LOP games) or super detailed with guided sway of the hair, movement of the breasts, inhalation and exhalation, sweat etc. The former method probably takes 32 minutes (2 to key it up, 30 to render it) per 1 second of animation. The latter can take as long as 7-12 minutes per frame to set up perfectly and render (3 1/2 to 6 hours per 1 second of animation) Obviously, these are the extremes and there's also just people that do animations with like 4 keys a second, that can probably be done in 40-45 minutes to key and render. For the sake of math, let's assume 1 hour per second of footage. 2 looped seconds per pose, 4 poses per scene (BJ/Muffdiving, missionary, doggy, orgasm) and you're talking $240 per sexscene, you have 3 scenes, that's $720.

TL;DR: If you're paying $30/h you will end up paying $10,320 for 344 hours of work. You'd have 3 fantastic models that are fully rigged, 600 renders and 3 sex scenes consisting of 4 poses each for that money. Some people can't do all 3, those that can might not settle for $30/h and quite frankly, if you want scenes with a lot of illumination, realistic backdrops, reflections, shadows etc. you might be looking at double or triple the render time too.

Final answer:
$10,320 - Best case scenario
$21,200 - Realistic estimate*
$83,160 - Worst case scenario**

*$50/h and renders take twice as long
**$165/h and renders require 3x as long

The thing is, there's no union or any kind of guidelines, the best artist might be a beginner that doesn't realize how good he is yet, charging you $12 an hour. Some people might overestimate themselves because their loving uncle hired them to build a website for them at $80 an hour. Some people are priced fairly but just very high because quality of work/trackrecord or willing to touch a niche that others won't. (You can't even imagine a number high enough to pay me to render an animated scat scene for example).

Ask for their portfolio, seriously question them if they charge less than $25/h or more than $50/h. There are outliers on both ends of that spectrum that may very well be worth it, but in my experience, you're looking at a bill in the area of $20,000.

Goddamn this message grew long, my bad. Hope it helped. If not, I'm very sorry, I tried to be as thorough and fair as possible.

Sorry for the edit, had to add one thing. Mentioning the worst case that's calculated at the rate I used to charge is NOT me offering my services or solliciting your business. The only reason I added it is to make sure the other math added up, because when I came to the final bill for Worst case, that seemed about right, therefore the other math is probably also correct. Again though, I am NOT offering my services, it's only there to keep my math consistent.

Dude, that was awesome. Thank you for taking the time