More complex games and game mechanics

[DyingStar87]

Hi everyone,

I've been wondering if there's any interest in adult games other than a VNs? I mean, with different, more complex game mechanics and game elements other than a sex (quests, exploration...etc.). Something like a classic RPG/Shooter game with story, where adult content is one of the game elements, rather than a main element. Romancing characters that player will meet during quests/exploration, complete quests to gain character's affection...etc. I know that everyone's taste is different, but what's your overall experience/knowledge?

 

[anne O'nymous]

I've been wondering if there's any interest in adult games other than a VNs?

Of course there is.

One of Winged Cloud biggest hit is Sakura Dungeon, and among the pure amateur production there's games like Damsels and Dungeons by example. There's also the two hits, Summertime Saga, and Wild Life. While the first one can possibly be seen as a sandbox multi-VN (a different VN depending of the location), the second one rely on a radically different mechanism. Then you can look at the oldies, like Abandoned: A tale of forgotten lives by example. And those are just five example among hundreds.

Something like a classic RPG/Shooter game with story, where adult content is one of the game elements, rather than a main element.

Do you have the knowledge to make the 3D meshes, textures, maps and animations, as well as the UI design, game balance, and codding, that will be needed by such game ? Or at least do you have the money to pay the people that will do it ? Wild life is a 5 years old project still in progress, and a classic RPG/Shooter game is far more ambitious than it.

The question isn't, and never have been, "do the players want this", but "am I able to do it well enough". And the answer is only exceptionally "yes".
While players are ready for more that VN(-like), they will still mostly fallback to them if what you propose isn't enjoyable or, worse, not playable. Whatever if they are porn or adult games, the key word is "game" ; they need to be entertaining before everything else, especially when you decide to add "advanced" game mechanisms.

 

[DyingStar87]

I'm glad you mentioned WildLife, I'm supporting them on Patreon for over 2 years now (great game). See, technical stuff should not be an issue, I studied 3D art for real time rendering at uni, and also have 2 years of experience from game industry (I've soaked some other knowledge during meetings with game designers, UI designers...etc. at work). Thing is, I have never been happy working on such projects. That's a reason I teamed up with my wife and started working on our own project. WildLife has actually been my big inspiration over last 2 years, and convinced me to try to do what I love to do. Project is currently in early development stage and we have decided that it would be a good idea to start building a community, to get some support and feedback (which is crucial for the development, sooner we will start receiving feedback, sooner we can start making amendments to the game design). I was just not sure if there's an interest for such a games.

So thank you very much for the reply and for the heads up.

 

[The Rogue Trader]

There's another angle to the issue: not only everyone can develop a VN/RPGM game with minimal starting investment (time, knowledge or resources), but everyone can play one.
I know for a fact I'm not the only one that when sees a game tagged "unreal engine" opens the thread, watches the screenshots, sighs and then closes the thread without looking back.

But yes, there's some serious interest in full 3D games: they are novelty and they smell of "the future is in this direction". But those projects are very complex and very few developers manage to stay afloat enough time to deliver a fleshed out product.

 

[anne O'nymous]

I know for a fact I'm not the only one that when sees a game tagged "unreal engine" opens the thread, watches the screenshots, sighs and then closes the thread without looking back.

Oh yeah, I myself gave up on most Unity and Unreal games because of their mechanisms.

While, like I said, porn/adult games are games before everything else, there's a limits to this. They should be entertaining, but not too challenging ; both in terms of difficulty, and in terms of gameplay.
With the mod scene, there's enough "regular games" to play when we want a challenge with a bit (or more for Fallout/Elder Scrolls series) a lewd. This left to porn/adult games a too small place and, globally speaking, we play them either when we want a bit more interaction than porn movies, or pure entertainment. This left us with less patience in regard of the challenge we expect from those games.
Someone that would be ready to dedicate one full day to this hard parts in a "regular game", will generally give up after the second attempt when it come to a porn/adult game. And the one that would be amazed by the UI depth for a "regular game", would sigh and give up if he found the same depth in a porn/adult game.

It's not that we don't want challenge and advanced game mechanisms in those games, just that, still globally speaking, we want to be entertained before everything else. Whatever if you play firstly for the story, or firstly for the lewd, you don't want to be stopped too often in your quest for it. Everything that goes between the entertainment and yourself tend to become annoying way faster than with "regular games".

 

[DyingStar87]

I know for a fact I'm not the only one that when sees a game tagged "unreal engine" opens the thread, watches the screenshots, sighs and then closes the thread without looking back.

But why is that? I mean, from screenshots you don't even know what the game is about. Is it a bad experience? Or you are just simply not interested in this type of games in overall (in which case you are probably not a target audience)? My personal experience with bad Unity/UE games is that some developers tend just to throw bunch of outsourced assets to the scene without any specific plan or heading. But that has nothing to do with game engine rather than a development process. Same can apply for VN games, you get a bunch of good ones, and bunch of bad ones. I personally enjoy VNs as well as UE games, as long as they meet some standards. So why this dislike for games made in specific engines?

