Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.53.0] [Selebus]

[barglenarglezous]

Amusing interpretation that is also probably incorrect.

Nozomu fucked the world into existence. Does that mean Nozomu is both Sekai's father AND her husband?

 

[barglenarglezous]

We can revisit this if Nodoka ever intentionally Bluejays in front of someone else. I get that perhaps that scene was injected into the game for cheap shock value and might not have been very well thought out, but you don't do that shit right in front of someone else unless something is either deeply, horrifyingly wrong with you, or that person fucked you up in some unimaginably horrible way.

Bit of column A and a bit of column B.

 

[alex2011]

I don't majorly disagree with anything you said, just my point was more about what Sel's purpose of having such a normal girl in the cast was. It really couldn't /just/ be to fill out a checklist or balance things out. She's a main girl, she's going to have some kind of arc, so I was just guessing where he intended to go with it.

We're probably going to be witness to the game world breaking her down as opposed to the others who already have something going on, that could very well be part of her purpose.

 

[Deleted member 2223621]

(And before you say Makoto - she's the most malevolent and self-centered human character in the game. Fight me.)

We can revisit this if Nodoka ever intentionally Bluejays in front of someone else. I get that perhaps that scene was injected into the game for cheap shock value and might not have been very well thought out, but you don't do that shit right in front of someone else unless something is either deeply, horrifyingly wrong with you, or that person fucked you up in some unimaginably horrible way.

Ruined her forever for me.

I will cause you got makoto all wrong my guy. She was driven to prove how much she is not her mother or like her mother, she is ashamed for being involved in anyway with the sex industry, to the point she is out right ashamed of her sexuality. this is why she is not 'normal'. she is not malevolent or self centered, she does things for other people all the time, she plans parties, she basically teaches the class, she organizes every beach event, she covers for other peoples mistakes so they dont get left behind or kicked out of school though it pisses her off for having to do it in the first place she still does it. that is the act of a selfless person that is pissed they have to be the responsible one cause no one else will even try. If you wanted to get into the dark part of makoto; she tried to off herself in front of sensei after she lost a massive part of her identity and embraced her sexuality( which is why i think it was decently thought out), where she suddenly started to identify with her mother in what she saw as the worst way possible whom she both loathes and loves(though i think she hates her way more ). Then you have the news about her dad, in which everything that made makoto who she was, before sensei started banging her, was built around her idolized version of her father. Makoto is probably the second best written girl IMO after Yumi because everything about her and her personality can easily be explained by everything in her life.

edit: she blue jayed in front of sensei cause it was him that made her lose her identity or self image. it was sensei that made her into a whore in her eyes, a whore just like her whore mother. (not my opinion of maki)

 

[derekthered56]

We can revisit this if Nodoka ever intentionally Bluejays in front of someone else. I get that perhaps that scene was injected into the game for cheap shock value and might not have been very well thought out, but you don't do that shit right in front of someone else unless something is either deeply, horrifyingly wrong with you, or that person fucked you up in some unimaginably horrible way.

Ruined her forever for me.

Ditto what barglenarglezous said. It was a terrible thing to do but I'd hardly call a suicidally depressed teenager "malevolent". Especially compared to Kirin and Nodoka who have planned out blackmail and rape plots in advance.

 

[vehemental]

I will cause you got makoto all wrong my guy. She was driven to prove how much she is not her mother or like her mother, she is ashamed for being involved in anyway with the sex industry, to the point she is out right ashamed of her sexuality. this is why she is not 'normal'. she is not malevolent or self centered, she does things for other people all the time, she plans parties, she basically teaches the class, she organizes every beach event, she covers for other peoples mistakes so they dont get left behind or kicked out of school though it pisses her off for having to do it in the first place she still does it. that is the act of a selfless person that is pissed they have to be the responsible one cause no one else will even try. If you wanted to get into the dark part of makoto; she tried to off herself in front of sensei after she lost a massive part of her identity and embraced her sexuality( which is why i think it was decently thought out), where she suddenly started to identify with her mother in what she saw as the worst way possible whom she both loathes and loves. Then you have the news about her dad, in which everything that made makoto who she was, before sensei started banging her, was built around her idolized version of her father. Makoto is probably the second best written girl IMO after Yumi because everything about her and her personality can easily be explained by everything in her life.

