Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.53.0] [Selebus]

[ocworld]

purpose of spite

I disagree if you look at his profile the answer is more likely because he is.

 

[Black Raven]

I don't think that's a sane position at all. Especially when it comes to the wizards

Yes, having a moral panic attack over drawings is the sane approach, definitely.

I am very much of the opinion that if there is no victim then there is no crime, thank you very much.

Sensei's and Maya's relationship seems to be portrayed in a pretty positive light, and there's really no way to say that was anything other than grooming.

We don't know the details of what happened between Akira and Maya yet. But grooming in general is being portrayed in a very negative light. Just how many times was Akira called out for being a piece of shit (including by himself in monologues) ? You think what Sekai did to Akira is portrayed positively ?

 

[alex2011]

You guys keep saying the game can stand on its own without the porn content, in a game where the protagonist is a sexual deviant that lusts after anything with two X chromosomes and can't go on a monologue without slipping in a desire to have sex or masturbate.

I don't get it. The whole plot and theming of the vn would be pretty jarring if there wasn't any of the porn content. And isn't one his aspirations with LiL to be a deconstruction of the harem genre anyway? Not to mention there's planned purity routes, etc. Take out the pornographic content and it would be a pretty big case ludonarrative dissonance.

Not really, you don't have to show the action to get the point across in what is still technically a largely text based medium. Harem is not inherently adult, this is actually a large section of anime in general as a genre. You can deconstruct a genre in a SFW way.

I disagree if you look at his profile the answer is more likely because he is.

If you're taking that quote out of where I think you are, the purpose was directly stated in some cases to be spite.

 

[Black Raven]

É̶͒v̴̔͌e̴̔͆n̴̍̀ẗ̵́̇s̵̽̓:̶̊͂ 0/3 Complete <- Who is This?

Could be the update where we finally get the final side character, currently marked like that as a fancy spoiler tag.

 

[ReegusLeroy]

Not really, you don't have to show the action to get the point across in what is still technically a largely text based medium. Harem is not inherently adult, this is actually a large section of anime in general as a genre. You can deconstruct a genre in a SFW way.

Sure, you can make a VN where sex is mentioned almost constantly and have nothing but the implication of it. Doesn't it mean it won't mitigate the message. Again this is a sexually themed harem VN, with a sexual deviant as the protagonist. Lack of pornographic content would be pretty jarring.

 

[vehemental]

É̶͒v̴̔͌e̴̔͆n̴̍̀ẗ̵́̇s̵̽̓:̶̊͂ 0/3 Complete <- Who is This?

This dumb bitch probably.

 

[alex2011]

Sure, you can make a VN where sex is mentioned almost constantly and have nothing but the implication of it. Doesn't it mean it won't mitigate the message. Again this is a sexually themed harem VN, with a sexual deviant as the protagonist. Lack of pornographic content would be pretty jarring.


Puzzles can't be taken out but porn can?

If it's vital to the design for the player to fight with the gods during these resets, how is it not just as vital when it comes to the porn content?

You've essentially used the same ludonarrative argument for the puzzles while sidelining the porn by bringing up sfw animes, a wholly different medium that doesn't involve player interaction. The pornographic content is just as vital as the puzzles, if not moreso given the protagonist's character.

It's a dark themed deconstruction of the harem genre, it can be done without the side content.

Yes, puzzles can't because they have both an in game and a development reason, to make people pay attention or subject those who don't to the consequence that is getting stuck (it works quite well in that second part judging by how often people get stuck in the resets), making it vital.

The side content has no development reason besides throwing a bone to the same types of players Sel didn't really want to attract in the first place, which is not a good enough reason to consider the side content vital when the only other reason can be satisfied with alternatives.

 

[worthlesspeon]

It's a dark themed deconstruction of the harem genre, it can be done without the side content.

You keep calling it side content and ignoring that there is plenty of mandatory porn in the game. And many of the porn scenes are pretty strongly tied to the larger narrative.

