Comics Collection Melissa N. Collection [2024-09-22] [Melissa N.]

Thalantyr

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Dec 1, 2023
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The story doesn't say Marina helped Andrew get his life back on track.
It kinda does:
GREECE1426.png GREECE1436.png

So according to Poena, Marina remained by his side through the method acting problem, and according to Andrew, he wouldn't have been able to get his life back on track without her. That doesn't necessarily prove that she knew what he was going through or actively did anything to help him, just that she was there and he found something about her to be helpful.
 

chalana.56

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Dec 3, 2023
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Lamy says it will be back soon. Of course you're welcome to stick around here for Melissa N. stuff. Just please don't constantly beg for updates like they do on APC... new updates always get posted here as soon as the uploaders get around to it. They don't need reminding, only patience.
This.. i don't know how u did it back in 8muses thals but in apc they just bombards inbox everytime cassie put a update to remind me theres a update. It was hilarious first but now soo annoying
 

Thalantyr

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Dec 1, 2023
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i don't know how u did it back in 8muses thals
I was mean and grumpy all the time and yelled at people until they stopped doing that. And sometimes I was extra petty and purposefully delayed posting updates whenever I saw someone asking for them. :ROFLMAO:

Especially when people would ask for updates within minutes of them getting published on Patreon/TGC/whatever, as if I'm just sitting at the keyboard all day mashing F5 to get the latest updates. Or even better, when they'd ask before the thing was actually published. They couldn't even be bothered to check for themselves whether the thing they're asking for actually exists.
 
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Jackjons

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Dec 1, 2023
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I was mean and grumpy all the time and yelled at people until they stopped doing that. And sometimes I was extra petty and purposefully delayed posting updates whenever I saw someone asking for them. :ROFLMAO:

Especially when people would ask for updates within minutes of them getting published on Patreon/TGC/whatever, as if I'm just sitting at the keyboard all day mashing F5 to get the latest updates. Or even better, when they'd ask before the thing was actually published. They couldn't even be bothered to check for themselves whether the thing they're asking for actually exists.
Lol... asking for update is something like tredition now days, if the person is new comers then sometimes it is understandable, but I watched many old members also continue asking new update after 1 minutes of original content upload! They don't even bother to read other messages they asking ytsnow's comics so much after so many times telling them can not upload ytsnow's comics! They don't understand! I stop replying them !
 
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Stevedore100

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Dec 4, 2023
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It kinda does:
View attachment 4031027 View attachment 4031029

So according to Poena, Marina remained by his side through the method acting problem, and according to Andrew, he wouldn't have been able to get his life back on track without her. That doesn't necessarily prove that she knew what he was going through or actively did anything to help him, just that she was there and he found something about her to be helpful.
And we still have this whole thing about Andrew being forced (I can't recall the exact wording used) into marrying Marina.
 

Thalantyr

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Dec 1, 2023
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And we still have this whole thing about Andrew being forced (I can't recall the exact wording used) into marrying Marina.
That was pretty much the exact wording:
ch20-0988.png

There's also this line which is intriguing:
ch20-0991.png

She makes it sound like Andrew cheated on Marina or something. Neither of the two "incidents" we're currently being presented with in the flashback (getting immersed in method acting and losing all their money by investing in a film production) seem to have anything to do with whether or not he was happy with Marina. Was there a third incident? Or maybe the alcoholic asshole character cheated on Marina... and she forgave him... and then he lost all their money... and then she forgave him again? Oi. I hope that's not what actually happened, because... damn, Marina. You're super hot, you can do way better than this guy.
 
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Stevedore100

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Dec 4, 2023
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That was pretty much the exact wording:
View attachment 4031600

There's also this line which is intriguing:
View attachment 4031595

She makes it sound like Andrew cheated on Marina or something. Neither of the two "incidents" we're currently being presented with in the flashback (getting immersed in method acting and losing all their money by investing in a film production) seem to have anything to do with whether or not he was happy with Marina. Was there a third incident? Or maybe the alcoholic asshole character cheated on Marina... and she forgave him... and then he lost all their money... and then she forgave him again? Oi. I hope that's not what actually happened, because... damn, Marina. You're super hot, you can do way better than this guy.
I think it has to do with this - we don't know what role he took, but it is dangling there as something important in Andrews mind.
 

rebirth095

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Jul 25, 2021
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ch20-0991.png

She makes it sound like Andrew cheated on Marina or something.
Given the current information, I'm interpreting this as: If Andrew really loved Marina and was wanting to marry her, he wouldn't have risked the wedding money.