edit: she blue jayed in front of sensei cause it was him that made her lose her identity or self image. it was sensei that made her into a whore in her eyes, a whore just like her whore mother. (not my opinion of maki)

What you refer to as selfless behavior could potentially be interpreted as a

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- this being a psychological horror after all. I've never really known what level of analysis to use on this game so I don't know if this is valid or not, but I've met truly selfless people, and they're not the type to tell someone repeatedly to "look at them more" or eagerly compete with their best friend over something they both wanted. "Selfless" better describes Futaba IMO which might be why it's also the name of one of her events

I'm also not talking whether Bluejay was justified or not, I'm talking how she did it. I don't normally get into grading other people's trauma (even when they're fictional characters) but once you drag other people into it and inflict your demons upon them, it becomes fair game in my mind. So I'm sorry, but what Sensei "did" to her - repeatedly spurning her advances to the point SHE "basically blackmailed" HIM into finally fucking her - does not justify her Bluejaying in front of him.

Telling him to close his eyes was a pathetic attempt at distancing her actions from the long-term consequences he would (presumably, from her perspective) carry with him for the rest of his life. The sound a body makes as dozens of bones crunch on concrete below and the sight afterwards is a lot more visceral and traumatizing than simply seeing someone jump off of a high place.

All she had to do was ask Sensei if she could be alone for a while on the rooftop and do it after he left and I'd agree more with everything you said.

Again - I don't have enough faith in Selly to say for sure whether this interpretation was intended, or whether the scene was just poorly written and most other people just took it at face value, so ultimately it can only be decided in the future if she continues to develop in the way I described or in the way you described.

 

[Dragon59]

Question time, cause i'm bored.

Who do you think is the most well written character? Not potentially counting Akira, and not who you necessarily like or hate the most, just the one with the most depth and complexity in their characterisation.

No answer time, because I'm not bored and it is not my job to keep you enrtertained.

 

[Deleted member 2223621]

What you refer to as selfless behavior could potentially be interpreted as a

You must be registered to see the links

- this being a psychological horror after all. I've never really known what level of analysis to use on this game so I don't know if this is valid or not, but I've met truly selfless people, and they're not the type to tell someone repeatedly to "look at them more" or eagerly compete with their best friend over something they both wanted.

I'm also not talking whether Bluejay was justified or not, I'm talking how she did it. I don't normally get into grading other people's trauma (even when they're fictional characters) but once you drag other people into it and inflict your demons upon them, it becomes fair game in my mind. So I'm sorry, but what Sensei "did" to her - repeatedly spurning her advances to the point SHE "basically blackmailed" HIM into finally fucking her - does not justify her Bluejaying in front of him.

Telling him to close his eyes was a pathetic attempt at distancing her actions from the long-term consequences he would (presumably, from her perspective) carry with him for the rest of his life. The sound a body makes as dozens of bones crunch on concrete below is a lot more visceral and traumatizing then simply seeing someone jump off of a high place.

All she had to do was ask Sensei if she could be alone for a while on the rooftop and do it after he left and I'd agree more with everything you said.

Again - I don't have enough faith in Selly to say for sure whether this interpretation was intended, or whether the scene was just poorly written and most other people just took it at face value, so ultimately it can only be decided in the future if she continues to develop in the way I described or in the way you described.

meh you are free to your interpretation of Makoto, but i think there was more than enough evidence to support the argument I made towards her personality.
I also was not trying to justify the decision to bluejay, but provide an analytical look into why she would do it in front of sensei. from her perspective she didnt drag sensei into her suicide. sensei dragged her to suicide. also it was sensei that always 'advanced' onto her till her mental defenses broke down and she begged for it. this goes back to her hating her own sexuality. she deny's it till her willpower is forcibly broken like a dam and when she has post squirt clarity she hates herself and the person that did this to her is very clear. she wants to be desired for her mind and her capabilities and all she is... is a sexual play toy. the only time sensei ever even looks at her or cares is when he looks at her with lust, she no longer even values herself because her value was always determined by how others see her and she now sees herself as a useless whore because of sensei.
edit: those feelings from makoto are very clearly portrayed in the scene where sensei is sitting on her bed with her after her dad died. if you fail to get the correct scene i believe. stood out to me cause i fucked that up and had to redo the game for that one.

