Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.54.0] [Selebus]

[alex2011]

Definitely Otoha. Like it's not even close. At least for now.

Nodoka has at least done things that are "good" for others:

• Taken care of her mother:
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• Worried about and helped Otoha get some freedom:
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• Tested Sensei's dangerousness for everyone:
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• Tried to defend Futaba from Yumi, and was willing to be hurt in her stead:
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  and almost was:
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• Gave Sensei an outlet:
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• Helped Rin get fingered:
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• Etc

Nodoka acts far worse than she actually is.

Even the Blackmailing Yumi stuff is understandable in my opinion, since Yumi mercilessly tormented one of the most important and nicest people in Nodoka's life for who knows how long, just because she could.

Not to say Nodoka isn't a shitty person at times. Nodoka's actual shittiness just seems unintentional:

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for the most part, while Otoha simply can't help herself.

Honestly, where I'd place Nodoka overall is still up in the air though. I can see her intending to protect everyone (or at least those she cares about) from Sensei by being his outlet:

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But, we'll have to wait and see what's really going on.

Nodoka is also definitely far more interesting.

I cannot believe I'm about to defend the girl lowest on my list from day one, but here it goes. Just because Yumi was terrible to some of the other girls, especially Futaba, that doesn't justify what Nodoka put her through.

Also, well before that, we did get a closer look at why Yumi is how she is. She means well, she just doesn't know how to express it, hostility is all she really knows outside of certain situations. It's like Futaba with the body size thing, she ridicules Futaba for her appearance, but her goal isn't to cause Futaba emotional distress, it's genuinely out of concern and she's just going about expressing that the wrong way.

She's still not justified in ridiculing Futaba or any of that stuff, but what Nodoka did to her was far worse, she literally made her touch herself in front of the man who stole a kiss without her consent (first kiss? I forgot) and allegedly did things far beyond what he is supposed to be allowed to do. At least Yumi didn't invade Futaba's privacy and make her do things completely out of her comfort zone and potentially traumatizing.

Pesonally, Otoha being aware of her own shittiness, and not trying to fix it, makes it so much worse for me.

I also could chalk up the kiss to an "oopsy" if she wasn't still pining over Niki:

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That kiss even seems like it was more opportunistic than impulsive:

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She's likely been wanting to do it for a while, and didn't even seem to regret the kiss. Just that Niki didn't like it. Hell, her entire "confession" to Sensei seems actually aimed towards Niki.

To me, it sounds more like she made a mistake with the kiss, and instead of owning it, decided to double down because she is so self absorbed that she can't face the fact that she messed up. I still think she's perfectly willing to cheat while keeping a tight leash on Rin, though. A sort of 'rules for thee, not for me' scenario.

From that second image, context suggests even she doesn't fully understand yet what happened with Niki, she just knows it did and doesn't see it as a major issue, which it really is because that's still cheating. Hence why she doesn't seem to regret it, if she doesn't see it as a big deal, she's going to see no reason to regret it even if it was a heat of the moment impulse she didn't intend to act on at the time. She's so blinded by what she wants, she doesn't see how getting what she wants by specific means hurts the people around her and just how badly they get hurt in the process.

HOPE forbid Rin ever finds out this happened, she's going to be seriously hurt, if not by the cheating itself, by the fact that Otoha wasn't straight with her about it. Staying silent is almost as bad as denying something happened in a case like this. Otoha seriously betrayed Rin here, possibly causing irreparable damage to their relationship.

 

[DeSkel15]

I cannot believe I'm about to defend the girl lowest on my list from day one, but here it goes. Just because Yumi was terrible to some of the other girls, especially Futaba, that doesn't justify what Nodoka put her through.

Also, well before that, we did get a closer look at why Yumi is how she is. She means well, she just doesn't know how to express it, hostility is all she really knows outside of certain situations. It's like Futaba with the body size thing, she ridicules Futaba for her appearance, but her goal isn't to cause Futaba emotional distress, it's genuinely out of concern and she's just going about expressing that the wrong way.

She's still not justified in ridiculing Futaba or any of that stuff, but what Nodoka did to her was far worse, she literally made her touch herself in front of the man who stole a kiss without her consent (first kiss? I forgot) and allegedly did things far beyond what he is supposed to be allowed to do. At least Yumi didn't invade Futaba's privacy and make her do things completely out of her comfort zone and potentially traumatizing.


