Just wanted to float an idea out there and see what people thought

[User #1751331]

I just got done reading what happened to "Leaf on Fire" and why it came to an end. This isn't the first time a game has come to an end for similar reasons.

About the only way I can think of for developers to avoid being targeted by these people is to remain anonymous but that makes it a bit more difficult to make any money creating the game.
And yes I get I am talking on a forum that a lot of people don't bother supporting developers.

However, a site like this could protect the anonymity of the developers better than patreon and there is still a way to allow payments to those developers.
I wonder how many developers would continue production if they could receive digital currency via donations by posting a link to their wallet on the site.

 

[toolkitxx]

F95 is pretty smart in ways to not get involved with the bits and pieces law-wise that would get them shut down very quickly. Payments and storage of material (or better the lack of it) is one of them. I chose for exactly those setups to stick around as i know that F95 takes this pretty serious and professional. Asking for them to support any of the activities you suggest is like asking them to give up security for all others.

 

[User #1751331]

F95 is pretty smart in ways to not get involved with the bits and pieces law-wise that would get them shut down very quickly. Payments and storage of material (or better the lack of it) is one of them. I chose for exactly those setups to stick around as i know that F95 takes this pretty serious and professional. Asking for them to support any of the activities you suggest is like asking them to give up security for all others.

I'm not say they should process transactions or even store anything on the server.
Frankly, the images alone they store are more of a risk than what I am proposing.
It would be no more than a link as they have to the developers pages.
It is certainly far less of a risk than the links they provide to the actual games that are considered questionable. That's considering the rulings internationally that have even held search engines like google accountable for links to simply websites they don't like and content they considered stolen or of a nature they don't want available in various countries.

So if we looked on the scale of what they are doing for risk assessment this would be rather low compared to current activities.

That said, maybe what is needed is to play a game like the Japanese do when it comes to skirting gambling laws. They have a Pachinko parlor which rewards with items that the customers can then turn into a second store to redeem cash.

In this case create a sister site that lets the developers advertise anonymously and provide a wallet link. Then this site could simply link to it the same way it does with patreon. It's just an extra step and the risk really isn't any different but it does create a bit of a separation in which it would make it more legally a pain to come after.
Either way neither site would be processing any form of monetary transactions thus all the legal aspects with that would still not be an issue.

 

[215303j]

I just got done reading what happened to "Leaf on Fire" and why it came to an end. This isn't the first time a game has come to an end for similar reasons.

As I understand it, Leaf of Fire was abandoned due to copyright issues, right?

Although you can debate whether this is justified or not (and considering that a lawsuit is probably not worth it) I do think this is something different than Patreon banning content that, in itself, is legal (e.g. depicting incest) but morally questionable.

There is a difference because Nintendo can press legal action against companies who are using their characters for profit. I think this is fair, because it was their character and their idea in the first place.

Patreon on the other hand, can't press legal action against content that is legal but just morally questionable. Still it is their right to refuse any content that they don't like on their platform. With this I basically also agree. I wouldn't want to be forced to display a 10x10m sign depicting ayatollah Khomeini on my front yard either.

True anonymity would be pretty difficult and only worthwhile for outright illlegal content (e.g. CP).
Personally I consider parody or "fan fiction" material not worth the hassle.

Morally questionable content does not need anonymity, it just needs a platform that is more relaxed regarding this than Patreon. And if this pressure comes from Paypal / credit card companies, then we need a solution for that as well. I think it's not the job of a "bank" to decide where *I* want to spend MY money on. I think this is something that deserves some moral outcry on it's own. Paypal can be a useful tool but it should not overstep their boundaries.

 

[User #1751331]

As I understand it, Leaf of Fire was abandoned due to copyright issues, right?

Although you can debate whether this is justified or not (and considering that a lawsuit is probably not worth it) I do think this is something different than Patreon banning content that, in itself, is legal (e.g. depicting incest) but morally questionable.

There is a difference because Nintendo can press legal action against companies who are using their characters for profit. I think this is fair, because it was their character and their idea in the first place.

Patreon on the other hand, can't press legal action against content that is legal but just morally questionable. Still it is their right to refuse any content that they don't like on their platform. With this I basically also agree. I wouldn't want to be forced to display a 10x10m sign depicting ayatollah Khomeini on my front yard either.

True anonymity would be pretty difficult and only worthwhile for outright illlegal content (e.g. CP).
Personally I consider parody or "fan fiction" material not worth the hassle.

Morally questionable content does not need anonymity, it just needs a platform that is more relaxed regarding this than Patreon. And if this pressure comes from Paypal / credit card companies, then we need a solution for that as well. I think it's not the job of a "bank" to decide where *I* want to spend MY money on. I think this is something that deserves some moral outcry on it's own. Paypal can be a useful tool but it should not overstep their boundaries.

Your are missing the point. Nitendo could bring a lawsuit if they can't identify the party involved. They couldn't collect either even if they could get some hack judge to allow a suit against unknown party.

The point is to actually give them ability to hide behind real anonymity.

You can't easily trace a bitcoin transaction. It would probably bankrupt Nitendo just trying to do it.

The point is you can make the issue so insurmountable for Nitendo they just won't bother.

