MaxCubot
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GustavoGanz
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This is the first time since I joined this forum where I left the game a long time ago (zero likeable characters, including the wet sock that is the MC) - but stuck around for the comments. This is a wild ride lol.
I am still in my negative extreme at the moment. The Issac fuck after the phone call still has me pretty pissed at Lacey and when you combine all the other elements, well... I am just going to sit in the corner over here and brood for a bit.Come on pal, shitshow is a bit too harsh, don't you think?
I mean, I get where you are coming from, I really do.
But lets not lose our heads.
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I would say there are plenty of reasons in the Act for why he would leave as he did regardless of the ending... but unfortunately the MC never really acts with any real agency to them, so I don't think they can be used as support for him leaving.
I think that is the confusing thing of all of this. From our perspective, all of the information that was gathered in the act based, it would certainly cause an ACT 1/2 MC to go into a fit, but he never reacts that way during those revelations or situations as we have discussed.
So we are left with one scene of him hallucinating, which to be honest again seems to place the blame on him indirectly (ie he is mentally ill, it isn't because Lacey did anything).
I am extremely negative right now with the story, and the reason is likely because I was pretty positive prior to Act 3. What made it difficult for me is that I had accepted numerous issues and faults already with Lacey and her behavior and for the most part had established some "reasoning" that fit for the situations.
Act 3 added so much conflict within the stories characters established previously, that it became a problem for me. Not because of twists, turns, or the like... but simply because the act didn't represent the previous work to any real practical means. It changed too drastically and a everything I had "reasoned" to accept various characters was kind of thrown out the window by the changes.
New information caused me to completely change my perspective of some of the characters, Lacey specifically and what little hope I had for her redemption, a path that could see some means of her was kind of shattered. Maybe some people don't see the conflicts as that big of a deal, but for me... those key things changed her dramatically and set the tone for her relationship with the MC and it isn't flattering.
Keep in mind a lot of this is likely due to the professors writing style and how certain things get overlooked in favor of presenting whatever moment he is trying to convey, but damn... those things really soured it for me.
So barring some major adjustments to the past work, OR some "hat tricks" in future acts, I really don't see this having a positive result and I am not talking about "good ending", simply a positive story cohesion regardless of where it ends.
Don't mind me though, I am just annoyed, and even so I am still here... still wanting to see what Act 4 will provide, but as I said... I am not a happy camper right now on the story flow and structure.
There is one direct sharing (minor actions) if you approve, and one what is essentially cheating (BDSM) unless you try to reason a bunch of limits to what you think cheating is.
The problem isn't some type of major betray in terms of sex cheating... it is more emotional abuse on numerous levels with a lot of lying, manipulation, and some major character changes that question Lacey's and the girls actual care of the MC (the more I think about the ex's encounter in the bedroom, the more I see it as a MASSIVE betrayal of the MCs trust) and the Issac reveal about having sex with Lacey AFTER she committed to coming back to him on the phone is a HUGE finger to the MC and something he should have made an issue with, but... said nothing, did nothing, confronted nothing. There is a lot of little things that if you are paying attention to the past Acts, what was resolved, what was stated, etc... it falls on its face and Lacey comes off (as well as the girls) as devious, manipulative, self centered, and completely uncaring of the MCs situation, often blaming him for his issues (even blaming him for her own choices... ie "Why didn't you come save me!").
If you read the story essentially "phoning in" the past acts, simply accepting the story without any consequence to their actions, it can come off less harsh, not that bad, and in some cases (as I initially thought) positive of certain characters (Lacey forgiving herself, standing up for herself in some situations, etc...), but they are all at the cost of the MC and without out any concern to him.
It felt kind of like "look, lacey was able to traverse that puddle without getting wet... (while she was walking over the MC to achieve it). It was a Lacey act, about her growth, coming to terms and finding some peace... again... at the MCs expense.
Digitool
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Are you saying that she could actually be... nefarious in some way in this? Is the resentment actively known or is it something deep seated to which continues to cause her to act with such disregard to him?Well, one thing that was mentioned here in the thread and has been picked up in the story is the fact that Lacey might resent MC for not helping her in college (the idea from the thread was that the other side was her resentment, which was a pretty good idea admittedly even if I didn't really think it would find a way in the story),
It was always a bit unclear how Anna found Lacey, was she easy to find or hard to find?
In act 3 it seems finding Lacey would have been an easy task, since even Mc never mentions that he wouldn't know at which college she went.
