Need help with making renders look better and more realistic

BitingTheBullet

AMJA
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Apr 9, 2018
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I've been getting my hands into daz lately and wanted to know how to make these renders pop more and seem more realistic.
I've already done some work in photoshop and adjusted colour, contrast, brightness etc. and I've tried quite a few lighting angles of which these seemed nice.
Let me know what I can do and I'll maybe post an updated render based on those suggestions.



PostProcess2.jpg PostProcess3.jpg PostProcess4.jpg PostProcess5.jpg PostProcess6.jpg
 

Synx

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Jul 30, 2018
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Those renders aren't bad, I have seen a lot worse from people that just started. That said, there are still a couple parts I would look at:
1) The face expressions are off putting. In every picture where the teeth are showing she comes across as a complete maniac. The smile is very unnatural/fake looking. She looks alright in the third picture (a bit cross-eyed but that's it) and the last one, but the smile/teeth showing could really use some help.

2) The lightning doesn't match the background in most pictures. The first one there seems to be a massive light in front of her somewhere, but there isn't an actual light located there. Besides the reflection in the wall and the mirror makes it seem that it's a picture during the day (blue reflection), while the lightning in the scene itself seems to be all artificial from the lamps. It doesn't matchup.

In the two evenings picks the character is way to over lid (unless somebody is taking a picture with flash). The whole background is a bit darker with a yellow evening tone,

3) The hair looks like it's being blown to the side which works fine when its outside, but doesn't make much sense when she is in inside in her own bathroom.

Besides those there are a fair amount of stuff that makes the pictures look 'fake' because of DAZ and the assets you are using, more thsn the render setup. The skin is to 'perfect' for it to be realistic, the mirror/whole bathroom is to clean, the pantyhose is to perfect, the skirt in the laying on the grass picture is unnatural stiff (the sides wouldn't really stick out that much), the grass is complete flat, etc. All parts that can be fixed, but require a shit ton of work and knowledge about DAZ, Iray renderer, and texturing painting.
 

BitingTheBullet

AMJA
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Apr 9, 2018
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I'll adjust the changes you recommended and post an update when I'm done with em.
And forgot to ask before but do the ass and tits look fine or can you tell at first glace that they're overdone?
Thanks for the points.
 

Techn0magier

Well-Known Member
Jul 2, 2017
1,219
4,502
Synx already pointed out a lot of stuff. So I try not to repeat too much.
First things first, there are different kinds of realism. Most people are thinking about or even , so I assume, that this is the case here too.
When you want to achieve a photorealistic image, then there are four building blocks, that need to be used properly to avoid the uncanny valley, and your bad luck is, that living beings in general and humans, in particular, are the hardest things to render photorealistic from a human perspective.

The four Building blocks are.
1.) The Model: You need a high-quality, model with realistic proportions in the first place. And those correct proportions have to be on every level of detail, starter by the silhouette down to the golden ratio of the face. A cartoony figure can only result in a cartoony image. The human face is the one thing next to genitals, that the human mind processes as fast as nothing else. No thinking involved, just pure instinct decides if we think that the thing in front of us is a digital puppet or a real human on a photograph. So bad gestures and body poses can somewhat be compensated, a bad facial expression can't.

2.) The Materials/Textures and surfaces: Good looking materials have to behave properly. A metal never has a coloured reflection, a water surface is never flat etc. (The key here are normal maps, colours, different layers on surfaces, displacement and imperfections.)

3.) The Light: A realistic image needs a realistic lighting setup. You can have Disney MCU level of hard- and software when you place the sun below the heroes while they stand on the ground, you will just get an ugly image. Light has certain attributes that need to take into consideration. Soft vs. hard light, the colour temperature of light sources, fall off. Just to name a few.

4.) Camera behaviour and postprocessing: Last and considered by some schools of thought also the least. I think it is as important as the other three. You said you worked your images in PS. Why? Also, what kind of camera did you want to recreate? The term photo isn't in photorealism for nothing. There are lense distortions, lens flares, chromatic operations etc. Those effects are often built-in within the postwork process. Some effects can be done while rendering, depending on the render engine. As a rule of thumb, you can say, every effect a photographer want to remove from his/her picture, a CGI photorealist wants to build into the image. Renders a crisp sharp all over the place, a real photograph has the depth of field. A CGI cam stays perfectly still, a photo camera doesn't, even with a tripod.
 