So I think it's still "only" two incidents. Before this reveal, we talked at length about how the incident needed to be something that threaded the needle. Something where it was believable that Marina could forgive Andrew and it was reasonable for Andrew to not be fully at fault (as a parallel to the current events). Based on what we learned now, it just makes me feel that much more weird about our protagonist.

Going back to the discussion about having a satisfying ending... Like... Andrew just seems like a super scummy person. He couldn't help himself with the method acting issue back then, but it is certainly his fault that he lost the money. Even if there was a bit of trickery involved, he apparently kept in communication with Orlov for some reason.

But even if we don't fault him for that: This completely re-contextualizes most of this story.

1) This means that Andrew always knew he was susceptible for getting stuck in a character. Despite that, he willingly took on a highly intensive and deep role.

2) For some reason, even after the time skip, it takes the dream sequence before he is reminded about the method acting. But even before then, there should have been flags that he needed to pull out, not go deeper.

3) Unless Marina has been determined to feminize Andrew from the start, this has to mean Marina had no clue about the method acting. Otherwise, she wouldn't have just vaguely referred to an incident. She would have brought up at any of the various points: "Hey, are you having trouble staying as Andrew?" Furthermore, she would have suspected Andrew was lost in character again when he didn't respond to the code word.

Now, I think there's a lot that contradicts the idea that Marina was in on feminizing Andrew from the start. The main one is that Marina was actually threatened by Roan. We see exactly how it plays out. Now, if this was purely something Marina says to Andrew, than it could be her lying. But it wasn't. It was shown to us directly in the flashback to fill in the blanks of info we weren't privy to.

Granted, there's a chance the flashback inside a flashback inside a dream sequence isn't really what happened, and it's supposed to be just the depiction of how Marina is explaining it to Andrew. Honestly though, I'd find that to be incredibly frustrating as a reader. The story has often jumped to other POV with the understanding that the reader has a "God" view of things. What we see and read is supposed to be "actually" what is happening. Especially in a mystery, if flashbacks don't have the same level of trustworthiness as the current scenes, then how can we know any of Andrew's flashbacks are an accurate retelling of what happened, as opposed to unreliable narrator shaping things by his biases?

Some of the other scenes could support a nuanced version of her wanting to feminize Andrew. If it was that she was wanting to feminize him as punishment and knew about the method acting issue:

- Her not bringing up his past problems would make sense.
- Her being upset at him not remembering the code word could be concern that something unplanned is happening.
- Her being upset that Elena is sleeping with Nikos could be she's unhappy that this isn't a punishment if Elena is happy.

However... I just don't see the plan here: You can't feminize your husband into the trophy wife of your uncle, knowing that he loses himself in character, and then be surprised that he's in character and fucking said uncle.

Ideas_Surprised_Pikachu_HD.jpg

That's just a terrible plan. I suppose it's still possible she didn't know about the method acting and was just intending on an "old fashioned" feminization plan. But even still, you can't team up with your uncle to make a fucktoy for him, and then be surprised when he fucks said fucktoy! If her problem is that it went too smoothly... Honestly, so what? Mission accomplished!

Anyway, all that aside, I wanted to revisit the discussion on the ending not leaving a bad taste in the mouth. Because with this latest revelation, that definitely muddies the waters even further for me.

I can't say I think Andrew deserves a happy ending. Like, if he ends up enjoying being Elena and gets into a happy marriage with Nikos... That's really not satisfying to me given what we know now about "the incident". Turns out, Andrew was a bad husband. Or at the very least, he's incredibly unappreciative of Marina (she helped him get out of an out of control spiral. If he didn't want to marry her, than call it off. But to then lose her money and then STILL string her along and marry her anyway? And after all of that, ride her ass accusing her of cheating?! That's fucked up). So should he be rewarded for that?

damn, Marina. You're super hot, you can do way better than this guy.
After AM ends, I wouldn't mind it in the slightest if in a future unrelated story, Melissa reused the Marina model as the feminized protagonist.

Well, if the "Joel is gonna be turned into a twin of Marina" theory holds true, maybe that's already in the cards!
 

