Is the NTR avoidable?

[Segnbora]

Sorry, I just wanted to be the first to ask that before a game actually exists and this seemed the only guaranteed way.

(Also, an F95-funding idea: if there was some sort of betting pool in which readers could wager on how many posts would appear between the core game announcement and the first appearance of this question, there'd be a lot of money to be made.)

 

[Ramen-]

I like the idea a thread where you can ask if a game contains it or if the dev said it will so in the future, without spamming the actual game thread, I bet it will not work though.

 

[clarc]

the NTR events are only for the starting 3 heroine I think. If you just make your own waifu it will all be fine.

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[JustASlayerPassing]

What game are you guys talking about?

 

[Segnbora]

No actual game, but all of the game threads.

 

[Deleted member 1706148]

the NTR events are only for the starting 3 heroine I think. If you just make your own waifu it will all be fine.

What are u talking about bro? xD

 

[215303j]

I guess that an NTR purist would answer: if the NTR is avoidable, it's not NTR.

The betting idea seems like a winner!
Another bet would be: I bet there are more posts that ask for a walkthrough than there are that ask for a savegame.

 

[khumak]

I guess that an NTR purist would answer: if the NTR is avoidable, it's not NTR.

The betting idea seems like a winner!
Another bet would be: I bet there are more posts that ask for a walkthrough than there are that ask for a savegame.

I'd be curious to know how many NTR fans agree with you on that. To me you're voluntarily giving up half of your potential fan base if the NTR is unavoidable. I'm not an NTR fan but I will still play games with NTR in it. When I walk away is if it's unavoidable.

When it comes to posts about a walkthrough or savegame, IMO if you get constant requests for either of those it usually means that either you're not putting enough context in the game for players to make an informed choice, or it's too grindy for most people. I might not be able to get my preferred ending on the 1st playthrough without a walkthrough, but I should be able to on the 2nd playthrough or the difficulty is off. Any sort of scoring system where you need a "perfect score" to get the best scenes is a recipe for frustration unless every choice is just blatantly obvious. If your scoring system is meant to be some sort of difficulty feature then put some wiggle room in there so people can make a few mistakes and still get the scene they want without needing a walkthrough.

For games with a significant amount of grinding, I think there are ways to do it right and ways to do it wrong. The right way would be to have some sort of event series with progressively more and more interesting scenes so I'm being rewarded for each scene with something I haven't seen before. If I'm repeating identical scenes over and over to reach the trigger for the scene I really want then you're just wasting my time for no reason.

 

[Deleted member 1706148]

When it comes to posts about a walkthrough or savegame, IMO if you get constant requests for either of those it usually means that either you're not putting enough context in the game for players to make an informed choice, or it's too grindy for most people. I might not be able to get my preferred ending on the 1st playthrough without a walkthrough, but I should be able to on the 2nd playthrough or the difficulty is off. Any sort of scoring system where you need a "perfect score" to get the best scenes is a recipe for frustration unless every choice is just blatantly obvious. If your scoring system is meant to be some sort of difficulty feature then put some wiggle room in there so people can make a few mistakes and still get the scene they want without needing a walkthrough.

For games with a significant amount of grinding, I think there are ways to do it right and ways to do it wrong. The right way would be to have some sort of event series with progressively more and more interesting scenes so I'm being rewarded for each scene with something I haven't seen before. If I'm repeating identical scenes over and over to reach the trigger for the scene I really want then you're just wasting my time for no reason.

I always go blind whenever i play a new game and only look for a walkthrough after i finish the game (if i missed something) or when i am stuck & dunno what else to do no matter how hard i think. As for people asking for complete save file's just being lazy... is it because of the grind part of the game? i mean whats the point of playing if your gonna ask for some else's progress? same with those who ask for cheat codes. All this just my opinion. Maybe u can enlighten me & help me understand better why people ask for those cause i might be missing something here...

 

[khumak]

I always go blind whenever i play a new game and only look for a walkthrough after i finish the game (if i missed something) or when i am stuck & dunno what else to do no matter how hard i think. As for people asking for complete save file's just being lazy... is it because of the grind part of the game? i mean whats the point of playing if your gonna ask for some else's progress? same with those who ask for cheat codes. All this just my opinion. Maybe u can enlighten me & help me understand better why people ask for those cause i might be missing something here...