To me, it sounds more like she made a mistake with the kiss, and instead of owning it, decided to double down because she is so self absorbed that she can't face the fact that she messed up. I still think she's perfectly willing to cheat while keeping a tight leash on Rin, though. A sort of 'rules for thee, not for me' scenario.

From that second image, context suggests even she doesn't fully understand yet what happened with Niki, she just knows it did and doesn't see it as a major issue, which it really is because that's still cheating. Hence why she doesn't seem to regret it, if she doesn't see it as a big deal, she's going to see no reason to regret it even if it was a heat of the moment impulse she didn't intend to act on at the time. She's so blinded by what she wants, she doesn't see how getting what she wants by specific means hurts the people around her and just how badly they get hurt in the process.

HOPE forbid Rin ever finds out this happened, she's going to be seriously hurt, if not by the cheating itself, by the fact that Otoha wasn't straight with her about it. Staying silent is almost as bad as denying something happened in a case like this. Otoha seriously betrayed Rin here, possibly causing irreparable damage to their relationship.

I said "understandable". Not "justified". Nothing Nodoka did to Yumi was "justified", and nothing Yumi has done to anyone is "justified". What Nodoka did to Yumi was Vengeance:

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And personally I agree with Nodoka, it's nothing compared to what Yumi put Futaba through:

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Yumi has potentially fucked Futaba for life and caused her to slowly kill herself. Meanwhile, Futaba has done nothing but try to be nice to her.

Yumi got off rather easy honestly. Just imagine what Nodoka could have done if she wanted.

I'm leaning more towards Otoha knowing how shitty she is, how much it's hurting and going to hurt others, and doesn't really care because she wants Niki to "make a woman" out of her:

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To each their own interpretation though. I'm getting a little bored talking about Otoha, lmao.

Btw, Foreshadowing:

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Nah, it'll probably be much worse. Poor homie.

 

[JelF547]

Pesonally, Otoha being aware of her own shittiness, and not trying to fix it, makes it so much worse for me.

I also could chalk up the kiss to an "oopsy" if she wasn't still pining over Niki:

Spoiler

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That kiss even seems like it was more opportunistic than impulsive:

Spoiler

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She's likely been wanting to do it for a while, and didn't even seem to regret the kiss. Just that Niki didn't like it. Hell, her entire "confession" to Sensei seems actually aimed towards Niki.

Yeah, that is the exact reason she won confession battle. Everybody can confess she is in love with Sensei, but only special one can confess she is a bitch

PS if you need a reason to hate Nodoka, look what has she done with poor Futaba in "Pg. 99"

 

[DeSkel15]

Yeah, that is the exact reason she won confession battle. Everybody can confess she is in love with Sensei, but only special one can confess she is a bitch

PS if you need a reason to hate Nodoka, look what has she done with poor Futaba in "Pg. 99"

I can't really hate someone for not understanding others. I can hate what they've done though.

Nodoka truly seemed to not intend nor expect to hurt Futaba with the whole book thing:

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She definitely fucked up though.

I think the biggest miscalculation on her part, was underestimating just how badly Yumi fucked up Futaba. Futaba is absolutely terrified of becoming "a target again" as she put it:

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[alex2011]

I said "understandable". Not "justified". Nothing Nodoka did to Yumi was "justified", and nothing Yumi has done to anyone is "justified". What Nodoka did to Yumi was Vengeance:

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And personally I agree with Nodoka, it's nothing compared to what Yumi put Futaba through:

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Yumi has potentially fucked Futaba for life and caused her to slowly kill herself. Meanwhile, Futaba has done nothing but try to be nice to her.

Yumi got off rather easy honestly. Just imagine what Nodoka could have done if she wanted.

I'm leaning more towards Otoha knowing how shitty she is, how much it's hurting and going to hurt others, and doesn't really care because she wants Niki to "make a woman" out of her:

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To each their own interpretation though. I'm getting a little bored talking about Otoha, lmao.

Btw, Foreshadowing:

Spoiler

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Nah, it'll probably be much worse. Poor homie.

I would also have to disagree with it being understandable since even Yumi never went that far. Keep in mind I am looking at the severity of each of their actions and making someone do as Nodoka had to Yumi seems more severe than mere words. Vengeance is just as bad as the act that caused it.