Thalantyr

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Dec 1, 2023
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Going back to the discussion about having a satisfying ending... Like... Andrew just seems like a super scummy person.
I know Melissa said this story won't have a dark ending (or maybe she said happy ending? I forget her exact wording). Perhaps her idea of a happy ending means revealing that Andrew is so terrible of a person that by the end we don't care about the horrific things that happened to him, or even that it seems justified. Maybe the "happy" part is Marina finally escaping a shitty, idiot husband who repeatedly abused her trust. Nikos finally explains to her that despite him being an evil mastermind, he did what he did out of love for her, gives her a big chunk of cash as a consolation prize and payment for his new sex slave, she falls in love with James and they ride off into the sunset to start a new life together.

Of course, there's still way too much ambiguity in the Orlov flashbacks to properly judge Andrew or Marina at the moment. Hopefully Melissa starts rapidly filling in the blanks in the next few updates.
 

MyraTSF

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Dec 22, 2023
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I know Melissa said this story won't have a dark ending (or maybe she said happy ending? I forget her exact wording).
It was said it won't be a dark ending so people won't have a bad taste in their mouth at the end, but it wasnt clarified it will be a happy ending either.

Whatever ending AM will have at the end I just hope its not somekind of Denver Clan(?) "and she woke up it was all a dream" kinda thing just with Orlov having directed a "movie" and none of the drama or dangers were anywhere consequential.
 

rebirth095

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Jul 25, 2021
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753
I know Melissa said this story won't have a dark ending (or maybe she said happy ending? I forget her exact wording). Perhaps her idea of a happy ending means revealing that Andrew is so terrible of a person that by the end we don't care about the horrific things that happened to him, or even that it seems justified. Maybe the "happy" part is Marina finally escaping a shitty, idiot husband who repeatedly abused her trust. Nikos finally explains to her that despite him being an evil mastermind, he did what he did out of love for her, gives her a big chunk of cash as a consolation prize and payment for his new sex slave, she falls in love with James and they ride off into the sunset to start a new life together.

Of course, there's still way too much ambiguity in the Orlov flashbacks to properly judge Andrew or Marina at the moment. Hopefully Melissa starts rapidly filling in the blanks in the next few updates.
2023_06_06.png

For ease of searching, I'll also type it out:

"I know this is a dark chapter, but I don't want anyone with a bad taste in the mouth when this story is finished. All I can say now is that the story won't have a dark ending! :)"

That's where this gets kinda confusing/weird. Let's say all of this is to show that Andrew is a shitty person and we're supposed to get on board with the feminization as a sort of "punishment". But unless it really doubles down and turns it into a bit of identity death, it seems like lately, Andrew isn't really treating it like a punishment. He's still a "victim", but outside of his inner consciousness seemingly berating him to reflect on his actions, there hasn't been any introspection or character growth. Hopefully that's coming up.

But then on the flip side, the idea that the story won't have a "dark" ending is really ambiguous. Is "punishing a bad person" a dark ending? Does it depend on how "bad" the punishment is, or whether they end up enjoying it? I kinda go back to my semi-rhetorical question:

Which of Melissa's stories does she feel have had a dark ending? Is Journey to the Unknown a dark ending, or does she think it's fine because it turns out the main character "wanted it" in the end?

Is That's a Job for a Milf a dark ending considering a well accomplished woman was identity deathed, and a young man lost years of his youth? Or is it not because our main characters mostly get what they want?

Or Tug of War? Need for Speed? Heck, even Not So Temporary Roommate?

Just looking at the overall style, my personal impression is that Melissa's overall writing preferences are that if the feminized character makes peace with the feminization by the end (either in a relationship, having power/money, or just being desirable), then that's more satisfying than not. It's a common and recurring theme, with Roommate probably being the closest one that I think she'd consider "dark".

I'll note, this isn't a criticism of preferences: What makes for a satisfying story/ending is obviously a matter of personal preference. But that does mean that if we're using Melissa's comments to try to guess where the story is going, we need to understand what those comments mean.
 