I tend to be the type who will just grind it out rather than ask for a savegame, but if you want an example, look at a game like Big Brother. You can play that game for 12+ hours grinding through the same scenes over and over again and probably still not have access to the end game scenes that you want to see. A lot of times you don't even know what the triggers are so you have no idea which scenes you have to repeat 10+ times and which ones don't matter at all.

In a sandbox type game like that, a lot of people want a save game where someone else did those 12+ hours of grinding for them, the triggers for all of the endgame content are all satisfied, and they can just replay the "endgame" content. Yes, they miss part of the story that is not repeatable, but are you willing to grind for 12+ hours to see that?

 

[Ragnar]

It has incest?

 

[215303j]

I'd be curious to know how many NTR fans agree with you on that. To me you're voluntarily giving up half of your potential fan base if the NTR is unavoidable. I'm not an NTR fan but I will still play games with NTR in it. When I walk away is if it's unavoidable.

For me the same: I also play games with NTR as long as it's avoidable.
I also occassionally play games which involve swinging / sharing, but it depends on the context.

But what I see a lot of NTR fans complain about, is that if the MC is ok with it, it's not NTR, as NTR is supposed to trigger feelings of jealousy and probably also shame and humilation. If the NTR is avoidable, but the player chooses not to avoid it, it must be desired and therefore not induce jealousy to the level unavoidable NTR does.

To me it also depends on the story context. Scenario's where some NPC is fucking the mom / MILF are easier for me than scenarios involving the little virgin sister. E.g. Big Brother I don't consider NTR at all since Eric never got it on with Lisa. Eric is mom's boyfriend so of course they fuck and Kira is just a whore who fuck people for money, so it's pointless to get jealous. Wives / girlfriends depend on the character: innocent and sweet = no, experienced and adventurous = maybe.

 

[khumak]

For me the same: I also play games with NTR as long as it's avoidable.
I also occassionally play games which involve swinging / sharing, but it depends on the context.

But what I see a lot of NTR fans complain about, is that if the MC is ok with it, it's not NTR, as NTR is supposed to trigger feelings of jealousy and probably also shame and humilation. If the NTR is avoidable, but the player chooses not to avoid it, it must be desired and therefore not induce jealousy to the level unavoidable NTR does.

To me it also depends on the story context. Scenario's where some NPC is fucking the mom / MILF are easier for me than scenarios involving the little virgin sister. E.g. Big Brother I don't consider NTR at all since Eric never got it on with Lisa. Eric is mom's boyfriend so of course they fuck and Kira is just a whore who fuck people for money, so it's pointless to get jealous. Wives / girlfriends depend on the character: innocent and sweet = no, experienced and adventurous = maybe.

Yeah to me some people have an unreasonable expectation for what qualifies as NTR. To me it only counts if both MC AND the girl in question both consider themselves to be in a relationship. If there are scenes showing your mom banging your dad or even some random dude, it's not NTR unless she considers you her boyfriend. MC might lust after her but unless she feels the same, it doesn't count yet. Same thing for random chicks banging whoever they want.

MC isn't the only person allowed to have sex. If MC sees a girl, she's not "his" until she considers him to be "hers". And just being fuck buddies doesn't necessarily qualify either to me. Do they actually love each other or are they just a booty call? If they're just a booty call then they can fuck whoever they want. Same type of deal if the sister brings a boyfriend home and bangs him. That's not NTR whether MC likes him or not.

As far as Big Brother goes my take on it is similar to yours, although since we don't actually get to see what happens when Lisa does "Sex Ed" with mom and Eric, we don't really know how far that went. Same for the situation where Eric punishes Alice in a separate room. She comes out blushing so for all we know he might have fucked her but we don't get to see it. If BB had shown Eric actually fucking Lisa and/or Alice then I could see there being some room for annoyance since I think it's expected that most people are going to dislike Eric. Whether it's NTR or not most people are going to want to prevent him from fucking your sisters.

As for Mom, I agree, Eric's her boyfriend so that's not NTR whether MC likes it or not. I agree about Kira as well. She may or may not have fucked Max by the point where Eric has his way with her but I think it's pretty clear that Kira never considers Max her boyfriend. He's a fuckbuddy at best. In fact she's a porn star. So I really can't see anyone demanding that Kira be "faithful".

 

[Deleted member 1706148]

I tend to be the type who will just grind it out rather than ask for a savegame, but if you want an example, look at a game like Big Brother. You can play that game for 12+ hours grinding through the same scenes over and over again and probably still not have access to the end game scenes that you want to see. A lot of times you don't even know what the triggers are so you have no idea which scenes you have to repeat 10+ times and which ones don't matter at all.