Yes, Yumi said some hurtful things, but she never made Futaba actually do something or did something to Futaba. This doesn't change that Yumi was in the wrong with Futaba, I'm only saying that the fact that Nodoka went into actions while Yumi only resorted to words makes Nodoka worse to me. I've been in Futaba's position plus being subjected to actions like Yumi, the actions perpetrated on me definitely had the bigger impact than the words thrown my way. About the only thing Nodoka could have done worse would be to actually assault Yumi or coerce Sensei into assaulting her and, if that's the last remaining thing on the list that is worse than what a character is already doing, that's pretty bad.

I'm definitely not contesting Otoha knows how bad she is as a person, she definitely knows and even admitted it. I'm just thinking the kiss may not have been planned from the start, just something she did on impulse, and that her lack of sense that there is something wrong with it is why she doesn't regret it, because she literally cannot see how her actions affect those around her, she's too focused on herself. This is still bad, just not in the same way as a premeditated action. Either way, it is still cheating on Rin, which is inexcusable and potentially extremely bad for Rin.

Honestly, yeah, I don't think we're getting anywhere with this, we'll just have to leave it at that and wait for further developments. I'm sure we'll see some effect the next time any of the above characters get an update to their character events. I just hope we're prepared for the potential fallout, this could get ugly real fast.

 

[JelF547]

I can't really hate someone for not understanding others. I can hate what they've done though.

Nodoka truly seemed to not intend nor expect to hurt Futaba with the whole book thing:

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She definitely fucked up though.

I think the biggest miscalculation on her part, was underestimating just how badly Yumi fucked up Futaba. Futaba is absolutely terrified of becoming "a target again" as she put it:

Spoiler

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Well, I can assume Nodoka had good intentions. I can even assume that Nodoka made Futaba go through this to help her. But what i can not assume is that Nodoka doesn't know first thing about Futaba's insecurities. And Nodoka definetly capable of liying in Futaba's face, she is a psyco after all.

 

[DeSkel15]

I would also have to disagree with it being understandable since even Yumi never went that far. Keep in mind I am looking at the severity of each of their actions and making someone do as Nodoka had to Yumi seems more severe than mere words. Vengeance is just as bad as the act that caused it.

Yes, Yumi said some hurtful things, but she never made Futaba actually do something or did something to Futaba. This doesn't change that Yumi was in the wrong with Futaba, I'm only saying that the fact that Nodoka went into actions while Yumi only resorted to words makes Nodoka worse to me. I've been in Futaba's position plus being subjected to actions like Yumi, the actions perpetrated on me definitely had the bigger impact than the words thrown my way. About the only thing Nodoka could have done worse would be to actually assault Yumi or coerce Sensei into assaulting her and, if that's the last remaining thing on the list that is worse than what a character is already doing, that's pretty bad.

I'm definitely not contesting Otoha knows how bad she is as a person, she definitely knows and even admitted it. I'm just thinking the kiss may not have been planned from the start, just something she did on impulse, and that her lack of sense that there is something wrong with it is why she doesn't regret it, because she literally cannot see how her actions affect those around her, she's too focused on herself. This is still bad, just not in the same way as a premeditated action. Either way, it is still cheating on Rin, which is inexcusable and potentially extremely bad for Rin.

Honestly, yeah, I don't think we're getting anywhere with this, we'll just have to leave it at that and wait for further developments. I'm sure we'll see some effect the next time any of the above characters get an update to their character events. I just hope we're prepared for the potential fallout, this could get ugly real fast.

Yeah, I'll have to disagree with it both being not "understandable", and a few minutes of earned suffering somehow being worse than months to years of undeserved bullying plus probably a lifetime of fear and insecurity, and a damaged body.

I'm thinking you're forgetting what Yumi has actually done. Here's some of what's actually been shown:

• Made Futaba cry for fun:
  Spoiler

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  Who knows how many times.
• Tried to steal Futaba's towel:
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• Has taken Futaba's books and desk hostage for no reason:
  Spoiler

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• Pinned Futaba against a wall and threatened to kill her:
  Spoiler

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• Etc

She even seems to be the main cause of Futaba's bulimia:

Spoiler

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And Yumi did stuff like this for who knows how long.

Futaba seems to be so traumatized that she's absolutely terrified of being a target again:

Spoiler

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If you still haven't came around to my point of view, then yeah, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[DeSkel15]

Well, I can assume Nodoka had good intentions. I can even assume that Nodoka made Futaba go through this to help her. But what i can not assume is that Nodoka doesn't know first thing about Futaba's insecurities. And Nodoka definetly capable of liying in Futaba's face, she is a psyco after all.