I mean she went out of state, the US is kinda big, but considering that every member of Lacey's alma mater is dropping in the same city, it might not have been that far away
Another thing that is my impression but that is never mentioned in the material, is that Lacey uses sex as a reward for Mc, weaponizing it.
MC comes back after a fight? mega BJ.
MC lets her go on the work trip? (good idea btw) MC fantasy bottle in the ass is performed.
MC is angry about being cheated on? Phone sex.
Mc is angry about Isaac? Sex.
And how can I forget? Jealousy Date? sex marathon.
I mean it seems pretty clear to me, but it is never referenced anywhere.
I mean, it could be active, which means everything she is doing is a show to cause him pain... that could be argued to some extent due to the inconsistencies, her lies, her constant need to control what he knows so she can spin him into a position that can't ultimately hold her accountable to which she can continue her destruction of him.
Or... it could be an inactive, subconscious thing she isn't quite aware of, but because it is a strong aspect of her character, it drives her to act in ways that achieves the same result.
That would... possibly... explain the story a bit better, the lies, the manipulations, the constant "fix" sessions ending in disaster... but even that I think has issues because her behavior when she does cause the harm seems honest in regret. Maybe it is some type of passive/aggressive thing where she lets her resentment drive the action, but then goes into a spiral of regret and depression after each occurrence?
It would certainly change the story, but I think due to me missing a lot of things, I have some feeling it may not fit that well, or would at least require some story adjustments to make it fit better.
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At this point, I just want the professor to take a hard look at his story. This isn't about wanting the story to go one way or the other, I can accept whatever story he wants to tell, even if I end up hating the characters, the situations, and the endings. I can even accept twists, turns, and crazy reveals, but... I just need them to follow some sort of writing structure that makes sense.
If there is twist, a turn, or a character change reveal, explain it... lead up to it, reason it someway. My biggest issue is with having things go unanswered or unattended... or just glossed over as if we are to accept the change simply because it happened.
I don't even mind there being confusion in this... providing at some point... it IS explained. I can ride the crazy roller coaster, deal with all the issues and inconsistencies IF at some point there is that moment... the one where the "evil guy walks out with the long mustache and says... muhhhahahhahhahahha..." with some story revelation that makes it all fit, but... I need that revelation.
If there is twist, a turn, or a character change reveal, explain it... lead up to it, reason it someway. My biggest issue is with having things go unanswered or unattended... or just glossed over as if we are to accept the change simply because it happened.
I don't even mind there being confusion in this... providing at some point... it IS explained. I can ride the crazy roller coaster, deal with all the issues and inconsistencies IF at some point there is that moment... the one where the "evil guy walks out with the long mustache and says... muhhhahahhahhahahha..." with some story revelation that makes it all fit, but... I need that revelation.
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I saw the library, it was so minor, can't even say sharing, rest of it , there was no video or visuals, it was just talk.right
AL.d
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Finally got to play this part and have to say...I hate being the "told ya so" guy but...Anyway just a couple of thoughts, since I just finished it.
1. I hope this episode ends any notion of victimhood for "poor" Lacey. I have argued endlessly that she has never been a victim in this story. She always did what she wanted to do. And what she wanted to do was...be the slut to end all sluts. There was no K in this episode. No devious "corruptors" manipulating the poor nun over the years. And yet she once again did what she does best, which is be a slut. Because its part of her, an aspect of her personality. And to make sure everyone gets it finally, she screams it out of her lungs in her psychotic monologue. She does all that shit because she wants to. Ironically, she finally admitted to an answer she has been avoiding when pressed by MC or others, usually resorting to the "I don't know why" excuse. And she only admitted to it when pressed by...her own self. It was on brand for the character and one of the few bright writing moments of the episode. There is only one victim in this story and we are forced to play as him
2. I was wondering how this dev would keep the relationship drama going with the self-imposed rule of no ntr after act 1. I was suspecting he will have to bend the rule, mostly by introducing flashbacks of things that have happened in act 1 but would get revealed later. Dev decided to do something much simpler. He had ntr in this, but decided to make every one in the game call it "not cheating". Making MC look like a delusional idiot for having the same mindset any normal man would have. Anyone who's ever been in a serious monogamous relationship, knows infidelity doesn't involve just the act of sex. Actually sex is just the final stage of infidelity, with many more preceding it. Having every character pretending the common social norms of monogamy don't exist, just looks stupid and knowing the actual reason for it, makes it look even more....