 

[ohfk2]

I'm stuck at a happy event, lots of options one is a laptop, it asks for a terminal number, i'm fairly sure i need it to progress. Anyone know what it is?

TIA

 

[vehemental]

also it was sensei that always 'advanced' onto her till her mental defenses broke down and she begged for it. this goes back to her hating her own sexuality. she deny's it till her willpower is forcibly broken like a dam and when she has post squirt clarity she hates herself and the person that did this to her is very clear.

Is this really a fair characterization of their dynamic, or would this be her shoveling the blame for the traits of hers she might not enjoy onto someone else? Where is it written that she denies it so many times? I know she begged for it more than once - which didn't do it. She had to "basically blackmail" him:

s "So, how does it feel not being a virgin anymore? Any different?"
mak "Not as different as I thought it would feel. I’m happy we went through with it, though."
s "You mean how you basically blackmailed me into deflowering you while you were drunk?"

mak "I did what I had to do, Sensei. "
mak "If I left it up to you, you’d have probably held off until I was in college. I don’t have that kind of time."
s "You definitely do have that kind of time, though."

That doesn't sound like either the victim in this scenario (not to say Sensei is, lol) or someone who hates herself after the fact in the way that you describe.

she wants to be desired for her mind and her capabilities and all she is... is a sexual play toy. the only time sensei ever even looks at her or cares is when he looks at her with lust, she no longer even values herself because her value was always determined by how others see her and she now sees herself as a useless whore because of sensei.

Sure, but this would be her creation. Like her or not, the entire rest of the class looks up to her as the real teacher in the room. Wakana would kill to have her in her class. All of their opinions are only worthless in this matter because she's so self-centered that she can only think about the thing she wants but isn't getting - Sensei's undivided attention. Taking care of everyone is a means to get that attention, not an end in itself, which is why she gets pissed off every time she has to do more. Wouldn't someone who was in it for love of the game go the extra mile without complaint?

---

I'm going to augment your argument by bringing up the denpa aspect. People of both sexes here are obviously not fully themselves, and are clearly being manipulated by outside forces whose motives include creating the ultimate harem sim we don't fully understand yet. Look no further than girls lining up for Sensei despite him having the rizz and personality of a wet rock (I almost said noodle, but you know who that would actually be appealing to). So her newfound sexuality isn't all her own, which would lend credence to her potential hatred of it.

I think it's pretty clear the denpa waves are also increasing social isolation between every character but Sensei so he can more effectively divide and conquer, which may be partly why Rintoha blew up so easily. It's a pretty severe bump to have impacted a mother/daughter relationship so drastically this early in the process, but maybe it's played a part.

I mean let's face it, Maki isn't exactly the most horrible mom in the universe. Yeah she's absent-minded, aggressively sexually liberated, and might have dragged her daughter into the seedy world of selling porn, but she loves Makoto a lot. Deriding her as such a whore while deifying her dad, who as it turns out was the much bigger manwhore of the two, just sounds like another example of Makoto shoveling all of the bad traits of one person onto another because that's the one she picked to love.

---

It was never that she was malevolent to everyone, she just directs it towards Sensei and, as you say, her mom. And since she's performed these deranged mental gymnastics to the extent that she plans out in advance to Bluejay right in front of Sensei, is it not fair to characterize her as more malevolent than Nodoka and Kirin, who are just trying to get off and don't understand consent; Tsukasa, who's gigaspoiled and just likes to fire people; and Yumi, who just wanted to help Futaba stand up for herself the only twisted way she knew how and is now actively pursuing redemption?

Your argument boils down to her performing Simone Biles-level mental gymnastics to shift the blame onto other people for the problems of herself and the two people whose attention she's always craved. Maybe this was as intended - as I said, only the future will tell for sure.