 

[The Rogue Trader]

Oh yeah, I myself gave up on most Unity and Unreal games because of their mechanisms.

But why is that? I mean, from screenshots you don't even know what the game is about.

I apologize. I see that I should've spent more words and brainpower to make sure I was making myself clear.

My problem isn't with quality, or mechanics of the whole of UE games.
Here I'm representing the players that have outdated PCs. And we are legion.
I can be amazed by the stunning visuals of a UE game, but I know beforehand that it would be a horrible experience for my hardware, assuming it would start at all, so it would end up being a horrible experience for me.
Thus the sigh, and the walking away from the game thread.
And this isn't even taking into account the "five hours to download, 20 minutes to play" problem that's quite common with those games while in early developement (especially if developed by small teams).

I don't shy away from complex mechanics in a lewd game, if the lewd is good too (and possibly abudant). Heck, on Nutaku I played for years smut games that were 99% gameplay.
Anne mentioned the Oblivion/Fallout/Skyrim mods, that I loved (and will love again when I'll find the time to customize Skyrim to my liking and start playing it): those mods are often clunky, lore-unfriendly and anti-immersive and yet they spotlight a niche that some devs are rightly aiming to step in.

But I noticed that many people here on f95 are very vocal about gameplay "not getting in the way of the story".
I personally decided to dumb down the gameplay of the project I'm working on, fearing that the target audience would not like to stop the flow of narration to play a card game, no matter how tactially engaging, original or well-balanced said game was (assuming I could make it engaging etc.).
Of course this is less true when the game mechanics (usually conflict-resolution) are integrated in the main game structure instead of being mini-games. But I suspect that even in a full 3D sexy game, players will be more interested in NPC-interaction than in PVE fighting.

P.S.
BTW, I'm wrong or bestiality is overrepresented in full-3d games?

 

[Tompte]

Regarding the original question: Yes, of course! That's why we call them games. I find it funny how so many people on this forum use the word game to exclusively mean visual novels. VNs are fine, but please broaden your horizon people.

My problem isn't with quality, or mechanics of the whole of UE games.
Here I'm representing the players that have outdated PCs. And we are legion.
I can be amazed by the stunning visuals of a UE game, but I know beforehand that it would be a horrible experience for my hardware, assuming it would start at all, so it would end up being a horrible experience for me.
Thus the sigh, and the walking away from the game thread.

That's an interesting point. I know exactly what you're talking about. But I don't think the engines are to blame, rather people's inexperience and lack of understanding about how to make performant games (and, honestly, how to make games in general).

I can immediately identify someone's first attempt at an Unreal Engine game because every single post processing effect is enabled and the motion blur is turned up to max. They turn on every graphical feature they think makes a scene look better (although I would hardly call them 'stunning') without understanding their performance costs, because they don't know how any of it actually works.

Games that come from first-time hobbyists, who can't even bother to change a default settings and who confuse chromatic aberration with quality, are usually not worth your time (or money) anyways and you shouldn't be too sad about not being able to play them.

 

[Saki_Sliz]

Do I want more complex erotic games?

I like to ramble, I often write walls of texts like you see here, and I'll often edit it to reduce the size of it, make it more manageable, or figure out my main point, or I'll just realize that what I have to say isn't that important and just erase my message. However, I think this is a good example of exactly what happens with a lot of game making projects, so I deiced to keep this in its raw form.

Just as The Rogue Trader mention, there are different kinds of players and player situations. I have a dedicated gaming rig I've invested to over the years, so I don't have a problem playing the latest games, but the games I like don't really match most of the F95 audience. I am the best example of the worst kind of player, I have no attention span for learning a game's story or mechanic, and I have no patience when it comes getting to the goods. In fact, I'm the type of player that prefer's to play the female or the victim focused character, because it allows me to drive the story faster than any romance type story. My favorite adult game is trap quest, simply because your character is trapped in a world that makes them lewder, and unlike other similar games (text based adventure games like TiTS or Corruption of Champions) trap quest includes lots of art and visual aids.

There's always interest in more complex games, in something that could deliver the elusive 'more'
I don't think its a lack of demand that's causing a void, rather its a series of issues that combined leaves this unfilled void.

Mainly, in terms of money, its not that money can't be gained, but rather capital is spent in other simpler projects simply because its 'good enough' and 'good enough' is pretty much the only thing that survives when it comes to economics (look into 'product s curves' if you really want to learn more). So basically, while there is demand, no one is funding the supply because funding (at least from companies and big investors) is always go to easier cash grab, low risk targets, such as Nutaku being a main company which supports erotic games. Basically, we can't rely on society or the industry to supply the funds to make the games we want, because we are either too few, too niche, weird, or too many of us are too easy to please with ... what I guess I'll call "simpler games" (no offence The Rogue Trader, I too played a lot of Nutaku games).