 

[fidless]

It comes down to people's inability to change popular platforms. Youtube/Chutube, Twitch/Microsoft something, Patreon/Rusian patreon alternative something.
Creators need to eat to stay productive. Changing from my mentioned platforms you already lose 90%-95% of your audience. And it's mentally draining when you work hundreds of hours on a project which don't gather enough people/interest about to even discuss your passion.
Patreon is an unnecessary third party as well as your suggested f95 alternate option to pay creators. Everyone can make their own website with links to support their endaviors. The problem is only a tiny fraction of people will go the extra mile to support projects this way. Most will stick with what they're comfortable with which is Twitch/Youtube/Patreon.
So, unless you do it for free, you're forced to use Patreon because at least in my knowledge majority of creators dream to fully dedicate to their games and eating something healthy once in a while is nice.
And f95 won't risk to legal liability by shielding creators. Even if, let's say nintendo is wrong, this doesn't matter. All they have to do is to ruin someone financially by keeping them in court to win the case which they easily can do. That's why in most cases fair use won't help if a company decides to take action against a person.
Just to present your case and defend it in the first few rounds can cost thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars. Going against someone big as Nintendo will ruin you, that's why everyone submits to DMCA. Being so small, you can't win. I'm no expert in law, but from the few cases I'm following, costs are absurdly high. Hundreds of thousands just to defend your reputation against companies etc.

 

[User #1751331]

It comes down to people's inability to change popular platforms. Youtube/Chutube, Twitch/Microsoft something, Patreon/Rusian patreon alternative something.
Creators need to eat to stay productive. Changing from my mentioned platforms you already lose 90%-95% of your audience. And it's mentally draining when you work hundreds of hours on a project which don't gather enough people/interest about to even discuss your passion.
Patreon is an unnecessary third party as well as your suggested f95 alternate option to pay creators. Everyone can make their own website with links to support their endaviors. The problem is only a tiny fraction of people will go the extra mile to support projects this way. Most will stick with what they're comfortable with which is Twitch/Youtube/Patreon.
So, unless you do it for free, you're forced to use Patreon because at least in my knowledge majority of creators dream to fully dedicate to their games and eating something healthy once in a while is nice.
And f95 won't risk to legal liability by shielding creators. Even if, let's say nintendo is wrong, this doesn't matter. All they have to do is to ruin someone financially by keeping them in court to win the case which they easily can do. That's why in most cases fair use won't help if a company decides to take action against a person.
Just to present your case and defend it in the first few rounds can cost thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars. Going against someone big as Nintendo will ruin you, that's why everyone submits to DMCA. Being so small, you can't win. I'm no expert in law, but from the few cases I'm following, costs are absurdly high. Hundreds of thousands just to defend your reputation against companies etc.

You are right to a large extent. Everyone can create their own site and put what they want on it. Sort of.
You would need to advertise your own site and get attention to it. By having multiple things in one area it creates sort of a shopping mall in which you get passer by traffic as well. In short it takes less effort to get the same number of views to use a site like patreon.

Then you have the issue of monetization. There are issues getting a merchant account with banks and CC companies regarding adult industry.

Running a forum over a decade ago I made sure my server didn't log IP or anything along that line. It kept no record other than the user name and hash coded password. In short I couldn't give a company information if I wanted to. My response to the one company that came to me over stuff on the site. First, I can't give you any information on the person because I specifically designed the system not to track people. Lets say you get a judge to hear this. Fine what then. I'm not going to modify my sites code without getting paid. Since it's my time I can charge what I want. I have no legal or ethical responsibility to do your policing. Your request is like asking a bar owner to monitor his customers conversations and then provide you information when it suits you. Pretend a judge tells me I have to well fine I change it and just shut the site down. I complied with the order by changing the code. But I took it off line. Or I not only change it but put a warning up letting everyone know what is going on.
Even if you get a gag order on me to keep quite I won't. If you some how get LE to take the site over I simply will notify everyone another way. If you are wondering it was a telco that didn't like the fact some of their security layers were being discussed and shared. They left me alone after that one message instead got smart and fixed their own problems.

Where sites get in trouble is when they already are storing that information. Such as a lot of servers store the ips of who logged in in a record. The most I keep an ip for is firewall issues dealing with attacks. If they want my attackers ips sure they can have them.

 

[215303j]

The point is you can make the issue so insurmountable for Nitendo they just won't bother.

I understand, but parody games are a rather small niche inside this entire "adult game market" which is a rather small niche in itself.
It's not worth the effort, both for the developer of such a marketplace and for the potential supporters.

This is different for stuff that is both more illegal and more highly sought after, such as weapons, drugs and CP.

All they have to do is to ruin someone financially by keeping them in court to win the case which they easily can do. That's why in most cases fair use won't help if a company decides to take action against a person.
Just to present your case and defend it in the first few rounds can cost thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars. Going against someone big as Nintendo will ruin you, that's why everyone submits to DMCA. Being so small, you can't win. I'm no expert in law, but from the few cases I'm following, costs are absurdly high. Hundreds of thousands just to defend your reputation against companies etc.

I think that depends a lot on the jurisdiction.
In most of western / northern Europe I don't believe this to be the case.
You are free to defend your own case and then you only need to pay process costs which are a couple of hundred euro's at most.

 

[User #1751331]

I understand, but parody games are a rather small niche inside this entire "adult game market" which is a rather small niche in itself.
It's not worth the effort, both for the developer of such a marketplace and for the potential supporters.

This is different for stuff that is both more illegal and more highly sought after, such as weapons, drugs and CP.

I think that depends a lot on the jurisdiction.
In most of western / northern Europe I don't believe this to be the case.
You are free to defend your own case and then you only need to pay process costs which are a couple of hundred euro's at most.

There is also a term call Malicious prosecution. It's when some bring a suit against you that has no real validity.
In this case if someone came at F95 for a user posting they could go after them for malicious prosecution.
However the person creating the game couldn't.

But if what I talked about above was done. The company would never be able to find out who to sue. There wouldn't be any real way for them to pressure F95 into helping them to find out either. Which was the point of the post. Then these guys could create such content without the fear of being hounded.