But when we think of her as a covert narcissist, it's basically the same thing, just more refined and sinister in a way that Bluejay alone justifies. The mental gymnastics to center herself as the victim in every interaction is a hallmark of narcissism, and so is inflicting her trauma on other people - again, you don't Bluejay in front of someone unless you want them to remember it forever.

Maybe she was meant to be merely childish and petty, but normally high school age characters in anime are written with way more depth and character than actual high schoolers normally have, and at least one of the characters in the class might be a literal 5,000 year-old wizard because of the time loops, so I'm loath to so easily trivialize her behavior.

But again, it's not as if I have the full faith in the writing quality sufficient to guarantee this was intended.

What the fuck is wrong with me for writing all this shit? Go the fuck to sleep you fucking idiot, jesus everloving christ almighty, no one's going to fucking read it anyway you absolute wanker
Also never combine weed with ADHD meds. This is the result.

 

[Bingoogus]

What the fuck is wrong with me for writing all this shit? Go the fuck to sleep you fucking idiot, jesus everloving christ almighty, no one's going to fucking read it anyway you absolute wanker
Also never combine weed with ADHD meds. This is the result.

I read it!

 

[Deleted member 2223621]

Is this really a fair characterization of their dynamic, or would this be her shoveling the blame for the traits of hers she might not enjoy onto someone else? Where is it written that she denies it so many times? I know she begged for it more than once - which didn't do it. She had to "basically blackmail" him:

I mean every scene with makoto before the halloween event always started off with her going "no this is a bad idea we shouldn't do this" to her panting and asking for "more" to feeling like shit afterward. till it comes to a head and she gives up completely on Halloween from the start after basically being edged for several months. so yeah its a very fair one for the start of their dynamic you keep trying to point at the later developments to ignore the initial ones. the blackmail the ranting, the suicide, the bedroom fuck the pain away scene all happened after she broke, not before. there is a cause and effect relationship to this. was she a fragile little snowflake to break so easily at the start... yeah probably

That doesn't sound like either the victim in this scenario (not to say Sensei is, lol) or someone who hates herself after the fact in the way that you describe.

Sure, but this would be her creation. Like her or not, the entire rest of the class looks up to her as the real teacher in the room. Wakana would kill to have her in her class. All of their opinions are only worthless in this matter because she's so self-centered that she can only think about the thing she wants but isn't getting - Sensei's undivided attention. Taking care of everyone is a means to get that attention, not an end in itself, which is why she gets pissed off every time she has to do more. Wouldn't someone who was in it for love of the game go the extra mile without complaint?

you can clearly tell based on context she already decided to suicide at this point before fucking him" I don’t have that kind of time. " she fucked him like that because she already broke or realized she was breaking and decided to just give up and then die.

I'm going to augment your argument by bringing up the denpa aspect.

fair, but that feels more like a cop out, but i can respect it if thats where yo want to end it.

It was never that she was malevolent to everyone, she just directs it towards Sensei and, as you say, her mom. And since she's performed these deranged mental gymnastics to the extent that she plans out in advance to Bluejay right in front of Sensei, is it not fair to characterize her as more malevolent than Nodoka and Kirin, who are just trying to get off and don't understand consent; Tsukasa, who's gigaspoiled and just likes to fire people; and Yumi, who just wanted to help Futaba stand up for herself the only twisted way she knew how and is now actively pursuing redemption?

Your argument boils down to her performing Simone Biles-level mental gymnastics to shift the blame onto other people for the problems of herself and the two people whose attention she's always craved. Maybe this was as intended - as I said, only the future will tell for sure.

But when we think of her as a covert narcissist, it's basically the same thing, just more refined and sinister in a way that Bluejay alone justifies. The mental gymnastics to center herself as the victim in every interaction is a hallmark of narcissism, and so is inflicting her trauma on other people - again, you don't Bluejay in front of someone unless you want them to remember it forever.