So if we can't expect others to do it, we simply have to do it ourselves! Often a lot of game dev's on this site join on simply because they played a game that they were so inspired by... and in the 12 years of 'casually' trying to make games I've learned what looks simple isn't hard if you know what you are doing, but its always slow and tedious. But before even that becomes an issue, the first main issue devs face is simply learning, they are new to gam development, and there is a huge learning curve with little to show for the effort. With teams I've tried joining or forming, if you can't get "meaningful" results in the first two weeks, the team basically dissolves.

What is "meaningful" results? This only became clear to me as I work on larger and larger projects (and never completing anything). Something is meaningful when we think the results matches the amount of time we put in. Not effort, just time. and I find that the most time a person can comprehend and "get a feel for" (aka a sense of measurement) is about a months worth of effort and time. Whether I'm working alone or with a partner, we both have a certain 'expectation' of what we want to achieve, we work, put in the time, and the results can either fail to meet expectations, or even if we match it, the amount of time put into it seems greater than what is really noticeable in the final results, and what tends to happens is:

- If our work doesn't match expectations soon enough, one can start to loose motivation
- If we get it perfect but it takes too long, we start to 'devalue' our result and our goals because it seems far to simple/primitive despite how much time and effort it takes, so our project seems to be less amazing (similar to me erasing most of my messages I mentioned before, because I ramble without really adding much to a conversation)

Basically, I have concluded that the reason VN's tend to be the most popular on this site, is simply they are the 'best' to make for new and 'casual' devs, they deliver the most amount of deliverable result per unit of effort, be it in text or image form, and most of the skill involves learning the tools (daz, renpy, twine) with more experienced devs being able to take greater advantage of python or what every their tool is to create more intricate games (such as those games which fake an interactive phone in renpy).

This hints at a fundamental problem, the fact that we are either new or 'causal' devs, not professionals, so we are more susceptible to the whims of motivation and energy. Most of the professional dev's and programmers I know don't have the time or energy to work on their own projects, and those that do just play around with concepts, not such much with projects. Now, while I haven't had to develop code at a professional level, I do consider myself fairly decent at programming... despite not having released any game projects in the past 8 years. I want bigger and better games, and I think I can make them... but like all the other dev's I have to overcome a few hurdles.

First there is motivation, as mentioned. A lot of projects died simply because I would stop to chase after the next cool idea that came to mind after I got bored with the first idea. For a while it really killed motivation and I imagine a lot of new devs give up when they loose motivaiton but want to work on another cool idea, but know just how slow the process is. I've solved this simply because I've had so many ideas and projects in the past 8 years that currently my one and only project is a combination of all my ideas, into what has become a roleplaying AI. This has become a project that I can not fail, it is simply too important for me (it also help that I got a more stable job that I enjoy more).

Skill, this simply takes time and effort and experience, a lot of programming is simply knowing how to do something because you did it already. Even if you don't have skill, this can be offset simply by having 'resources' such as already having art assets. In my case, I've spent the past 8 years learning art, while I've collected a lot of assets, most of my art resources come in the form of custom scultped character morphs I can use for designing 2D character, and having a workflow that I have accepted.

Lastly, time. It can always be a case of simply putting time into your projects, like all the devs who spend hours rendering daz images for their VN's. However, in the case of more complex game mechanics, when you have to code things by hand, there is a lot of 'dark work' or work that never gets noticed but makes it possible to make your game. such as coding up a tile importer so you can use tilemaps in your game, you need it because you decided you want your game to use tilemaps, but no one is going to congratulate you for figuring it out how to implement such a system. Then theres dev tools, things that should help make the game quicker. In my case I've experimented with making custom game engines, modular game engines, ect. but every time you stop to work on something that doesn't directly add to your main project, it feels like you are working on a different project entirly.

Currently, I want to work on my game, which will demonstrate the roleplaying AI. While I have the AI planned out across several hundred pages and spreedsheets, coding it will take more than what my mind can comprehend, it is simply too big, too detailed, too nuanced, and I need a way to make sure its working 100%, and I need it to work with my game which will definitely be in C#, either in Monogame, Unity or Godot, but as much as I love C# its still not as powerful as I need it to be in order to problem free. So I started creating a custom datatype that I can use to create and define my AI with. But because I'm still not certain how I want to approach things, I ended up making a 'generic' datatype. And it turns out, when you create a custom datatype that is meant to represent anything, you end up creating a 'syntax' like that of a programming language.

My goal is to eventually achieve something called 'Concept Oriented Design' (though I have to do something so it doesn't get confused with Call of Duty), where you don't need to worry about the technical aspect of a project, you just need to describe your ideas, and the program simply simulates (virtualizes) the idea, allowing for quicker development. It basically works by knowing how to breakdown ideas into abstractions, representing these abstractions with my custom made programming language (like a compilers 'intermediate representation' code), and then emulating the code (such as how Python is an interpretive language that is emulated by an Interpreter coded in C). And rather that making a project using 'code' it represents projects more like a collection of sticky notes. And depending on the 'interpret' interface the design process can be more or less graphical.