It isn't my definition of optional, that's just how it is. If something isn't necessary, it is optional, and the scenes were never necessary. Look at the Yumi accusations of sexual crimes committed on her by Sensei since basically the beginning of the game, that is a good example of how it can be done without showing the action. All we need is text to know something happened, so he could technically just make the entire game text based and still have it stand, though it would fall out of the visual novel category as a visual element is required. While there is the visual element, the N stands for novel, it is still technically a written medium.

Again your mental gymnastics are very impressive, kudos.

"Look at the Yumi accusations of sexual crimes committed on her by Sensei since basically the beginning of the game, that is a good example of how it can be done without showing the action."

And yet somehow that doesn't apply to the puzzles. Lmao.

Abuses of power and all that are nothing compared to the gods thing in terms of importance to the story, yes Sensei does them, but they are not more important than the driving forces behind the increasingly dark events leading into the next section of development, the dark route.

Pray tell, what do you think the dark route will entail? The one thing sensei has not yet done but the gods are trying to force him to is rape. That's going to involve plenty of mandatory sexual content.

 

[DrFree]

You keep calling it side content and ignoring that there is plenty of mandatory porn in the game. And many of the porn scenes are pretty strongly tied to the larger narrative.

Let's ignore the mandatory sex scenes for a second:
Even if you basically go past them and write "and so we fucked" specifically showing Sensei having sex with his students...
It won't be the same.
Afair, tHere's a fuck ton of monologues that Sensei has during these sex scenes that show his character in ways that can't be shown in others, like in the "happy event" in the clock room.
That shit wouldn't be nearly as impactful without the scene of sensei "nailing" "Maya".

 

[JustADude321]

Can we fuck Maya, Chika, Kaori and the irish chick yet? Those were my favorites, I don't really care about the drama or the horror stuff.

 

[ReegusLeroy]

It's a dark themed deconstruction of the harem genre, it can be done without the side content.

It's not side content. Porn is an element of the game's design as much as the puzzles, hence the lust meter and why some events, which have lore implications, are entirely missable if you haven't got the lust meter high enough.

Yes, puzzles can't because they have both an in game and a development reason, to make people pay attention or subject those who don't to the consequence that is getting stuck (it works quite well in that second part judging by how often people get stuck in the resets), making it vital.

Again, so does the porn. The porn is another layer to add investment to the characters and strengthen the tie-in between player and Sensei.

I don't disagree on puzzles being vital, I think they could be done different but I agree on the resistance being an important part of the experience. I just don't see how all your arguments for the puzzles don't also apply to the porn.

 

[Kaiser Crab]

This is so ironic, but I think my game glitched for real. Like, during the in-universe glitch. When everyone vanishes, I think I had read you had to get 10 "affection" with god, right? I'm at 15 and it still keeps looping. What do I do?

 

[DrFree]

It's not side content. Porn is an element of the game's design as much as the puzzles, hence the lust meter and why some events, which have lore implications, are entirely missable if you haven't got the lust meter high enough.


Again, so does the porn. The porn is another layer to add investment to the characters and strengthen the tie-in between player and Sensei.

I don't disagree on puzzles being vital, I think they could be done different but I agree on the resistance being an important part of the experience. I just don't see how all your arguments for the puzzles don't also apply to the porn.

Wait a second, I remember the lust meter being necessary to unlockcertain events...
But were those events also necessary to continue the main story?
I fucking forgot, but I'm pretty sure they fucking were necessary.

"Secondary content" argument blown the fuck up.

 

[worthlesspeon]

Can we fuck Maya, Chika, Kaori and the irish chick yet? Those were my favorites, I don't really care about the drama or the horror stuff.

Only Chika so far of those.

 

[alex2011]

You keep calling it side content and ignoring that there is plenty of mandatory porn in the game. And many of the porn scenes are pretty strongly tied to the larger narrative.




Again your mental gymnastics are very impressive, kudos.

"Look at the Yumi accusations of sexual crimes committed on her by Sensei since basically the beginning of the game, that is a good example of how it can be done without showing the action."