Nodoka knows, she just didn't seem to take it into account. It's likely the same reason she's sleeping with Sensei behind Futaba's back (another "reason to hate her" I don't think anyone's mentioned). Nodoka doesn't seem to see the logic of putting the wants of others above her own wants.

That's one thing I can dislike. Nodoka comes first to Nodoka:

Spoiler

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At least she's honest about it though.

Still, Nodoka definitely didn't seem to want nor try to hurt Futaba:

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I'm sure the next Nodoka event will be quite interesting. She'll either be remorseful, or I might need to revaluate how I see her.

 

[DeSkel15]

My brain after today/night/whatever the fuck:

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[Bingoogus]

My brain after today/night/whatever the fuck:

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Yeah, i was thinking earlier that you were running with all engines on max.

 

[ElukiaTV]

It's alright warrior, you stand tall defending your opinion. Take the deserved rest.

 

[JelF547]

Nodoka knows, she just didn't seem to take it into account

Yep, she did take it into account when she hid that book from Futaba, but didn't take it into account when publised that book. Does it really sounds like

not understanding others

? It more like not give a single fuck about other's feelings when she does not want it

 

[BlackDays]

Do all of you play from a save where you opened Uta's loli pic and just recollected the points or cheated them back in?
Because i reverted to a save where i did not open the "sms" so i had not to do that and played from "a clean slate" there on.

The reason i come up with that is, that, if Akira never saw the pic/s, how would he know how loli Uta looks like?
Isn't it even pointed towards in the conversation/inner monologue/narration that he saw them?
Is this a plot error or are things possible to still happen offscreen?

Because if canon always still happens offscreen, i'd had some more thoughts about "The White Oak Door".

 

[fdsasdf_p]

Off topic stuff

I suddenly feel bewildered by how Sensei managed the most recent Miku mild-OD situation. His panic level is so apparent that it puts his another issue, that is he fucking his teenager students, to shame.
(Seriously, the unfazed reactions of his when Otoha found out and when Nodoka published compared to this. It’s laughable)

Spoiler: Picture abstract

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I’d say with the most confidence that the levels of consequence between these two types of “bad management” are not even close to be comparable. It’s perhaps because this time the consequence involves Io, and meanwhile his chicken brain has convinced himself that he’s the only one that will sink if illicit things get out (which of course Futaba slapped him with her side of reality)

 

[fdsasdf_p]

Do all of you play from a save where you opened Uta's loli pic and just recollected the points or cheated them back in?
Because i reverted to a save where i did not open the "sms" so i had not to do that and played from "a clean slate" there on.

The reason i come up with that is, that, if Akira never saw the pic/s, how would he know how loli Uta looks like?
Isn't it even pointed towards in the conversation/inner monologue/narration that he saw them?
Is this a plot error or are things possible to still happen offscreen?

Because if canon always still happens offscreen, i'd had some more thoughts about "The White Oak Door".

At the end of Uta-chan you’re forced to look at the picture HOPE sent you, so it’s not determined by whether you check your album or not via the menu screen: Sensei is forced to know.

 

[alex2011]

Yeah, I'll have to disagree with it both being not "understandable", and a few minutes of earned suffering somehow being worse than months to years of undeserved bullying plus probably a lifetime of fear and insecurity, and a damaged body.

I'm thinking you're forgetting what Yumi has actually done. Here's some of what's actually been shown:

• Made Futaba cry for fun:
  Spoiler

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  Who knows how many times.
• Tried to steal Futaba's towel:
  Spoiler

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• Has taken Futaba's books and desk hostage for no reason:
  Spoiler

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• Pinned Futaba against a wall and threatened to kill her:
  Spoiler

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• Etc

She even seems to be the main cause of Futaba's bulimia:

Spoiler

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And Yumi did stuff like this for who knows how long.

Futaba seems to be so traumatized that she's absolutely terrified of being a target again:

Spoiler

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If you still haven't came around to my point of view, then yeah, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Agreed on that last part, I'm looking at this as they were both wrong and at the different levels they would be held to criminally (both are criminal offenses where I am and what Nodoka did falls under a higher level charge), not taking vengeance into account as it would also be a criminal act with charges depending on the exact actions taken as vengeance.