I'm only doing this whole side quest with making a new and custom programming language because I have to, because the project I want to do is simply too much for me to code it raw, but my hope is in the future, such an idea is successful enough that other people start to use it, and that its powerful enough that people can start to develop more complex games quicker, to solve the skill, time, and motivation issues I mentioned.

 

[FromOtherSpace]

HI,

It may be out of place but this:

there's enough "regular games" to play when we want a challenge with a bit (or more for Fallout/Elder Scrolls series) a lewd. This left to porn/adult games a too small place and, globally speaking, we play them either when we want a bit more interaction than porn movies, or pure entertainment. This left us with less patience in regard of the challenge we expect from those games.

make me think about one question I have for my (future?) own game(s...).

Does having one game mechanic which allow to unlock characters/"LI" and another "gamy thing" which only focus on lewd is a good way to implemente my porn in a game?

Spoiler: Useless junk about my projects. No need to read to answer :)

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[anne O'nymous]

But I noticed that many people here on f95 are very vocal about gameplay "not getting in the way of the story".

What doesn't mean that you can't have gameplay, the games I used as example above prove it. But it have to have a meaning in regard of the story. It's why western RPG Maker games don't have much success. Too often they add combats or puzzles for the sole purpose to have them. It add nothing to the story, and most of the time you wonder why you've suddenly to fight a bunch of rats in the middle of the streets, or have to solve a puzzle to enter in your girlfriend house.
But, except perhaps players that are here only for the fap, games with effective gameplay are generally liked. Whatever if it's something complex like Sakura Dungeon, or basic like Damsels & Dungeons.

I personally decided to dumb down the gameplay of the project I'm working on, fearing that the target audience would not like to stop the flow of narration to play a card game, no matter how tactially engaging, original or well-balanced said game was (assuming I could make it engaging etc.).

Everything depend on how the said card game insert into the game and its story. If it's the story about a James Bond like seducer, him going in a casino to find his next girl can be an interesting approach. But if it's the average college guy, yes it would goes in the way of the story since don't really add something to it.
This being said, another possible approach is to have it optional. The game would have the "basic" way to earn some money, and for those who want, they can play some card games, with the risk to loose everything, but also the possibility to earn way more.
This "optional approach" is used relatively frequently in recent games. Those who want will have to pass through the mini-game, and those who don't like this will have a short scene that will summarize the action they should have be done. It's by example the choice made in This Time, where you can have some point'n'click parts, or see the key CGs that will show the different actions.

Mainly, in terms of money, its not that money can't be gained, but rather capital is spent in other simpler projects simply because its 'good enough' and 'good enough' is pretty much the only thing that survives when it comes to economics (look into 'product s curves' if you really want to learn more).

Reason why Winged Cloud never did another game like Sakura Dungeon. It was a big hit for them, but in the time needed to make it, they can make two, perhaps three, VN. In terms of profitability, the second option is obviously the best one. And it become even more true when the game is made by an amateur, like it's the case for most of them.

Basically, we can't rely on society or the industry to supply the funds to make the games we want, because we are either too few, too niche, weird, or too many of us are too easy to please with ...

I think that it's also a question of legacy.
For a long time the scene was filled mostly by basic Flash games, and the companies behind them was really successful. This have two implications. Firstly investors know that going this way works, secondly the profession is formatted for this and there's near to no coders in the scene that have the knowledge to create something different.

With teams I've tried joining or forming, if you can't get "meaningful" results in the first two weeks, the team basically dissolves.

While doing something different in terms of gameplay need months of preparation. And here there's a big trap... If you focus too much on the gameplay, you end with something that can be interesting, but you've no story that goes with it. What lead to the many Unity/Unreal games that tried to do something different, but never goes further than a demo. But in the same time, if you don't care enough about the gameplay, you end with no space to finally insert it.
Creating a game, a true one that will have an interesting gameplay coupled to an interesting story, need months of thinking before you write the first line of code and the first dialog. And during this time you've nothing more than ideas.

Basically, I have concluded that the reason VN's tend to be the most popular on this site, is simply they are the 'best' to make for new and 'casual' devs, they deliver the most amount of deliverable result per unit of effort, [...]

Among this, there's also the public reaction. You'll put months of works to offer something different, and what you'll get is, "stop milking, release an update", and other, "what the fuck is this, I want to fap, not to [whatever gameplay you did]". Whatever how many people will say that they like what you did, it's those twos that you'll remember ; "All this time for 'that' ? Does it really worth it ?"

Most of the professional dev's and programmers I know don't have the time or energy to work on their own projects, and those that do just play around with concepts, not such much with projects.

That's not true, I'm... saying that one day I'll have the time to make my own game since just four years now...
Well, ok, it's totally true... The day I'll really find the time, you'll be amazed by all the concepts (that will then be totally outdated) I have coded.
This said, more than a question of time and energy, I believe that it's a question of stress. Working on concept is a way to change your mind ; some do crossword, programmers try to tweak code in an amazing way. This while working on the game itself would be doing at home what you're doing at work. I'm two months late on the update for one of my mods because summer was hard at work and, while it don't need to much time or energy, I just don't feel like writing "serious code" when I'm back at home.