And yet somehow that doesn't apply to the puzzles. Lmao.


Pray tell, what do you think the dark route will entail? The one thing sensei has not yet done but the gods are trying to force him to is rape. That's going to involve plenty of mandatory sexual content.

I keep calling it that because that's the official word on it. The side content being mandatory is just not the case despite being unavoidable. To make it NOT be side content, it has to be vital to the story, but it is not. The narrative can go without them and remain the same because the narrative is about the events taking place, the sex just happens to be featured in those events unnecessarily.

There are no mental gymnastics, it can't be applied to the puzzles because there is a development reason for the puzzles that is actually good enough to keep them, the attempt to get people to pay attention and to punish those who do not with getting stuck.

Oh no, Denpa games typically get MUCH darker than anything we've seen or been given hints to so far. The dark route is where we could very easily be seeing things as dark as character deaths, especially ones committed through the will of the driving factor of the events getting darker, which is the gods, but also including the potential for characters to go full psycho, especially Ami. Doki Doki Literature Club, while lighter than most Denpa games, is a good example of how the dark route could go.

Let's ignore the mandatory sex scenes for a second:
Even if you basically go past them and write "and so we fucked" specifically showing Sensei having sex with his students...
It won't be the same.
Afair, tHere's a fuck ton of monologues that Sensei has during these sex scenes that show his character in ways that can't be shown in others, like in the "happy event" in the clock room.
That shit wouldn't be nearly as impactful without the scene of sensei "nailing" "Maya".

It would need to be altered a bit visually, but the impact would be there. The sex isn't as integrated as you think.

It's not side content. Porn is an element of the game's design as much as the puzzles, hence the lust meter and why some events, which have lore implications, are entirely missable if you haven't got the lust meter high enough.


Again, so does the porn. The porn is another layer to add investment to the characters and strengthen the tie-in between player and Sensei.

I don't disagree on puzzles being vital, I think they could be done different but I agree on the resistance being an important part of the experience. I just don't see how all your arguments for the puzzles don't also apply to the porn.

Sel said it is, so it is side content, a developer's word on their own work is essentially law on the project. It can be removed with little impact, the puzzles cannot because they serve a purpose outside the story, punishing those who do not pay attention in the hope that people will learn to do so through getting stuck. Notice how that lust meter is completely optional, you can go the entire game without even once incrementing it and the missable aspect is part of them being side content, they wouldn't be missable if they weren't side content, they were designed so that they can be skipped for anyone who has no interest in them and is in it for the story. Also, of course the scenes have lore implications, he's not going to throw sex scenes into the game if they aren't tied into the story, that's not how an adult VN with side content porn works, that's how a porn game works.

This strengthening of tie-ins can be done without the porn, making the porn an unnecessary extra only used as side content.

They don't apply because the puzzles have a development reason that is still just as important today as it was the first time they came in, keeping the player paying attention. Think of it like a teacher coming over to a student sleeping in class and whacking them with a book, not common in the real world these days, but not an uncommon scene in fiction. The sleeping student is the player, the sleeping is not paying attention to the text, and the whack is getting stuck.

Wait a second, I remember the lust meter being necessary to unlockcertain events...
But were those events also necessary to continue the main story?
I fucking forgot, but I'm pretty sure they fucking were necessary.

"Secondary content" argument blown the fuck up.

The parts that the meter is needed for are skipped over if the meter is not incremented (or in the case of lust events tied to main events incremented before the main event happens). This is why you can go through a main event that has a lust event tied to it and not even know there was a lust event tied to it until you notice the event tracker shows a missed event. The Halloween events for example, you can totally miss the Sara/Haruka scenes. This happened quite a bit back when the first Halloween event came in.

 

[Algorist]

I can't believe what I'm reading. The sexual content in LiL is paramount for the thematic integrity of the game. Honestly, I find most sex scenes in this game shit (not fap-worthy). Hell, I've never even touched my dick while playing this game. But I recognize their importance in the narrative.

