Narration vs seeing main protaganist's thoughts.

[hakarlman]

You can't help but accept the actions that are occurring.


"I can't believe this is happening."

I was wondering if you guys could share some feedback on this topic. When is there too much narration? When is there too much sharing of what's going on in the main protagonists head?

Would you guys mind sharing writing examples of what's acceptable vs what's annoying?

 

[srmagnavox]

I'm not into narration, but it's kind of personal. Just bothers me a lot!! I prefer to read the thoughts, sounds like i am "deeper" in the game, i don't know how to explain the exactly feeling.

 

[Conviction07]

Reading the MC’s thoughts I don’t really have a problem with. It makes sense at least. The problem is games that tell you what all the other characters are thinking too.

 

[freedom.call]

The only time I'm bothered by MC's thoughts is when he's thinking for what seems like 2 hours before saying something (when he's talking to someone).

Other than that I'm good.

 

[DarthSeduction]

You can't help but accept the actions that are occurring.


"I can't believe this is happening."

I was wondering if you guys could share some feedback on this topic. When is there too much narration? When is there too much sharing of what's going on in the main protagonists head?

Would you guys mind sharing writing examples of what's acceptable vs what's annoying?

I LOATH unnecessary narration. To the point where the artists on my games hate me.

If it can be shown, show it. If the MC is embarassed, pose him to make him/her to look embarassed.

Where you need narration is smells, sounds, abstract thoughts.

Here's an example of a dinner scene in one of my games. In this one I didn't communicate well with my artist, and as a result had to narrate more than I'd have liked.

Spoiler: Dinner Scene TTWDFL

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As you can see though, there's still not much narration. Now, a look at my other game, where I've been more consistent in my crusade against narration.

Spoiler: Morning Shower Scene Seraphim Academy

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Now, with that first one, you're not missing much. They were just sittting around a table telling a story. But the second one, from Seraphim, a good chunk of that story is being told while Alison and Eve take a shower, speaking to one another over the wall as they lather up. Then, out of no where you've got two characters who weren't there, again, no narration means you didn't know about them until they spoke, and you don't see the part where Sarah smacks Eve's ass.

I tell as much as my story as I can through images. If, and only if, I can't tell it visually do I give you narration.

 

[Volta]

Narration is just a tool like any other in storytelling, in a VN medium you should like, @DarthSeduction says,use the images to their fullest, just like you would expect in a comic book, however it isn't just a visual medium with words attached, like for example a play script, in which direction would take the place of narration, although that seems to be what @DarthSeduction is getting at, effectively giving good stage directions to the render monkeys.

It is neither a purely visual medium or a purely novel/written medium, i wouldn't expect to go an watch a play with 50%+ narration, or even 10%+ however if i wanted to read a novel i'd expect a lot of prose, hell some of my favourite novels, terry Pratchett springs to mind as the most obvious, uses a heap of what amounts to narration and the style of said narration and prose are a large part of what makes the book great.

So what i'm trying to say is "Narration Bad!" is IMO limiting yourself too much, use narration but don't EVER interrupt dialogue with it, it wrecks the flow, destroys the "feeling" in the scene and disconnects the viewer. Instead use it in the beginning to set the scene if you want, use at the end to explain time jumps or tedious journeys, actions or other "setup" stuff, use it in a scene to bridge two pieces together, use it to fill the holes a purely visual medium can't or explain things that are beyond the characters knowledge that prevent thought explanations. A VN is neither a play script, book, comic, game or film but can use elements of all of those, IMO narration is a valuable part of this, however it is or IMO should be a supporting part only, intended to facilitate the visuals, dialogue and pacing of the VN.

Just my two cents, i don't think there is a perfect answer here.

 

[thecardinal]

Great question.

Don't think there is a 'right' answer. But great narration can really make the world feel well-developed (like Depraved Awakening)

 

[DarthSeduction]

Great question.

Don't think there is a 'right' answer. But great narration can really make the world feel well-developed (like Depraved Awakening)

That is a great thing about the noir genre. The PI narrating to himself is the story format. Helps a lot for the person writing.

 

[W65]

I think I know the kind of game you're developing, OP, but I think you might get different answers depending on whether you're making a visual novel or some other kind of porn game, like an RPG or something. Might want to put that in the original post or in a reply.

I don't play actual VNs, so I don't have much to say on the subject. The little writing experience I have isn't in VNs or games at all, so I don't think I can add much else to the thread.

 

[HopesGaming]

I can't stand narrations when overused. In books it's fine. But in visual novels you have to leave a bit to the images too.

I have done a pure diagloue game with only the images and Mc inner thoughts. And so far it have received well on the story aspect. Well haven't heard anyone complain about it that is.

Narrations can fast look very ametoursish and out of place if done incorrectly. And unless you have some experience with writing - it's usually done incorrectly.