Skill, this simply takes time and effort and experience, a lot of programming is simply knowing how to do something because you did it already.

To be honest, a big part of the rest is knowing where to find someone that already did it.

[...] but no one is going to congratulate you for figuring it out how to implement such a system.

Worse, near to no one will notice that you figured it out. You did something nearly impossible, and people will be "well, it's not bad".

I'm only doing this whole side quest with making a new and custom programming language because I have to, because the project I want to do is simply too much for me to code it raw, but my hope is in the future, such an idea is successful enough that other people start to use it, and that its powerful enough that people can start to develop more complex games quicker, to solve the skill, time, and motivation issues I mentioned.

Well, it's totally possible. It stand at a different level, but Ren'Py started because 15 years ago PyTom, or a friend of him I don't remember for sure, wanted to make a VN.

Does having one game mechanic which allow to unlock characters/"LI" and another "gamy thing" which only focus on lewd is a good way to implemente my porn in a game?

The way you present it, it can be interesting.

For now I don't know if I should make this other "gamy thing" always available (aka "you have unlocked 2 characters, you can fuck them at anytime, no need to play another battle nor grind") is the best way or making it more useful but limited (aka : "This turn, you can get a bonus with one of these two characters you have unlocked. Which one would you fuck before next battle/level?").

Personally, if I had to implement something similar, I would goes on the "admiration path" ; I don't like sex as reward, reason why I used "admiration" instead
It would starts with something like "wow, after such difficult combat you must be tired, let me give you massage, you deserve it". Then the more the hero do glorious action, the more the girl admire him and is ready to give her self and her dignity to him ; "wow, you saved me from this monstrous beast, you're so strong and vailant... you can have my ass tonight".

Some will complain, but I'm almost certain that those who prefer effective games would like it. Especially since it change form the usual sex on loose, here you've to succeed to have sex. Just be careful when balancing it, it need to stay doable even for people who aren't really good with this kind of games.
It's the reason why platformers and games like that have sex on loose ; the author didn't knew how to balance this, and everyone can loose.

 

[The Rogue Trader]

I like to ramble, I often write walls of texts like you see here, and I'll often edit it to reduce the size of it, make it more manageable, or figure out my main point, or I'll just realize that what I have to say isn't that important and just erase my message.

Ah, same here. and then I discover that the parts I cut away because they were redundant were indispensable to be understood.
Noy yo mention that after spending half an hour writing a long-ass post I get pissed off with myself because I wasted all that time instead of writing the next scenes for my game.

Basically, we can't rely on society or the industry to supply the funds to make the games we want, because we are either too few, too niche, weird, or too many of us are too easy to please with ... what I guess I'll call "simpler games" (no offence The Rogue Trader, I too played a lot of Nutaku games).

I don't see anything to take offence at... Anyway I believe that there's a growing awareness in the industry that lewd games are a profitable market, but most companies are just, well, let's say embarrassed at the idea.
In Japan the market is entirely different. Unfortunately, Japanese lewd games are almost invariably a festival of cringe. And then there's the can of worms of censorship.

With teams I've tried joining or forming, if you can't get "meaningful" results in the first two weeks, the team basically dissolves.

Sigh... Let's not open that chapter now. :'(

a lot of programming is simply knowing how to do something because you did it already.

A lot of crafts, indeed. It's something me and my partners say often.
I've seen it in practice dozens of times:
Day 1: "Oh, let's start this work."
Day 3, evening: "Pant pant... I finished it. Tomorrow morning I'll send it to print [or whatever]."
Day 4, morning: "Ok, about that work... NOOOOO the file is lost/damaged! I've to start from scratch!"
Day 4, afternoon: "Pant pant... I finished it. Now I'll send it to print [or whatever]."

My goal is to eventually achieve something called 'Concept Oriented Design' (though I have to do something so it doesn't get confused with Call of Duty), where you don't need to worry about the technical aspect of a project, you just need to describe your ideas, and the program simply simulates (virtualizes) the idea, allowing for quicker development. It basically works by knowing how to breakdown ideas into abstractions, representing these abstractions with my custom made programming language (like a compilers 'intermediate representation' code), and then emulating the code (such as how Python is an interpretive language that is emulated by an Interpreter coded in C). And rather that making a project using 'code' it represents projects more like a collection of sticky notes. And depending on the 'interpret' interface the design process can be more or less graphical.

Don't take this badly, but this reminds me a bit of when I was in high school and my buddy decided he was going to "train matrices" with a Darwinian algorithm to predict the Lotto numbers of the week (it was the early 90s and he a proud owner of a 486 DX80).
Anyway, "Concept Oriented Abstract Design" would work as a name? I wouldn't recommend "Concept Oriented VIrtualization Design".

putting lewd things in a battle is not thing (I hate rape porn/game and like).