BitingTheBullet

AMJA
Game Developer
Apr 9, 2018
487
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Those renders aren't bad, I have seen a lot worse from people that just started. That said, there are still a couple parts I would look at:
1) The face expressions are off putting. In every picture where the teeth are showing she comes across as a complete maniac. The smile is very unnatural/fake looking. She looks alright in the third picture (a bit cross-eyed but that's it) and the last one, but the smile/teeth showing could really use some help.

2) The lightning doesn't match the background in most pictures. The first one there seems to be a massive light in front of her somewhere, but there isn't an actual light located there. Besides the reflection in the wall and the mirror makes it seem that it's a picture during the day (blue reflection), while the lightning in the scene itself seems to be all artificial from the lamps. It doesn't matchup.

In the two evenings picks the character is way to over lid (unless somebody is taking a picture with flash). The whole background is a bit darker with a yellow evening tone,

3) The hair looks like it's being blown to the side which works fine when its outside, but doesn't make much sense when she is in inside in her own bathroom.

Besides those there are a fair amount of stuff that makes the pictures look 'fake' because of DAZ and the assets you are using, more thsn the render setup. The skin is to 'perfect' for it to be realistic, the mirror/whole bathroom is to clean, the pantyhose is to perfect, the skirt in the laying on the grass picture is unnatural stiff (the sides wouldn't really stick out that much), the grass is complete flat, etc. All parts that can be fixed, but require a shit ton of work and knowledge about DAZ, Iray renderer, and texturing painting.
Here's an Update to what you suggested.
I've used different skin maps and used natural lighting from the HDRI. Also toned down and readjusted the smile so it looks less psychotic and more natural.
I ended the render early which is why the eyes and shadows at the tank top looks pixelated/jagged.
Update.jpg
 

BitingTheBullet

AMJA
Game Developer
Apr 9, 2018
487
1,746
Synx already pointed out a lot of stuff. So I try not to repeat too much.
First things first, there are different kinds of realism. Most people are thinking about or even , so I assume, that this is the case here too.
When you want to achieve a photorealistic image, then there are four building blocks, that need to be used properly to avoid the uncanny valley, and your bad luck is, that living beings in general and humans, in particular, are the hardest things to render photorealistic from a human perspective.

The four Building blocks are.
1.) The Model: You need a high-quality, model with realistic proportions in the first place. And those correct proportions have to be on every level of detail, starter by the silhouette down to the golden ratio of the face. A cartoony figure can only result in a cartoony image. The human face is the one thing next to genitals, that the human mind processes as fast as nothing else. No thinking involved, just pure instinct decides if we think that the thing in front of us is a digital puppet or a real human on a photograph. So bad gestures and body poses can somewhat be compensated, a bad facial expression can't.

2.) The Materials/Textures and surfaces: Good looking materials have to behave properly. A metal never has a coloured reflection, a water surface is never flat etc. (The key here are normal maps, colours, different layers on surfaces, displacement and imperfections.)

3.) The Light: A realistic image needs a realistic lighting setup. You can have Disney MCU level of hard- and software when you place the sun below the heroes while they stand on the ground, you will just get an ugly image. Light has certain attributes that need to take into consideration. Soft vs. hard light, the colour temperature of light sources, fall off. Just to name a few.

4.) Camera behaviour and postprocessing: Last and considered by some schools of thought also the least. I think it is as important as the other three. You said you worked your images in PS. Why? Also, what kind of camera did you want to recreate? The term photo isn't in photorealism for nothing. There are lense distortions, lens flares, chromatic operations etc. Those effects are often built-in within the postwork process. Some effects can be done while rendering, depending on the render engine. As a rule of thumb, you can say, every effect a photographer want to remove from his/her picture, a CGI photorealist wants to build into the image. Renders a crisp sharp all over the place, a real photograph has the depth of field. A CGI cam stays perfectly still, a photo camera doesn't, even with a tripod.
yea I watched blenderguru's video on this and read some docs from DreamLight Studio. I think for me to get a grip on photorealism I need to learn from constructive feedback so I can adjust and see the changes myself. Otherwise I'm just gonna fool myself and get deluded. For the bathroom render It was taking too long so i just decided to render the bathroom first and then the model. Then I just merged the layers in PS and i assume it might be the reason why lighting looks so fake in it.
 