Maybe she was meant to be merely childish and petty, but normally high school age characters in anime are written with way more depth and character than actual high schoolers normally have, and at least one of the characters in the class might be a literal 5,000 year-old wizard because of the time loops, so I'm loath to so easily trivialize her behavior.

But again, it's not as if I have the full faith in the writing quality sufficient to guarantee this was intended.

well i didnt say she didn't have narcissstic tendencies, but rather that she has deeply traumitized herself over her own sexual urges and externally blamed everyone else that made her feel that way... much in the same way Christians hated on elvis in the 1950s for no good reason. what i'm saying is her pinpoint avoidance and transference of her own guilt is understandable on a human level.

What the fuck is wrong with me for writing all this shit? Go the fuck to sleep you fucking idiot, jesus everloving christ almighty, no one's going to fucking read it anyway you absolute wanker
Also never combine weed with ADHD meds. This is the result.

asshole
here I was thinking we were having a rather civil and enjoyable conversation with respect for each other and then you drop this on me.
Also I live on a different time schedule than you most of my postings have been at what others consider ungodly hours
I will still respect your thoughts on this topic I just dont think its is accurate atm. if we get more info that discredits my perspective over makoto I very much would consider that to be a very trash story because its the only one that provides some level of narrative to justify behaviors that have occurred.

 

[k1n5l4y3r]

I'm stuck at a happy event, lots of options one is a laptop, it asks for a terminal number, i'm fairly sure i need it to progress. Anyone know what it is?

TIA

terminal is 23

 

[k1n5l4y3r]

Makoto did not plan to bluejay in front of Sensei, it was a spur of the moment, impulsive thing as you can see here:
She says he gave her the idea now, when he talked about the end of the world.

 

[barglenarglezous]

asshole
here I was thinking we were having a rather civil and enjoyable conversation with respect for each other and then you drop this on me.
Also I live on a different time schedule than you most of my postings have been at what others consider ungodly hours
I will still respect your thoughts on this topic I just dont think its is accurate atm. if we get more info that discredits my perspective over makoto I very much would consider that to be a very trash story because its the only one that provides some level of narrative to justify behaviors that have occurred.

To be fair, I think he was talking to himself here, not to you.

 

[chronox42]

On the question of which character is best-written, I have to say Makoto. More than any other female character, she has made me sit back, stop clicking, and think. I enjoy seeing the various forms she takes as her competing priorities pull at her.

I agree with those who say Bluejay was not an act of malice. We know that she had chosen her fate, but I think she made the final decision only moments prior, in a fit of sick poignancy spurred by Sensei's presence. The dialogue seems to support this.

Something related I wonder about: after her attempts to cheat life, Makoto's eyes appear "scratched out", same as Akira's. Does this have a meaning beyond deep depression? Is Akira always in a post-death state? How can he return to normal as well?

 

[vehemental]

Makoto did not plan to bluejay in front of Sensei, it was a spur of the moment, impulsive thing as you can see here: View attachment 2435112
She says he gave her the idea now, when he talked about the end of the world.

She was lying. She brings it up beforehand at least twice:

[The Halloween scene]
mak "It really sucks, you know? You work so hard to be a good girl and people only see the ways you inconvenience them."
mak "And then to make it even worse, the guy you like won’t even have sex with you and it makes your self-esteem go {i}zzzzzzzzzzz{/i} and then you jump off of a building."
s "That last part seems like a bit of an overreaction."

[Main event "A Different View" on the roof]
mak "Perhaps it was something else that brought you here?"
mak "Maybe a hidden urge to throw yourself from the top of a building?"
s "…"
s "Excuse me?"
mak "Hm?"
mak "Did I say something strange?"
mak "It’s not uncommon for people to have thoughts like that. It’s not as if it’s revealing your true intentions or anything of the sort."
mak "But then again, Japan has one of the highest suicide rates in the entire world, so the likelihood of you following through would be marginally higher in some respects."
"I’m..."
"What?"
"What the fuck is she talking about?"
s "Sorry for asking this all of a sudden but, are you okay?"
mak "Of course. Why do you ask?"
s "It’s not like you to randomly go off on depressing tangents like this."
mak "Is it truly depressing if it’s based on logic and reason rather than emotion?"
mak "I’m simply giving you the breakdown of my thought process. I didn’t intend to evoke any darker feelings."
s "I mean...I guess if you say so..."