Actually, sex in battles can perfectly be non-rapey. How many times did you see: "The first one to cum loses" (tantric sex battle) or "We'll fuck until you won't be able to take more" "What? You'll back out way before me, you dummy!"?
There aren't many games that use sex battles as a base mechanics (I remember an ancient but quite fun one called "eotical [sic] nights") mostly because it can get a bit repetitive, but in theory, I'd love to see more of them. Especially if they don't involve foot focus...

For now I don't know if I should make this other "gamy thing" always available (aka "you have unlocked 2 characters, you can fuck them at anytime, no need to play another battle nor grind") is the best way or making it more useful but limited (aka : "This turn, you can get a bonus with one of these two characters you have unlocked. Which one would you fuck before next battle/level?").

There are lots of games that explore either path. The most common solution is the first: you gain enough rewards (exp, gifts, materials) to "evolve" one of the girls, and the evolved version is sexier and unlocks a new sex scene that you can access freely.
The latter is usually story-locked:
"My Lord, the field is ours, we defeated the Orcs and freed the Temple of the Goddess!" "I'm still full of energies, Helen, let's celebrate your Goddess in the way she favours!"

Heck, there's even a TVtrops page related to this:

You must be registered to see the links

(used to include more... family-unfriendly games, but TVtropes has been taken over by prudes some years ago)

The way I'd implement it (from the height of my two just started games) is by having the MC having stats and the LI needing a minimum score in those stats to advance.
I use personality traits (Witty, Discreet, Dominant, Stoic, etc. etc. ) but there's no reason you can't track other stuff like "Spells cast", "Goblins slayed", "Pockets picked" etc.
Then sex should also give some rewards.

Whatever if it's something complex like Sakura Dungeon, or basic like Damsels & Dungeons.

I need to give these classics a look. Not enough time to play porn games... This is where the market has gone...

Everything depend on how the said card game insert into the game and its story. If it's the story about a James Bond like seducer, him going in a casino to find his next girl can be an interesting approach

IMHO it doesn't really matter how much sense it makes, but how much this mechanics is integral to the game. In other words, if it's part of the deal the dev makes with the player.
In your "superspy" example above, if James Bond goes to the casino to earn some money/clues/advance plot and the player has to sweat his blood for the next hour playing the most compelling, realistic and engaging Baccarat simulation ever, he won't be happy. He didn't download "Baccarat Simulator", he downloaded "Octopussy: The cock is the limit". He's there to see Bond boning bond-girls.
Now, if the baccarat scene, instead of being a self-contained minigame, would be a tense battle of wits between the superspy and the girl, where they stop every hand or so and have a sexy (or plot-advancing) short dialogue before returning to play...
But that's a huge load of work, and even large companies will be able to pull this trick only rarely.

In my game, the Card Game was to simulate battles and other conflict-resolutions (like Persuasion, Stealth, etc). The original dev squeezed his soul dry trying to code an AI, and was so enthusiastic about the rules that he made me rework the mid-game story to have more mass combats even where I didn't plan them.
Then he gave up and left the game to me, and one of the very first things I did was cutting the game in a way that I believed was still going to be tactically engaging, but that wouldn't take too much of the player's time. Mostly because I had to lure a new coder and the previous system would have scared away anyone.
Then, reading various threads, I decided that the brain-teasing card battles game was still too much a distraction from the VN/RPG aspects, and I razed it down to the ground.
Making it optional wasn't an option. It's not Gwent, it's part of the game mechanics.

 

[Saki_Sliz]

Personally, if I had to implement something similar, I would goes on the "admiration path" ; I don't like sex as reward, reason why I used "admiration" instead

I've always wanted to do a 'confidence' point system to upgrade character 'willingness' to do something or experiment, with maybe a second phase related to how much a character would considered doing something again, but this was inspired by trainer based games.

Actually, something similar I've noticed that kills projects is, as I mentioned with programming, you learn more and thus realize how you can make something that is better. Well the same can go for writing. I'd say I wasn't seriously in the 'make adult game' mindset until about a year or so before finding F95 back in 2018, when I learned about and tried Princess Trainer by Akabur, it was the first adult game I seriously enjoyed, and it was the first game that showed me how great an adult game could be. While I experimented with 'trainer' type game mechanics for a good while, since then I've explored lots of ideas and projects, and one of the things that have killed projects for me is constantly changing my perspective on writing, and writing standards. Not just how well characters are written, but what I think is acceptable behavior, since I'm not a fan of rapy characters that pretend to be acceptable simply because its a porn game, so I'm always exploring character writing to be erotic without being... too off putting.

western RPG Maker games don't have much success ...

doesn't help that for a lot of early prototypes of a game, I've seen people use RPG maker as just an engine to deliever a VN, and the only mechanic they use is a walking mechanic, go to X room to talk to X to continue the story. aka Walking simulator 2022.

While doing something different in terms of gameplay need months of preparation.