Stevedore100

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Dec 4, 2023
146
459
View attachment 4033394

For ease of searching, I'll also type it out:

"I know this is a dark chapter, but I don't want anyone with a bad taste in the mouth when this story is finished. All I can say now is that the story won't have a dark ending! :)"

That's where this gets kinda confusing/weird. Let's say all of this is to show that Andrew is a shitty person and we're supposed to get on board with the feminization as a sort of "punishment". But unless it really doubles down and turns it into a bit of identity death, it seems like lately, Andrew isn't really treating it like a punishment. He's still a "victim", but outside of his inner consciousness seemingly berating him to reflect on his actions, there hasn't been any introspection or character growth. Hopefully that's coming up.

But then on the flip side, the idea that the story won't have a "dark" ending is really ambiguous. Is "punishing a bad person" a dark ending? Does it depend on how "bad" the punishment is, or whether they end up enjoying it? I kinda go back to my semi-rhetorical question:

Which of Melissa's stories does she feel have had a dark ending? Is Journey to the Unknown a dark ending, or does she think it's fine because it turns out the main character "wanted it" in the end?

Is That's a Job for a Milf a dark ending considering a well accomplished woman was identity deathed, and a young man lost years of his youth? Or is it not because our main characters mostly get what they want?

Or Tug of War? Need for Speed? Heck, even Not So Temporary Roommate?

Just looking at the overall style, my personal impression is that Melissa's overall writing preferences are that if the feminized character makes peace with the feminization by the end (either in a relationship, having power/money, or just being desirable), then that's more satisfying than not. It's a common and recurring theme, with Roommate probably being the closest one that I think she'd consider "dark".

I'll note, this isn't a criticism of preferences: What makes for a satisfying story/ending is obviously a matter of personal preference. But that does mean that if we're using Melissa's comments to try to guess where the story is going, we need to understand what those comments mean.
Sure. "Not a dark ending" could well be that Andrew ends up with Nikos - he's repeatedly moved closer and closer to accepting his constant rationalization that being Elena is just easier for him. That could well be his happy ending.
And Marina is pretty fed up with the marriage at this point and may well view this as her escape, whether or nit she hooks up with someone else. Nikos was going to compensate Andrew for his effort, maybe that goes to Marina and she's swell with that
 

rebirth095

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Jul 25, 2021
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That could well be his happy ending.
One of my points though is "does he deserve a happy ending?" Because currently, I'm not sure I'm exactly rooting for him to get happily married. It would "leave a bad taste" if the end result is "Andrew is happily married as Elena, and Marina gets a new stud". Because frankly, none of that feels like "justice". Andrew doesn't deserve a happy marriage. He also didn't deserve to be feminized. And Marina doesn't deserve to be gaslit by her family and emotionally betrayed by her husband.

That's where I'm kind of stubbornly butting heads with this entire description of not being a dark ending and also not leaving a bad taste. At this point, I feel like we almost need to have some level of a dark ending, because at this point, there's enough that's "wrong" and people that have been wronged that there's some mutually exclusive endings here.

Like, I've gone over so much about how Nikos is really fucked up. At best, the only way to salvage that is if Andrew actually deserved what was happening to him, and that this is being done for the sake of Marina (with the trophy wife as a bonus on the side). In my mind, that's the only way to justify how terribly they've treated Marina (unless Marina is also a terrible person and we haven't learned that yet).

But if that's true, than Andrew enjoying being Elena would leave a bad taste in my mouth. There's no brainwashing here, so the "identity death" aspect is kinda up in the air. But if the above scenario is true, where if the story really started hammering home that Andrew was just a terrible husband... Him having a happy ending would just make that ending have a "bad taste in my mouth".

Or flip it around. Let's say Nikos is actually the bad guy and isn't doing this for Marina's sake. Andrew isn't meant for us to want to root for him to be punished. In that case, Andrew being happily married to Nikos gives Nikos a happy ending he doesn't deserve.
 

Stevedore100

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Dec 4, 2023
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One of my points though is "does he deserve a happy ending?" Because currently, I'm not sure I'm exactly rooting for him to get happily married. It would "leave a bad taste" if the end result is "Andrew is happily married as Elena, and Marina gets a new stud". Because frankly, none of that feels like "justice". Andrew doesn't deserve a happy marriage. He also didn't deserve to be feminized. And Marina doesn't deserve to be gaslit by her family and emotionally betrayed by her husband.

That's where I'm kind of stubbornly butting heads with this entire description of not being a dark ending and also not leaving a bad taste. At this point, I feel like we almost need to have some level of a dark ending, because at this point, there's enough that's "wrong" and people that have been wronged that there's some mutually exclusive endings here.