I do, however, retract the whole point about Yumi being misunderstood. That must have been confusion with older versions as those are the ones I've kept in my memory, the ones that actually won me over. Lucky me, got hit by the cthree choice, so I'll get to go back and take a look for myself in my upcoming next playthrough.

Well played, by the way. Your arguments were sound and grounded in evidence.

Nodoka knows, she just didn't seem to take it into account. It's likely the same reason she's sleeping with Sensei behind Futaba's back (another "reason to hate her" I don't think anyone's mentioned). Nodoka doesn't seem to see the logic of putting the wants of others above her own wants.

That's one thing I can dislike. Nodoka comes first to Nodoka:

Spoiler

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At least she's honest about it though.

Still, Nodoka definitely didn't seem to want nor try to hurt Futaba:

Spoiler

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I'm sure the next Nodoka event will be quite interesting. She'll either be remorseful, or I might need to revaluate how I see her.

On this, I completely agree. First of all, look at how Nodoka reacts when Futaba walks away in the previous set of images you provided on this topic. She responds in a way that denotes genuine guilt like she knew she said or did something, she just didn't yet know what it was. She is definitely not trying to hurt Futaba here and she definitely seemed concerned about the issue that was brought up in this scene. She's just trying to understand the extent of how she was wrong.

Yeah, i was thinking earlier that you were running with all engines on max.

Indeed, that was an impressive offensive against my defense of Yumi as well, I have to say. It still feels wrong that I ended up taking Yumi's side on this out of any character in that entire topic, that was the last thing I expected to be doing.

Off topic stuff

I suddenly feel bewildered by how Sensei managed the most recent Miku mild-OD situation. His panic level is so apparent that it puts his another issue, that is he fucking his teenager students, to shame.
(Seriously, the unfazed reactions of his when Otoha found out and when Nodoka published compared to this. It’s laughable)

Spoiler: Picture abstract

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I’d say with the most confidence that the levels of consequence between these two types of “bad management” are not even close to be comparable. It’s perhaps because this time the consequence involves Io, and meanwhile his chicken brain has convinced himself that he’s the only one that will sink if illicit things get out (which of course Futaba slapped him with her side of reality)

Because he really is the only one, the other side wouldn't get in trouble even if they were actively participating by choice, that's just how these things go.

 

[BlackDays]

At the end of Uta-chan you’re forced to look at the picture HOPE sent you, so it’s not determined by whether you check your album or not via the menu screen: Sensei is forced to know.

You're right. But it's weird. I thought it was like other messages with an exclamation mark which is why i looked into it.
Both options seemed wrong to me so i omitted answering in my final decision.

That you get to see it in the end of the event i can't remember.
It's also out of habit how it normaly works.

I take it as my memory failing me here.
Still it could also be retconned.
Depends if the "rename your phone contacts" feature ways implemented before or after that event. That'd be a hint.

 

[Bingoogus]

You're right. But it's weird. I thought it was like other messages with an exclamation mark which is why i looked into it.
Both options seemed wrong to me so i omitted answering in my final decision.

That you get to see it in the end of the event i can't remember.
It's also out of habit how it normaly works.

I take it as my memory failing me here.
Still it could also be retconned.
Depends if the "rename your phone contacts" feature ways implemented before or after that event. That'd be a hint.

Pretty sure only the option to delete the photo triggers Selly fuckery, the first one is something like 'i don't deserve you' and that just ends the picture viewing and nothing else.

 

[BlackDays]

Pretty sure only the option to delete the photo triggers Selly fuckery, the first one is something like 'i don't deserve you' and that just ends the picture viewing and nothing else.

I'm aware of what both options do, even back then.
Also translated the cypher back then, to know what goes on.

Keeping picture and his monologue, i was like: This feels bad.
Deleting picture with losing Uta aff points, just felt stupid.
So i thought, let's just pretend Akira never saw the mobile pic.

But i remember it so, that you only got to see loli Uta, if you clicked the mobile icon in the char sheet.
Not that Akira would see it no matter what, as part of the event.

 

[BlackDays]

Since i came up with it and i did that because i read that here a couple of times.

Does anyone even know if Sel retconned something?
Some people pretended he did. Though i don't know of any examples outside of the ch1 rework and typos ofcourse.

I'd be rather interested in knowing if he did retconn anything besides what i mentioned and that being relevant enought to give people second thoughts.