Tell that to a new team of young dev's, who's jumping too deep on their first projects... but without alienating or intimidating them from trying because you enjoy this community and always want to see it and help it grow. ( ; u ; )

(Infer that any comment I didn't reply too is a comment I agreed with, but didn't feel I needed to contribute more to for the sake of a concise message.)

"Concept Oriented Abstract Design" would work as a name?

I love it! I debated calling it Abstract Oriented Design, but I felt that such a name was the exact opposite of the system's design, but that's based the definitions I've created for words such as 'abstract.' Since the concept mainly works by recognizing patterns of thinking, aka knowing how to abstract, and then taking abstractions and making them into what I call "technical literals" (aka make what we want to happen, happen). Basically, by my custom definition of terminology, the process is supposed to do the job of 'abstract thinking' and figures out how to put what you describe into a 'technical format' such as making C# code (just an example), so the users doesn't need to 'abstract' they can work with a less rigid 'conceptual form.'

Heck, there's even a TVtrops page related to this:

You must be registered to see the links

Then, reading various threads, I decided that the brain-teasing card battles game was still too much a distraction from the VN/RPG aspects, and I razed it down to the ground.

Sounds like it was an interesting project. It also sounds like it ended like some of my past ideas have ended, realizing that I've strayed too far from what the typical player will want/expect.

I've really wanted more interesting games, games that are actually games, but I know I am my own worste example, since I know I have the attention span of a dead squirrel, as there have been a few games I quite because i didn't want to learn the rules, play the mechanics, or learn its characters. I've experimented with ways to get around this small attention span issue, be it experiment with game mechanics, or game loops, or just pacing and story writing. So far I've ended on 3 possible solutions, its just spending time to complete a project using one that's yet to prove their potential. One solution is inspired by Orange trainer and other similar mission hub type mechanics, where there's a hub to interact with characters, and there is an area where you can go to start a 'mission,' with the idea that players can play around until they have a 'intrinsic' reason to play the mission, and you can be as mechanic heavy as you want because you know that the player will be in a 'play game' mindset not 'where are da boobies?' mindset. The other hypotheses solutions are hide the mechanics as part of the story/game progression (the only best example I have is an RPG adventure idea I had, but rather than using game mechanics, the RPG actually plays itself because its actually a card game, its just the cards control the adventure and the player just gets to go along for the ride, and make quest choices), or the last solution specifically for my small brain that doesn't like to read words, present story and characters using an animated or comic book format. it is very tedious and time consuming, but this is the format I've dedicated my art style to now that I've accepted that anything less than visual communication will for players with as small attention span as my own.

 

[anne O'nymous]

IMHO it doesn't really matter how much sense it makes, but how much this mechanics is integral to the game. In other words, if it's part of the deal the dev makes with the player.
In your "superspy" example above, if James Bond goes [...]
Now, if the baccarat scene, instead of being a self-contained minigame, [...]

You forgot an option, that would probably be more appreciated:
He goes to the casino to seduce new girls, playing cards is the medium he use for this, not his main goal. Therefore, it doesn't really matter if the player win or loose, in both case the MC have met the girl and started to flirt with her. If he win, it would make the game advance faster (because the MC have more money, and the player need to be rewarded for his victory), but loosing isn't a penalty ; "cards may have been against me tonight, but I'm still the luckiest man on Earth today, since I got to know you. I'm a little short right now, but promised, next time I'll pay you a champagne glass... What I say 'a glass', you deserve at least a full bottle." (Yeah, I know, cheesy as fuck)
This also open the gate for a "no mini-game" option for those who want it. You just replace the cards game by some of the renders made for it, and goes for a "MC won, but it was near to a draw" ending.

In my game, the Card Game was to simulate battles and other conflict-resolutions (like Persuasion, Stealth, etc).
[...]
Then, reading various threads, I decided that the brain-teasing card battles game was still too much a distraction from the VN/RPG aspects, and I razed it down to the ground.
Making it optional wasn't an option. It's not Gwent, it's part of the game mechanics.

Making it optional can still be an option.
I don't remember the name, but there's a game that have more or less the same approach than your initial idea ; you've a mini game to play when you want to be stealth. It's on by default, but for those who really don't want to play this, there's a "no mini-game" option, where you'll always succeed.
This being said, if you don't make it optional, I guess that there will always be a modder to do it for you. But, despite being one of those who would add this as main feature of my mod, it's not something that I recommend. It's always better when you do it yourself, because you're sure that it will be done correctly and that it will not risk to break the game.

I've always wanted to do a 'confidence' point system to upgrade character 'willingness' to do something or experiment, with maybe a second phase related to how much a character would considered doing something again, but this was inspired by trainer based games.

Same for me, but each time I go this way, I finally step back.
It's something really interesting, but it can really works only if the game is a pure sandbox one. If the game is story driven, you end being limited by the said story. Either the player will not have enough in game time to make the character fully accept all the kinks he want or, at the opposite, you plan enough time to "max all the stats", and the game will have a lot of dead times because the players will not want to max them all.
Plus, when the character will finally be shaped like the player want her, the story will be near to its end, and the player will not really have the time to appreciate her.