Like, I've gone over so much about how Nikos is really fucked up. At best, the only way to salvage that is if Andrew actually deserved what was happening to him, and that this is being done for the sake of Marina (with the trophy wife as a bonus on the side). In my mind, that's the only way to justify how terribly they've treated Marina (unless Marina is also a terrible person and we haven't learned that yet).

But if that's true, than Andrew enjoying being Elena would leave a bad taste in my mouth. There's no brainwashing here, so the "identity death" aspect is kinda up in the air. But if the above scenario is true, where if the story really started hammering home that Andrew was just a terrible husband... Him having a happy ending would just make that ending have a "bad taste in my mouth".

Or flip it around. Let's say Nikos is actually the bad guy and isn't doing this for Marina's sake. Andrew isn't meant for us to want to root for him to be punished. In that case, Andrew being happily married to Nikos gives Nikos a happy ending he doesn't deserve.
This is all very true. Then again we have an incredibly loopy narrative that after 23 chapters, still has no discernable direction as to who is good bad or indifferent. Andrew has done some shitty stuff, but a lot may be in response to other people doing shitty stuff to him, some of which he doesn't even realize. Nikos may be an evil, morally depraved psycho, but otoh, he may be a blind innocent fool.
Marina, of course, is perfectly innocent of all shenanigans. (this is for Thalantyr)
Seferi is bad, I'm convinced of that. He shot a man, and it wasn't even in Reno.
 

Thalantyr

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Dec 1, 2023
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Marina, of course, is perfectly innocent of all shenanigans. (this is for Thalantyr)
Okay, so I'm sympathetic toward the one character who is losing everything and being treated like shit by everyone. Sue me. :p
At least "Elena" is enjoying herself.

Marina is also one of the few characters whose POV we've seen firsthand, so I have a hard time wrapping my head around her being involved in the feminization scheme and then also being confused/angry/hurt at Elena's behavior. Unless, perhaps, the original plan was for Marina to take the love slave for herself. Maybe Marina's the one with the MILF fetish and she's just jealous that Nikos stole her new toy. Maybe they'll give her Joelia. :D

Edit: No, wait. Joelene. That's way better.

Joelene, Joelene, Joelene, Joelene!
When you wake up you won't be a man
Joelene, Joelene, Joelene, Joelene!
Take it slow, you'll get used to those new cans

Your beauty is beyond compare
Now that we've shaved your body hair
With an ass so plump it's practically obscene
Your dick is gone, but don't you fret
What you've got now gets nice and wet
You're ready for your Master, now, Joelene
 
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rebirth095

Member
Jul 25, 2021
244
753
Okay, so I'm sympathetic toward the one character who is losing everything and being treated like shit by everyone. Sue me. :p
At least "Elena" is enjoying herself.

Marina is also one of the few characters whose POV we've seen firsthand, so I have a hard time wrapping my head around her being involved in the feminization scheme and then also being confused/angry/hurt at Elena's behavior. Unless, perhaps, the original plan was for Marina to take the love slave for herself. Maybe Marina's the one with the MILF fetish and she's just jealous that Nikos stole her new toy. Maybe they'll give her Joelia. :D
So playing devil's advocate (I do think there's way more evidence that Marina hasn't been complicit since the start, so this is imo highly improbable), there are some possible explanations for some of her confusion and anger.

- The initial anger at Andrew committing to being Elena is just her lying. She travels to isolate Andrew.
- Her meeting Roan is a lie and the flashback we see isn't what actually happened.
- Her being surprised when she next speaks to Andrew is more acting. And her leaving just in time so that the Doctor goes too far with the surgery was pre-planned, with the flashback showing James showing up another lie.
- Her getting upset about Elena not responding to the passphrase is because she's concerned since Andrew shouldn't be ignoring the passphrase. She's wanting to see Andrew fully immersed in the role while also being terrified about the mob plot.
- Then, she sees Elena is planning on marrying Nikos and is sleeping with him, while also ignoring the passphrase. She believes Andrew's happy, which isn't part of the plan. Which makes her even more upset.