3. Making this couple the pairing of a dude who's casually hallucinating, with a chick having borderline MPD, is a very bad narrative choice. Because it removes any impact for shit that's happening on screen. Now dev has the leeway to show anything he wants for shock value and then just go "SIKE, hahha it was all fake!". It seems he was chomping at the bits to do it, because he already did just that for the finale. Not a fan.
And something non-spoilery for last. I don't think I have played another game on here, where I'm actively avoiding any sex scene the game lets me to. And have to sit through uncomfortably through the ones it doesn't. They are neither hot or sexy, they are just uncomfortable. It feels like I'm manipulating a mentally impaired dude, to keep getting gaslighted through sex, by a group of abusive weirdos. Because that's exactly what is happening. Even the dialogue in them reeks of it, so patronizing and fake.
Just like a comment said, the direction of the story aproaches torture porn at this point. In more ways than one, because even the actual porn in it, looks like torture. It is interesting in a way that you would read a manga or a book with similar themes and a constantly tortured protag. But being a game, the complete lack of player agency, becomes increasingly more annoying.
1. I hope this episode ends any notion of victimhood for "poor" Lacey. I have argued endlessly that she has never been a victim in this story. She always did what she wanted to do. And what she wanted to do was...be the slut to end all sluts. There was no K in this episode. No devious "corruptors" manipulating the poor nun over the years. And yet she once again did what she does best, which is be a slut. Because its part of her, an aspect of her personality. And to make sure everyone gets it finally, she screams it out of her lungs in her psychotic monologue. She does all that shit because she wants to. Ironically, she finally admitted to an answer she has been avoiding when pressed by MC or others, usually resorting to the "I don't know why" excuse. And she only admitted to it when pressed by...her own self. It was on brand for the character and one of the few bright writing moments of the episode. There is only one victim in this story and we are forced to play as him
2. I was wondering how this dev would keep the relationship drama going with the self-imposed rule of no ntr after act 1. I was suspecting he will have to bend the rule, mostly by introducing flashbacks of things that have happened in act 1 but would get revealed later. Dev decided to do something much simpler. He had ntr in this, but decided to make every one in the game call it "not cheating". Making MC look like a delusional idiot for having the same mindset any normal man would have. Anyone who's ever been in a serious monogamous relationship, knows infidelity doesn't involve just the act of sex. Actually sex is just the final stage of infidelity, with many more preceding it. Having every character pretending the common social norms of monogamy don't exist, just looks stupid and knowing the actual reason for it, makes it look even more....
3. Making this couple the pairing of a dude who's casually hallucinating, with a chick having borderline MPD, is a very bad narrative choice. Because it removes any impact for shit that's happening on screen. Now dev has the leeway to show anything he wants for shock value and then just go "SIKE, hahha it was all fake!". It seems he was chomping at the bits to do it, because he already did just that for the finale. Not a fan.
And something non-spoilery for last. I don't think I have played another game on here, where I'm actively avoiding any sex scene the game lets me to. And have to sit through uncomfortably through the ones it doesn't. They are neither hot or sexy, they are just uncomfortable. It feels like I'm manipulating a mentally impaired dude, to keep getting gaslighted through sex, by a group of abusive weirdos. Because that's exactly what is happening. Even the dialogue in them reeks of it, so patronizing and fake.
Just like a comment said, the direction of the story aproaches torture porn at this point. In more ways than one, because even the actual porn in it, looks like torture. It is interesting in a way that you would read a manga or a book with similar themes and a constantly tortured protag. But being a game, the complete lack of player agency, becomes increasingly more annoying.
If you choose to not do the sharing scene, yes... just talk... but keep in mind she doesn't set him straight and move on, nope.. the fact that she talked to him is BS. Regardless of what the MC said, her response should have been "Tell Lorenzo to fuck off and fire his ass!"
Instead, she does what she normally does... acts like she doesn't, then somehow this ends with her giving advice to her old college fuck buddy who is obsessing over her, you know... because that is something the MC should have to deal with... but then... not only that, she actually walks out... after all that was said and done and says "Hey, so you want to have a threesome?"
Think about that, those words coming out of her mouth right after she just spent over an hour in a room with him (was only supposed to be 10 mins) and the MC is like, nope.. or... sure...
Which then turns into some info special where the MC gets to be praised for being a Bull while she jerks off and gets spunk over her hands by her college gangbang past.