 

[fdsasdf_p]

Hard for me to decide between Yumi, Rin, Maya, Tsuneyo, Noriko, Sara, Maki, Yuki, and Wakana.

Characters that aren't that well written in my eyes:
Karin. As I perceive, Karin feels like she has almost no screen time, despite having one less event than the sum of Yuki's and Niki's (of course, I'm conveniently ignoring all the times they've appeared outside their events. Or how noteworthy occurrences were influenced/triggered by them). This is a shame since Karin is superior to Kirin in all aspects (IMO, one of the most attractive girls in LiL), except that Kirin makes for a more interesting character overall, at least as a source of conflict and themes. The plot currently demands Kirin more. I'd like to see Karin change and become more prominent. She's a side character among side characters.

Same; for a long time I used to consider Karin as just (1) a Futaba variant, relatively introverted and buxom girls; (2) a reference point existed solely for Kirin; (3) some comedic elements

But now my heart is too weak to stand against how cute she is

 

[Deleted member 2223621]

Makoto did not plan to bluejay in front of Sensei, it was a spur of the moment, impulsive thing as you can see here: View attachment 2435112
She says he gave her the idea now, when he talked about the end of the world.

She was lying. She brings it up beforehand at least twice:

oh wow, thanks, answered this before I woke up.
but yeah makoto was either lying to sensei or she had been planning this for a while and she meant more along the lines that what sensei just said either gave her the courage to do it right there in front of him or what he said destroyed some last lifeline she was trying to throw out before she went through with it.
from what was said... I think it was probably the last life line was destroyed

 

[vehemental]

I mean every scene with makoto before the halloween event always started off with her going "no this is a bad idea we shouldn't do this" to her panting and asking for "more" to feeling like shit afterward. till it comes to a head and she gives up completely on Halloween from the start after basically being edged for several months. so yeah its a very fair one for the start of their dynamic you keep trying to point at the later developments to ignore the initial ones. the blackmail the ranting, the suicide, the bedroom fuck the pain away scene all happened after she broke, not before. there is a cause and effect relationship to this. was she a fragile little snowflake to break so easily at the start... yeah probably

In her first lewd scene, she initially reacts and tells him to get out, but that's just because he walked in on her masturbating. After the kind of embarrassment anyone would feel in that scenario fades, she then says her mom would kill her if she found out. That's the extent of her resistance. She then gets into it so much she thought they were going to have sex.

The next lewd event starts a little darker, she thinks he's blackmailing her into "doing something weird" to delete the photo of her with the dildo in her mouth, but then is surprised and immediately gets into it when it turns out that all he wants is a BJ. She then tells him she would have gone all the way if he had asked nicely. This is the most resistance I found, and it could easily be interpreted as playful banter.

3rd lewd event, she says the following:

mak "It is. No point in hiding it anymore since I know you’re just going to keep manipulating me anyway."
s "Manipulating you?"
mak "Yeah. That thing you do where you get all perverted and force stuff out of me because you know I’m weak around you."
s "That’s just me being me, though."
mak "I know that. But it doesn’t mean you’re not manipulative. "
mak "You know how to get what you want. "
mak "I’m not mad about it. If anything, I should probably be learning from you."
mak "Maybe it was your strategy all along to go from being a good[school]-teacher to a good...life-teacher or something."
s "…"
mak "…"
s "Yeah, let’s go with that. That was my strategy all along."

But then she drops this bomb and proceeds to get fingered:

mak "Want to take advantage of me while we still have the chance?"
s "I don’t know if it really qualifies as taking advantage of you if you’re the one who suggests it."
mak "Hmm...Good point."
mak "Then maybe something like-"
mak "Rewarding me for being the responsible one and reserving this place for all of us?"
s "You can just come out and say you’re horny, you know. I really don’t mind."
mak "But where’s the fun in that?"
mak "If I’m honest with myself, you won’t have fun messing around with me anymore."
mak "Just take a hint and push me down already before anyone realizes that we’ve been gone for a while."