Now, there's some major signs this isn't true. For one, I think the fact that Marina originally kept referring to Elena with the name Andrew even after all the surgery was a big sign that she wasn't trying to force him down that path. Otherwise, she would have directed the conversation to play up the whole "scary mobsters are looking for Andrew". Similarly, after the time skip when she keeps being resentful towards "Elena", if all of this was meant to be to spite Andrew, I'd expect the inner thoughts to be either referring to Andrew, or to be sarcastically calling her Elena, rather than seemingly playing it straight.

Also, Nikos is the one that instigates the feminization plot. So for Marina to be wanting to feminize Andrew, she must have worked with Nikos.

This means there's two problems/oddities with Marina being part of the feminization plot.

1) If the plan was to fuck over Andrew for Marina's sake, than Nikos should be directing Elena according to Marina's wishes. Which clearly hasn't happened. Now, one could argue that he's now backstabbing Marina. If that were the case, than you'd think Marina would have had a stronger confrontation towards Nikos.

2) If she is really working with Nikos, then there should be minimum surprises. While you can argue most of the things Marina says are explainable as part of gaslighting Andrew, I think scenes like bringing up Filip's disappearance and reappearance make no sense in that context. If Filip's just part of their plan, then it's super weird that Marina brings it up without directing Andrew to do something with that information. Seems more dangerous to leave a loose end like that.
 

Stevedore100

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Dec 4, 2023
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So playing devil's advocate (I do think there's way more evidence that Marina hasn't been complicit since the start, so this is imo highly improbable), there are some possible explanations for some of her confusion and anger.

- The initial anger at Andrew committing to being Elena is just her lying. She travels to isolate Andrew.
- Her meeting Roan is a lie and the flashback we see isn't what actually happened.
- Her being surprised when she next speaks to Andrew is more acting. And her leaving just in time so that the Doctor goes too far with the surgery was pre-planned, with the flashback showing James showing up another lie.
- Her getting upset about Elena not responding to the passphrase is because she's concerned since Andrew shouldn't be ignoring the passphrase. She's wanting to see Andrew fully immersed in the role while also being terrified about the mob plot.
- Then, she sees Elena is planning on marrying Nikos and is sleeping with him, while also ignoring the passphrase. She believes Andrew's happy, which isn't part of the plan. Which makes her even more upset.

Now, there's some major signs this isn't true. For one, I think the fact that Marina originally kept referring to Elena with the name Andrew even after all the surgery was a big sign that she wasn't trying to force him down that path. Otherwise, she would have directed the conversation to play up the whole "scary mobsters are looking for Andrew". Similarly, after the time skip when she keeps being resentful towards "Elena", if all of this was meant to be to spite Andrew, I'd expect the inner thoughts to be either referring to Andrew, or to be sarcastically calling her Elena, rather than seemingly playing it straight.

Also, Nikos is the one that instigates the feminization plot. So for Marina to be wanting to feminize Andrew, she must have worked with Nikos.

This means there's two problems/oddities with Marina being part of the feminization plot.

1) If the plan was to fuck over Andrew for Marina's sake, than Nikos should be directing Elena according to Marina's wishes. Which clearly hasn't happened. Now, one could argue that he's now backstabbing Marina. If that were the case, than you'd think Marina would have had a stronger confrontation towards Nikos.

2) If she is really working with Nikos, then there should be minimum surprises. While you can argue most of the things Marina says are explainable as part of gaslighting Andrew, I think scenes like bringing up Filip's disappearance and reappearance make no sense in that context. If Filip's just part of their plan, then it's super weird that Marina brings it up without directing Andrew to do something with that information. Seems more dangerous to leave a loose end like that.
My opinion is that Marina is rather innocent in all that has gone on. My feeling is more that Andrew came to Greece with some idea of..... something, whether to regain the money he lost, to do something for Or live, so etching. Marina didn't know - we do have everyone looking for Andrew Woods for some reason, which make me suspicious. My guess is two, or 3 plots ran into each other - whatever Andrew was up to, the impersonate Ninos' wife plot, and whatever cringey thing Seferi and others are up to. How! That's a complete mystery to me , but I'm on good Marina side.
 

Thalantyr

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Dec 1, 2023
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I can confirm that at the time of this post, none of these pages have been edited to add racist dialogue. Of course, if you see a "Last Edited" date/time that's after the date/time I posted, all bets are off. Also, the last page (#96) is missing.

Edit: I've attached SFV and MD5 files for anyone who wants to verify the file hashes against the legit Patreon files for themselves.
 
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