Minor? No... even if you don't do the threesome, this is MAJOR... and it completely flies in the face of everything the MC has been through and shows how little Lacey cares for the MC. This is yet another example of emotional abuse, healing for Lacey (and her fuck buddies) at the MCs expense.
It was a fucked up scene that should have never got past the "I need to talk to the MC..." at the office. It should have been... NO and as I said, it certainly shouldn't have went past the phone call with Lacey, that should have been a NO, period.
But if that happened, Lacey wouldn't get to play with her favorite micro dick
DeviantFun
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This is why I say that the Prof should be careful with his characters, and it doesn't mean that they cannot fuck up, Jeanette already fucked up badly with the hiring of Kelly, going behind MC back, and objectifying her.
Ok there Jeanette fucked up but with a bit of effort we can still see "her", after Vegas? With all the excuses and so on? Not so much.
This is the problem with using drugs as a crutch, the Prof definitely wanted to add a fuck up but at the same time wanted reasonable deniability (same as Bastion) but then it would have made Abby look too bad so he had to swtich again saying that the girls realized all along.
The attempt is clumsy and uninspired, even if you close an eye towards the roofing (which as you said is EXTREMELY dangerous since you don't know the people you are with, and Lacey could very well be on meds other than being an addict), the whole thing makes less and less sense.
Think about this, Lacey gets very horny and handsy, yet she NEVER thinks of his husband nor has any willingness to gets handsy with him, how? why?
Are we not supposed to believe the writing that says that Lacey has no sexual desire towards MC?
Or that ex makes her numb to him? (What?)
Or that Abby magically brainwashed her to not consider him a human being? (What?)
She tells us she knew he was there all the time (coming and going), yet not even once has the impulse to touch him, during the BDSM show she thinks about dildos not him, at the end of the show she is horny but doesn't ask MC to go somewhere and being manhandled neither expresses desire towards him, she jumps straight in with another man.
So it is not a matter of "I did not think it will hurt you", or "I did not realize it because I was high", it becomes a matter of baseline desires..."I did not want you" over this specific thing.
And how can we reconcile this with the fact that even during the gangbangs under K she thought about MC? (which is not a bad addition, and could have been exploited more due to the visual stuff K does).
Was it a lie? Because 2+2 doesn't make 4 anymore.
This gives all the wrong signals and messages to the reader (to MC but he does not realize, because the Prof did not realize I think), so in this situation, all the "these are not attacks against you" told to MC lose any sort of sense.
It is not the problem that you found other people attractive, but in the BDSM club it becomes attractive OVER the MC.
And if you add the justification to the flirting: "he was so different from you", everything starts to crumble again, not because Lacey could have cheated, as I have no problem with trusting her here, but because her desire and sexual attraction (declared by her) were for everyone that asked, but not for MC.
After the pool accident happens Lacey is very shaken, yet she puts everything behind her in a matter of seconds, she understood the situation and she understood she was being drugged, so it, again, stops being an issue of "I did not realize", because she did as she had a discussion with MC, considering what we have seen in 2 acts, what do you think she would have done? Be sad? Reflect on her actions? Stop the nonsense? Try to make it up to MC?
With how cheating has been established, how can we reconcile her looking at MC in the eyes and ask to pay, when we know that looking at him makes she realize things?
This is why Vegas is so fucked up, it has not been thought through, and if anyone pays attention at the story instead of beating themselves off to the drama and NTR fetishes, it starts to make less and less sense and honestly puts a dent on Lacey that shouldn't have been there.
She has to be flawed, she has to fuck up because she has issues, but what is portrayed is on another level.
Yup, just a bit.
I am sorry I have to disagree here, those things are not automatically connected or related.
Being mouth and rage against Lacey is very different from being SAd (or harassed? what is the right term here?), Cal does not seem to be a small man, she is sort of powerless in that situation, sure she could have been way more assertive but when you are caught off guard all bets are off.
I think this is what is going to be the interesting angle, first of all, for Lacey and MC we should stop thinking about harem and more about Family.
Second, the jealousy and maybe the bickering that gets generated by the situation would make this fantasy scenario way more "real", think a poly family more than a harem in the common understanding.
I really think the Prof got a great angle here, with lots of good and bad things that could happen and emotions to explore.
But you are right, the friends need a bit more buildup.
I agree with all of what you have said with just one minor correction on this which should have been: "what the characters spent 2 whole acts classifying as cheating".
I am just reporting someone else idea, which as good as it sound, I did not like at all originally.