In a sandbox type game like that, a lot of people want a save game where someone else did those 12+ hours of grinding for them, the triggers for all of the endgame content are all satisfied, and they can just replay the "endgame" content. Yes, they miss part of the story that is not repeatable, but are you willing to grind for 12+ hours to see that?

I see... point taken. well i love grinding that's why i question others but i guess it all goes down to whether the game is worth investing time & effort for such games. Thanks for sharing your insight bro

 

[Vrijgeest]

NTR is either cheating or rape. Why do all the machos get so upset about it?

 

[Segnbora]

The above discussion is why I often wish this site would do away with NTR as a tag and a genre. Make people either choose from among the set of English words describing non-monogamous or extra-whatever relationships and let people who want to indicate the presence of actual NTR use the correct Japanese word(s) to describe the specific type(s) found in the game.

For too many people NTR has just become a synonym for cheating. There's even a vocal minority who view any sex other than with the player character as NTR, which is a ludicrous deformation of the concept.

I guess that an NTR purist would answer: if the NTR is avoidable, it's not NTR.

I'd be curious to know how many NTR fans agree with you on that. To me you're voluntarily giving up half of your potential fan base if the NTR is unavoidable.

A true NTR enthusiast would, if it's more like a story or a kinetic novel, obviously prefer that it not be avoidable, otherwise what would be the point? I think the subset of potential players that enthusiastically enjoys the element of risk — whether it's to keep your designated lust object for yourself or to let others have their way with them, and just what the right choices to make either happen are (basically The Tyrant model) — is largely a different set of people.

I say this in part because it's reflected in the games themselves. It's very rare to see a game go all in on the potential for NTR and the possibility of avoiding it with equal enthusiasm; usually, it's clear by the intensity or logic of the story and the quantity of the sexual content that the dev has a strong preference for one or the other, which always makes me think that it would've been better to just make an NTR game even though it limits the potential audience.

An example of what I mean would be something like Because I Love Her. The NTR path (and there is actual netorare in this game, rather than just cheating/open relationship/swinging/whatever) is clearly the dev's preferred path, even though an alternative path exists. To me, trying to satisfy both camps is the sort of thing that unduly delays and even stops games, because there's an entire half of the game to fill with story and sexual content when it's obvious the dev's heart isn't in it.

 

[khumak]

I think the subset of potential players that enthusiastically enjoys the element of risk — whether it's to keep your designated lust object for yourself or to let others have their way with them, and just what the right choices to make either happen are (basically The Tyrant model) — is largely a different set of people.

I say this in part because it's reflected in the games themselves. It's very rare to see a game go all in on the potential for NTR and the possibility of avoiding it with equal enthusiasm; usually, it's clear by the intensity or logic of the story and the quantity of the sexual content that the dev has a strong preference for one or the other, which always makes me think that it would've been better to just make an NTR game even though it limits the potential audience.

An example of what I mean would be something like Because I Love Her. The NTR path (and there is actual netorare in this game, rather than just cheating/open relationship/swinging/whatever) is clearly the dev's preferred path, even though an alternative path exists. To me, trying to satisfy both camps is the sort of thing that unduly delays and even stops games, because there's an entire half of the game to fill with story and sexual content when it's obvious the dev's heart isn't in it.

You could be right and I could be in the minority, but for me NTR is like playing an RPG or fighting game in "hard" mode. If I don't play well enough I'm going to get my ass kicked and maybe die. Unavoidable NTR would be more along the lines of a Dark Souls game where the final boss is guaranteed to kill you no matter what at the end. So you're guaranteed to lose the game no matter what you do.

Fortunately that's not the case all the time so I'm happy to try a game that has NTR in the tag as long as it feels like I can affect the outcome and in fact knowing it's there enhances the game for me even if I never see the NTR scenes. Usually some part of the build up to the NTR still happens even when NTR is avoidable so you still have that tension involved with the interaction between the main character and the villain, that feeling of jealousy when he's making his advances, and then eventually the satisfaction of beating him.