There's still an "in between" solution, something like the core mechanism of The DeLuca Family, where you click on a button quit the free roaming part and advance in the story. But it have flaws that you've to take care of:

• It need content for every period of the day, for the game to not feel empty ;
• It need more than one girl, for the game to not make you feel like you are harassing her ;
• It need a lot of scenes for each girls, for the game to not be too much on the grinding side ;
• It need unrelated content, for the game to not looks like a race for sex.

It's possible, HopesGaming did it with his game. But it's not something easy to do right, especially when you release your game by updates. Even with his game sometimes you feel the emptiness, and looks like you're harassing a girl, because there's only content for her in this update. It's something that will disappear once the game will be finished, but ideally you should plan your updates to limit this as much as possible ; since removing it totally is near to impossible.

Actually, something similar I've noticed that kills projects is, as I mentioned with programming, you learn more and thus realize how you can make something that is better. Well the same can go for writing.

I've tenth variations for the core mechanism for my "yes I'll do it one day, I swear" game, a dozen stories, some more advanced than others, and I don't count how many variations for a given character. What, honestly, don't help me to effectively do it one day, nor to have the time to works on it. Because, well, better finish this umpteenth version of the core mechanism, it will be easier to make the game when it will be done. This while, "wait, she would be a better character if she had more of 'this' trait, right ?"

doesn't help that for a lot of early prototypes of a game, I've seen people use RPG maker as just an engine to deliever a VN, and the only mechanic they use is a walking mechanic, go to X room to talk to X to continue the story. aka Walking simulator 2022.

They use RPG Maker to make a worse version of what could have been an interesting Ren'Py game. It's a shame, precisely because it could have been an interesting game ; perhaps average, but interesting.

Tell that to a new team of young dev's, who's jumping too deep on their first projects... but without alienating or intimidating them from trying because you enjoy this community and always want to see it and help it grow. ( ; u ; )

I've few team names that cross my mind reading this... And as many interesting games that are near to death since way too long, because the said teams didn't past three months thinking their project before they started it.
Once again it's a shame, especially when it's games like Ecchi Sensei.

(Infer that any comment I didn't reply too is a comment I agreed with, but didn't feel I needed to contribute more to for the sake of a concise message.)

It's another thing for which I gave up, I can't make concise message. And you too, you know it

 

[eugeneloza]

if there's any interest in adult games other than a VNs?

Yes, there is interest in complex games. No, this interest is very small compared to VNs or VN-likes (games with next-to-none gameplay, e.g. VNs made in RPGM). Just sort "Games" forum by views/replies, very few of games on the first 10 pages are non-VNs, and those are usually AA quality (like Carnal Instinct, which still can't compete with properly modded Skyrim).

EDIT: Of course, as usually I forget about Witcher

 

[DyingStar87]

which still can't compete with properly modded Skyrim

That's exactly what I meant. Everybody keep mentioning modded Skyrim (which I spent coutless of hours playing as well). Modded Skyrim is game at first place, with sexual content at second place, yet is still very popular, even after so many years. I think it's because it has its very own lore/universe, in comparison with games that are offering bunch of random characters you can have sex with. Player is still having his own adventure and on the side he can take slaves, have sex with them, train them, punish them...etc. Any game, no matter what good, gets repetitive or boring over time (that's a reason developers have started implementing mini games years ago). In modded Skyrim, if you get bored of adventure, you can simply go to get a bit of sexual adventure (and vice versa). Usually you would do that simply by playing 2 different games, one normal and one with adult content. I think that success of modded Skyrim lies in fact that it offers both options while keeping player in the same lore/universe.

 

[Houtamelo]

Hi everyone,

I've been wondering if there's any interest in adult games other than a VNs? I mean, with different, more complex game mechanics and game elements other than a sex (quests, exploration...etc.). Something like a classic RPG/Shooter game with story, where adult content is one of the game elements, rather than a main element. Romancing characters that player will meet during quests/exploration, complete quests to gain character's affection...etc. I know that everyone's taste is different, but what's your overall experience/knowledge?

There are tastes for all kinds of games, it just comes down to personal preference. F95's community is focused on VNs so you're going to see most people here prefer that style of games. However F95 does not nearly represent all the NSFW game community, many indeed enjoy games with more complex mechanics.

I see some people say that they don't even try games tagged with "Unity" or "Unreal", that is merely personal preference, I for one don't even bother with games made on Ren'py or tagged with "VN", they bore me to death.

Another note, don't be afraid to make your game hard, some people will come saying that porn games need to be easy because the gameplay is not the focus but those are usually the people only interested in the galleries. You can make hard games as long as they are fun, no one wants to play a game that is hard and boring of course. Ultimately you can always provide different difficulty options for those who aren't interested in engaging on your mechanics.

If you're interested in having a chat drop me a pm on discord: Houtamelo#8697