For example, while I read the last sex scene with Niki, I was focused on absorbing the bits and pieces of lore sprinkled in the dialogue. Mostly ignoring the act itself. Consider the last event with Miku, Sensei's deviancy and thoughts are made clear. His perversion wholly manifested for the audience. He seemed exactly like Sekai. Most of them are nice, in that way. I'd be perfectly okay with all the sex scenes that don't add anything lorewise being cut from the game. I'd be delighted with that, in fact.

But if this game skipped all sex scenes and abstracted them away like: and so they fucked. It would make for an exceedingly dry and lifeless piece. Huggy Boy would like a word with you (and before anyone says: "Oh no, but Huggy Boy was an entirely different beast. It isn't a fair comparison". Yes, I am aware & I agree. This was mostly a quip).

So yes. LiL is unmistakably a porn game. A well-written one. One that has built fantastic, authentic characters. Its atmosphere is unique.

Yet one, nonetheless. These qualities are not mutually exclusive. Maybe not a porn game in the strictest sense, but at that point, I'd classify it as a shitty porn game anyway, as no one would read LiL for the porn. There are much better things out there in that sense.

Concerning the "DRM" affair, I'm not angry at the dev or that dude who made it (who promptly got banned?). That my saves were deleted—and promptly restored—thankfully, I know how to do that; was entirely on me for my carelessness. As a pirate, I'm way past caring about his morality, or the lack thereof. I do not believe that his actions are inherently justified (Illusion and everything), notwithstanding in the same vein as how I'm not personally concerned in explaining myself or justifying my piracy; I wouldn't expect the dev to be morally justified in his attempts at preventing my access to the game.

I do think, however, that he screwed the pooch only by fucking up the game for some of his subscribers and seemingly being okay with putting untested junk inside his software. Bad optics.

 

[DrFree]

It would need to be altered a bit visually, but the impact would be there. The sex isn't as integrated as you think.

I'll leave it at fundamentally disagreeing with what you just wrote in this sentence.
This is a VN, not a book, and visuals are important.
I agree on the lust events in-between the main events, but you can't deny that there are some routes necessary to progress the main story, and in all of them afair Sensei ends up having sex, Ayane being just the first one, again, afair.

 

[fdsasdf_p]

This drama again

None of us really cares if he profits from using authorized or unauthorized assets. None of us really cares if this game is porn/NSFW/questionable/whatever you want to call it. None of us really cares if imaginary characters involved in sexual acts are underage and if the material is illegal in whatever part of the world you're in. And none of us definitely doesn't care if this game is law-abiding under TOS of any platform. All of them, fake issues.


If you did care and were in fact a true supporter of any rule listed above, you should have freaked out a long long time ago and have taken actions (and to be a consistent person, you would have to do this to a shit load of other 18+ VN games out there as well), rather than playing the game and pirating it to help it spread this whole time.


Same goes for porn being a main material or not, simply another segue into legality issue regarding distributing (but if it's just about how everyone sees this game differently in terms of structure, theme and what is important, then by all means please continue)



So why are we talking about legality? (Illusion studio assets, underage adult content, distribution platform rules, porn or not porn, etc)
→"Since you're not on solid ground, it's fine that I do the same by pirating and you are in no position to say and do shit to me"

Why are we talking about his profit model?
→ "If he drowned me, he might drown the innocent others then himself as well. So he won't do anything stupid and he better not!"

Why are we talking about any of it now?
→ "OMG he actually took actions HOW DARE"

This is some people here, bearing the core concept of "I want free stuff without consequence and I want it now!", either trying to find bargaining chips to leverage the act of piracy or reasons to convince themselves that even dev has no right to tilt this strange balance.

If you are truly concerned about whether the files are safe to download or not, don't download ** or just simply wait for two weeks and get any material from itch.io there. People say the suspending is killing me but really it won't kill.