While getting fingered she complains about his unwillingness to fuck her and asks if she's done something wrong.

4th lewd event, last one before Halloween scene:

mak "Obviously, the one you two have is more of a familial relationship while the one you and I have is more..."
mak "Intimate?"
mak "Passionate?"
s "Wow, nothing gets me in the mood quite like a lecture about the differences between my [niece] and you."
mak "Well what else am I supposed to do? I don’t know which door leads to your bedroom yet."
mak "And I can’t imagine you want me taking my clothes off in the living room. That would just be impolite."

Frustration at not getting laid:

mak "Shell? What shell? I don’t have a shell."
s "We all have a shell. Yours is that you apparently refuse to believe that you’re a nymphomaniac."
mak "Who are you calling a nymphomaniac?! I'm a virgin for crying out loud!"
mak "And also! I’m only a virgin because a certain {i}someone{/i} refuses to have sex with me! I’m completely ready! I’ve always been ready!"
mak "I was born ready!"
mak "Well, not {i}born{/i}! But you know what I mean!"
s "So, if I take your virginity today, you’re fine with it?"
mak "Yes! For the love of God, yes!"
mak "Just do it already! "
s "No thanks."
mak "AAAAAHHHHHH!!!!"

This is the most resistance she puts up:

s "Take your pants off."
mak "Why? So you can {i}not{/i} have sex with me again? I respectfully decline."
mak "Actually, no. I {i}disrespectfully{/i} decline. I’m tired of seeing your penis outside of me when it should be inside of me."
s "See? Sentences like this are why I call you a nymphomaniac."

There are some hints that not everything is as it seems on the surface, like her denying her nymphomania and playfully talking about being manipulated, but at no point does she say anything like "this is a bad idea" or give any more than a token amount of resistance that can't easily be interpreted as playful banter. Maybe she did feel like shit afterwards, but that quote I posted previously about being happy she went through with losing her virginity seems to belie that point.

In all four events I referenced above, she mentions a willingness to have sex with him.

you can clearly tell based on context she already decided to suicide at this point before fucking him" I don’t have that kind of time. " she fucked him like that because she already broke or realized she was breaking and decided to just give up and then die.

The more we establish that Bluejay was premeditated whether he was going to have sex with her or not, the more it becomes that Sensei did her a favor of sorts by submitting to her desires after turning her down at least 4 times. She had to do just about every single thing in her power to get him to finally have sex with her. Who wants to die a virgin?

I get that his actions somehow brought forth the current state of her nymphomania, which she blames him for, but contextually I don't think we can characterize what he did as intentional just to get into her pants given his continued unwillingness to. It sounds like he was fine with just messing around until she figured out what she wanted, but what she wanted was sex - now.

You can make your own judgment here, but I just can't see Makoto as the victim in this scenario given how pushy she was compared to every other character. And then once he finally acceded to her repeated demands, she repaid him by forcing him to be there when she Bluejayed herself. Very nice.

fair, but that feels more like a cop out, but i can respect it if thats where yo want to end it.

IDK, I mean it is an undeniably significant feature of the game and her nymphomania came out of nowhere at the start of the game.

well i didnt say she didn't have narcissstic tendencies, but rather that she has deeply traumitized herself over her own sexual urges and externally blamed everyone else that made her feel that way... much in the same way Christians hated on elvis in the 1950s for no good reason. what i'm saying is her pinpoint avoidance and transference of her own guilt is understandable on a human level.

Yes... good... good...

asshole
here I was thinking we were having a rather civil and enjoyable conversation with respect for each other and then you drop this on me.
Also I live on a different time schedule than you most of my postings have been at what others consider ungodly hours
I will still respect your thoughts on this topic I just dont think its is accurate atm. if we get more info that discredits my perspective over makoto I very much would consider that to be a very trash story because its the only one that provides some level of narrative to justify behaviors that have occurred.

I was most definitely talking to myself. Sorry for the confusion. My post was like 10 times longer than yours and I tend not to know when to stop when I go off on tangents