It could all stem from the other side, or it could be a subconscious thing, well maybe not so subconscious since Lacey comes out and directly accuses him of not going to save her in college.
Which if she was easy to find, in my opinion she would have a serious argument, there should have been a desperate attempt to at least get closure.
MC is also right in his response.
I think you are getting the wrong angle here, at least for me.
Sure MC is obviously shocked, but I get how Lacey is tired and annoyed at this point and just wants to get over with it.
I think that part really underlines how sex for her is really just a thing, and I think it reflects the material well.
What does actually clash a bit is how Lacey doesn't want to be shared (it is stated often but for reference look at the intro of KW) and will do so only to please MC (slut path makes it very clear).
This is for Lorenzo's benefit.
It just needed a bit more buildup, a brief discussion with MC, maybe tugging his heartstrings and his hornyness (you all know full well he is horny as fuck).
Even a simple "I will make it special for you" would fit.
Oh and I also think it should be treated as a major thing, such as the JD.
For some people the game does not start properly.
By removing those two images the game is allowed to run.
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Diosvincenccio
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Issues with the inconsistencies of the characters. Take Mia for example, we leave her after a super risky plan capable of breaking her relationship with her best friend... to turns out that she made that for reasons that barelly matter... Lacey goes from dumb as fuck to sage advice back to dumb as fuck in a whim, Jeannette from serious and wise conceliour to suddenly a horny party girl, Kelly from nice "Lacey without hurting MC tendencies, replacement" to a whatever you wanna call her after the mind tricks.
All those changes come suddenly, without any indication at all, theres no build up to it, the characters just change their personality because how the Prof wanted to use them like that at that moment, he pushes the characters into doing things they wouldnt do according to what he has shown so far, instead of guiding them into the natural conclusion or at least have some foreshadow of the reveal, and we as readers are forced to "accept it" and "let it go" because its word of god, even if it dosent make sense.
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More than one... And quite of few of crimes already happened in the story, believe me, i know a couple of things about the law.
The entire population in L&J universe has mental issues... thats the excuse? Jokes aside...Its not about the characters having a flaw, but the build up to the reveal of it, and how its handled after...
Getting fucked in gangbangs a lot does not get you a degree in psychology (maybe one in graphic design like the one Lacey has?) nor makes you an expert in treatment of deptly mentaly rooted issues. His size is not just a "dick and ego problem"
Bringing toys to the relationship was couple concelour advice, her healthy self depreciation with actual examples was good dating and therapyst advice, the attitude to cucking was a sound warning...
How are we to reconciliate that all the excelent dating advice cames from someone that understands so little of relationships?
And no, Lorenzo issues are not as complex and integrated into the character as what Lacey and MC have, but no so easy to figure out and advice as you try to make it.
For my last point on this, she made the same mistake as Abby. Took a simple look and decided to play therapyst, it was not her right to do so... the only reason we arent complaining more about it, is because she took the gamble and got lucky, she gave somewhat good advice. But then again, it was still self entitlement, she again showed a "i know best" aproach to someone else feelings.
Never intended to apply some judgement on the Prof decisions/logic/ideas...i guess... bad wording on my side again. By "bad ideas", i meant ideas that end plasmed into the script in a badly executed form, scenarios or conversations he has in his head that make sense and logic, but that the reader can missinterpretate or reach a conclusion that the writer didnt intended to.
On the other point...Nobody is completely neutral and objective, everyone is biased. The only one who could be considered minimally neutral is the writer itself, and i already made my point of why he should listen to someone else voice... Again, i want to remark this... LISTEN... not obey, LISTEN to someone else take on what he has writen, and then DECIDE if he is confortable in what he has writen, if the words in the "paper" (script) are what it was meant to be, because those show exactly what he had in his head. It would always be the Prof choice to follow the advice given or go along with what he has initially written or decided.
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DeviantFun
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Just a minor correction on my part, Lacey and Abby are not comparable.
Lacey is ASKED for help and does her best to do so, I will never agree with anyone that says that Lacey is not good deep down, she does not like to see people suffering (with the exception of MC if the resentment angle is confirmed, but even then that hurts her as well).
And it also corroborates what Mia said, maybe Lacey lies to herself when she says the three stooged meant nothing to her, she had a sort of connection with all three for different reasons.
Look at how she lets Stephen or Isaac off the hook for example, she always refers to their shared past.
And also makes the burning scene way stronger, since it shows how she could have actually cared if they just were better with her.