---The following is my half ass understanding about game files; please point out anything outright incorrect---

Doesn't leaked content have to come from someone with legit source? So that would mean if Sel really wants to brick your system he would need to pinpoint the leakers and individually and purposefully provide a copy of malware-containing copy via the same downloading website that all other subscribers use. So unless this technicality can be easily figured out, otherwise I don't this malware is something people need to lose sleep about. It's not some sketchy crack files you use to overwrite something, it's the same script file that chronologically shouldn't be there.

---End---

If you truly despise dev because of his behaviors, don't support him or simply don't play the game. Let his issues get to him rather than us exerting ourselves to fuck him up solely because you can't pirate here anymore (unless you had been extremely offended by him before, in that case I am not in position to tell anyone not to be offended and/or to gauge their grudges). If you feel like teaching him a lesson this way, then what you are doing is not boycotting and you seriously need a hobby.

 

[DrFree]

This drama again

None of us really cares if he profits from using authorized or unauthorized assets. None of us really cares if this game is porn/NSFW/questionable/whatever you want to call it. None of us really cares if imaginary characters involved in sexual acts are underage and if the material is illegal in whatever part of the world you're in. And none of us definitely doesn't care if this game is law-abiding under TOS of any platform. All of them, fake issues.


If you did care and were in fact a true supporter of any rule listed above, you should have freaked out a long long time ago and have taken actions (and to be a consistent person, you would have to do this to a shit load of other 18+ VN games out there as well), rather than playing the game and pirating it to help it spread this whole time.


Same goes for porn being a main material or not, simply another segue into legality issue regarding distributing (but if it's just about how everyone sees this game differently in terms of structure, theme and what is important, then by all means please continue)



So why are we talking about legality? (Illusion studio assets, underage adult content, distribution platform rules, porn or not porn, etc)
→"Since you're not on solid ground, it's fine that I do the same by pirating and you are in no position to say and do shit to me"

Why are we talking about his profit model?
→ "If he drowned me, he might drown the innocent others then himself as well. So he won't do anything stupid and he better not!"

Why are we talking about any of it now?
→ "OMG he actually took actions HOW DARE"

This is some people here, bearing the core concept of "I want free stuff without consequence and I want it now!", either trying to find bargaining chips to leverage the act of piracy or reasons to convince themselves that even dev has no right to tilt this strange balance.

If you are truly concerned about whether the files are safe to download or not, don't download ** or just simply wait for two weeks and get any material from itch.io there. People say the suspending is killing me but really it won't kill.

---The following is my half ass understanding about game files; please point out anything outright incorrect---

Doesn't leaked content have to come from someone with legit source? So that would mean if Sel really wants to brick your system he would need to pinpoint the leakers and individually and purposefully provide a copy of malware-containing copy via the same downloading website that all other subscribers use. So unless this technicality can be easily figured out, otherwise I don't this malware is something people need to lose sleep about. It's not some sketchy crack files you use to overwrite something, it's the same script file that chronologically shouldn't be there.

---End---

If you truly despise dev because of his behaviors, don't support him or simply don't play the game. Let his issues get to him rather than us exerting ourselves to fuck him up solely because you can't pirate here anymore (unless you had been extremely offended by him before, in that case I am not in position to tell anyone not to be offended and/or to gauge their grudges). If you feel like teaching him a lesson this way, then what you are doing is not boycotting and you seriously need a hobby.

Man, with so many walls of text, I wonder who's the obsessed one with who.

We're literally just typing on keyboards, discussing a bit of what's a "porn game" and people bringup again the piracy issue like that's all you can think of. Rent free, I tell you.

Can't we just go back to talk about the game itself, as so many would prefer?

Or would you rather continue being angry at the very existence of this pirate site, and want to virtue-signal about all this bs?

 

[Perniciousducks]

The idea that the puzzles cannot be rewritten in a way to just be long, boring stalls like the rest of the game, and not fit the exact same function of delaying the user from reaching the roof, if not more so, is hilarious.

If you pay attention to the nonsense blather during a season then the puzzles don’t delay you at all, thus breaking the whole theme of them. Where as you could just write lame stalls to replace the lame puzzles and it will universally fit the theme of the gods trying to stop sensei from reaching the roof.