 

[GuyFreely]

In the project I'm working on, I've gone with inner thoughts. I think the idea of inner thoughts (of the MC) versus narration helps the player be more immersed. Take your example...

You can't help but accept the actions that are occurring.


"I can't believe this is happening."

Who is saying the first line? The narrator. Who is the narrator? It's some disembodied voice to explain things. The narrator isn't a character in the story. Having a narrator reminds you it's a story, takes you out of it to a degree. This is why some people use exposition. It's still somebody explaining things in a heavy handed way, but at least it's a character in the story. As was mentioned, the Noir genre often has the protagonist describing things, but at least it's not a separate narrator. Now the narrator can be a character, like in The Stanley Parable (which is great) but that's an exception. It's a sort of meta storytelling method.

I also agree that the MC shouldn't know the thoughts of other characters (unless you are psychic I guess). As a writer, you should absolutely know how other characters think and feel in a situation, but the MC shouldn't just magically know. If you want the MC to know, the other character has to express it in some way. Verbally, facial expression, posture, etc. Again, this isn't a hard and fast rule. You sometimes want the player to know things the MC doesn't necessarily know. So you might have a scene where the MC isn't even there, just to give the player some insight. That's a stylistic choice though. It can create a situation where the MC acts on what the MC knows even if the player knows more, which can be awkward, but it's kind of minor.

 

[LewdCatgirl]

Main protagonist's thoughts works better ... if the thoughts of the protagonist coincide with the thoughts or fantasies of the reader.

So narration can be a safer bet for appealing to a wider audience.

 

[GuyFreely]

Main protagonist's thoughts works better ... if the thoughts of the protagonist coincide with the thoughts or fantasies of the reader.

So narration can be a safer bet for appealing to a wider audience.

Well, I think this gets into the two major types of main characters. The one where the MC is a shell for the player to fill or the MC is a person the player makes decisions for. In the case of the MC just being the representation of the player in the story, you don't have to say what the MC is thinking, because the player is thinking it. In the case where the author has an idea of the type of person the MC is without the player's influence, then you can give that feedback to the player in thoughts.

I think a good example (and often bad example) of this is corruption games. A typical player of a corruption style game will make the MC very slutty from the start. If there's an opportunity for sex and debauchery, they will take it. However, the whole point of the corruption game is that the MC starts from some more innocent personality and slowly turns slutty (or whatever). So you often have the MC thinking "I can't believe I'm doing this." or something similar to clue the player into the level of corruption. Near the end of the game, the thoughts will likely be more along the lines of "I can't wait to start fucking."

 

[DarthSeduction]

Well, I think this gets into the two major types of main characters. The one where the MC is a shell for the player to fill or the MC is a person the player makes decisions for. In the case of the MC just being the representation of the player in the story, you don't have to say what the MC is thinking, because the player is thinking it. In the case where the author has an idea of the type of person the MC is without the player's influence, then you can give that feedback to the player in thoughts.

I think a good example (and often bad example) of this is corruption games. A typical player of a corruption style game will make the MC very slutty from the start. If there's an opportunity for sex and debauchery, they will take it. However, the whole point of the corruption game is that the MC starts from some more innocent personality and slowly turns slutty (or whatever). So you often have the MC thinking "I can't believe I'm doing this." or something similar to clue the player into the level of corruption. Near the end of the game, the thoughts will likely be more along the lines of "I can't wait to start fucking."

Yes. I meant to address this in my first post, but spent so much time coloring the text so that it all made sense that I forgot to make this point.

A game, especially in the life sim format where the MC is supposed to be a blank slate for us to project onto, should have little to no input. A game that does this quite well, imo, is Harem Hotel, which doesn't have the MC speak, pretty much at all, his lines are all in the form of the choices he makes.

That said, this can be a bit limiting. You have to be careful to explain what the MC is doing to deserve where he is. With Harem Hotel, I admit the girls kinda throw themselves at him, however, he does have to work for it to an extent. He has to buy them things, he has to take them places to raise affection. He has to start small and train to do certain actions, etc. The girls are into him, this is true, but it does still feel like he works for it.

 

[LewdCatgirl]

One middle ground option is to have the user choose dialogue, including internal mental dialogue.

 

[DarthSeduction]

One middle ground option is to have the user choose dialogue, including internal mental dialogue.

I agree with this, on the caveat that it matters. If a choice isn't linked to a variable of some kind, nor does it create a branch, then why is it there?

 

[DownTheDrain]

I enjoy good narration, probably because I used to read a lot.
It becomes a problem when there is an overabundance of it, or when English isn't exactly the strong suit of the developer, but if you're a decent writer go ahead.

Internal monologues are trickier for me, or maybe I haven't seen them done well that often. If it's vital to convey something that can't be expressed otherwise then sure, but please don't make the protagonist go "OMG, that's so hot!" or some such. That adds absolutely nothing.
Let the player be the judge of how hot it is, or how they can't believe something is happening.