If avoidable NTR is in the game then I know there's that threat there that if I don't play well enough, someone might take my girl from me. I also really enjoy the less commonly available option to turn the tables on them and take the bad guy's girl from them instead. For instance I loved the scene in Babysitter where you can fuck Silver's wife with him on the other side of the door knowing it's happening. I realize that for most NTR fans, they consider having their girl stolen from them to be the winning condition and that's fine but for me that's the losing condition. I will even occasionally "lose on purpose" to see that path if I like certain characters enough but I never find it as enjoyable as playing to win.

 

[Segnbora]

You could be right and I could be in the minority, but for me NTR is like playing an RPG or fighting game in "hard" mode. If I don't play well enough I'm going to get my ass kicked and maybe die.

Well, right. You're in that second group of players that I mentioned. You're not there for the NTR any more than you're in an RPG for the battle-grinding, you're there to overcome the challenge they present in order to get to the reward at the end. In your case, the threatening buildup to an NTR event is trudging through the forest beating up slimes and the first sex act with someone other than the MC is you losing to the stage boss. Your motivations and your interests are very different from someone who's playing the game specifically for the NTR.

Someone who's very much into NTR would probably be quite satisfied with a "final boss will kill you no matter what"-style ending. It goes right to the heart of the fetish and pushes it to a logical conclusion, after all.

I will even occasionally "lose on purpose" to see that path if I like certain characters enough but I never find it as enjoyable as playing to win.

Keeping the analogy going, to me this is exactly like deliberately losing to stage bosses to see the losing condition sex scene, as happens in so many Japanese RPGs. Except some of those games take it a step farther; in a game like Ideology in Friction, for example, the only way to open up the game's enormous amount of potential sexual content with the female MC is to have her lose a boss battle. Otherwise she stays (relatively) chaste until the end. It's not NTR becase there's no relationship being affected (at least not for a long while), but the mechanics of it operate exactly like forced NTR.

Personally, I don't really fit into any group. I want a quality story and quality gameplay. I never immerse, so the things that are supposed to bother me about NTR, cheating, whatever...just don't. If it's an erotic game I'll play it whatever way gets me the most and/or best scenes.

 

[DS23G]

But what I see a lot of NTR fans complain about, is that if the MC is ok with it, it's not NTR, as NTR is supposed to trigger feelings of jealousy and probably also shame and humilation.

I'm kinda tired of the what is and isn't NTR debates, but I'm really interested in where this idea of "it's all about triggering feelings of jealousy and humiliation in the viewer/player" thing comes from. Is it that everyone just started to blindy quote the vndb definition that some guy came up with some day? Because this focus on the cuck is not what the majority of japanese NTR tends to be about.

There are plenty of NTR doujin/manga where the guy getting cucked never finds out and most often is just a minor character.
Examples:

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Then there's Sanbun Kyodens (one of the guys who pretty much created the genre) stuff, who also tends to focus on the women, but often has a big reveal moment at the end of the story that includes the cuck POV.

One of the biggest problems is that netorare gets generally translated as cuckolding, since there's no real term for it in english. But the literal translation would be "(someone) getting taken from (someone else)", which doesn't specify who the story is about: The one getting taken? The one who gets taken from? Or the one who takes?
Since there's already a sub-genre for the "villain POV" (netori), it would probably make sense to put the other two in sub-categories too, even if it's just "cuck POV NTR" and "female POV NTR", to atleast create somewhat less confusion around the term.

 

[215303j]

I'm kinda tired of the what is and isn't NTR debates, but I'm really interested in where this idea of "it's all about triggering feelings of jealousy and humiliation in the viewer/player" thing comes from. Is it that everyone just started to blindy quote the vndb definition that some guy came up with some day? Because this focus on the cuck is not what the majority of japanese NTR tends to be about.

I didn't use the word cuckolding.
What you describe sounds more like cheating.

But anyway I think it will be a difficult discussion because Japanese culture is so fundamentally different from my own Northern / Western European culture that I doubt that I'll ever be able to fully understand it.

The concept of honour is fundamentally different. In ancient Germanic society, the penalty for adultry was death, for both males and females, by public execution. The Christians, while abolishing this death penalty, added everlasting damnation in Hell to that. I'm not an expert in Japanese culture but it seems people are more concerned about saving face, meaning that if a wife cheats, the husband's job is to let nobody know about it, unless he's powerful enough to make the problem go away in another way.

Nevertheless, the term NTR (in whatever definition the dev pleases) is quite firmly rooted now in Western porn...
It's not up to you or me what NTR means, but it is whatever the dev decides to write. It is then up to us to like the game / NTR or not.