Finsit

Harder Better Faster Cheater
Game Developer
Jun 2, 2017
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Here's an Update to what you suggested.
I've used different skin maps and used natural lighting from the HDRI. Also toned down and readjusted the smile so it looks less psychotic and more natural.
I ended the render early which is why the eyes and shadows at the tank top looks pixelated/jagged.
View attachment 739874
How about rendering smaller images ?
It's like drawing, the smaller the image is the easier it is to get the lesser amount of detail right.

At 25% the image looks way better than even 40%.


Also you need to get yourself a better teeth materials. Tooth enamel is quite shiny and have slight color variation and also subsurface variations as cracks breaks the materiel homogeneity.



I also have some issues with the skin bumpiness. It does convey a suntan aging vibe that would I think indeed means a less smooth skin, but here on her right upper chest it is a bit too much considering the differences in tan between her face and shoulders and right under her collarbone.

I guess the lack of render time is also not helping on that.



Oh and skylining the hair is generally not a smart move as the amount of hair strands is way too low. Here the asset creator tried but it not nearly enough to pass inspection at more than around 20% zoom.

Also beware when putting hands in hair, it is a clipping fest.
 

BitingTheBullet

AMJA
Game Developer
Apr 9, 2018
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How about rendering smaller images ?
It's like drawing, the smaller the image is the easier it is to get the lesser amount of detail right.

At 25% the image looks way better than even 40%.


Also you need to get yourself a better teeth materials. Tooth enamel is quite shiny and have slight color variation and also subsurface variations as cracks breaks the materiel homogeneity.



I also have some issues with the skin bumpiness. It does convey a suntan aging vibe that would I think indeed means a less smooth skin, but here on her right upper chest it is a bit too much considering the differences in tan between her face and shoulders and right under her collarbone.

I guess the lack of render time is also not helping on that.



Oh and skylining the hair is generally not a smart move as the amount of hair strands is way too low. Here the asset creator tried but it not nearly enough to pass inspection at more than around 20% zoom.

Also beware when putting hands in hair, it is a clipping fest.
I'll make an update on what you suggested and post it when I'm done.

I render images at 4K because I really like the sharpness of specific things like hair and eyelashes. I don't mind putting in more work to make them pop out more unless I'm using low poly materials or assets, in which case i'll render them separately at lower res and merge the in PS.

I thought the hair was pretty good but you said its decent so I'll try changing it with something better if I can find one.

Also i think the bumpiness comes from me using the denoiser feature in daz which i'm mainly using for quick renders right now. I'll see if it still persists without it and tune it if it does.
Thanks
 
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79flavors

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Firstly, I occasionally play with DAZ... by which I mean, usually just long enough to realize I have no clue what I'm doing.

However, one tutorial I found very useful was about creating a realistic portrait.
... and that was because of how it highlighted the importance of lighting.

The key rules apply both to rendering and real world photography/stage/video... and the approach seems to be to use "3-point" or "4-point" lighting. The tutorial shows the effects of that style of lighting, without actually mentioning it directly. One point I found particularly insightful was the idea of coloring the "fill light" to match the color tint of the objects in that direction (grass=green, brick wall=red/brown, etc).

Whilst the tutorial is very specific in it's goals (too specific really), it may help with general lighting ideas.
https://f95zone.to/threads/create-a-realistic-portrait-in-daz-studio-videos.22733/

I also found this image for 3-point lighting... it's simple enough for my tastes and points out that each light should be different brightnesses.

3point-lighting.jpg

4 point lighting seems to be about lighting the background too. You'd probably need to do more reading than I did.

The reason I mention lighting specifically is that each of your pictures feature very sharp shadows. The 5th picture can be excused for that and the 3rd is probably the most natural to my untrained eye... but the others... I dunno... seem off.

I agree with the comment above though... you're already way ahead of the usual curve for render results... it just needs a little tweaking.
 

recreation

pure evil!
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Here's an Update to what you suggested.
I've used different skin maps and used natural lighting from the HDRI. Also toned down and readjusted the smile so it looks less psychotic and more natural.
I ended the render early which is why the eyes and shadows at the tank top looks pixelated/jagged.
View attachment 739874
Where have I seen that skin before? :unsure: :illuminati:
The pixelation doesn't stem from stopping the render early, it's because of the subdivision, or more precisely, the lack of.
If you select the model, or in this cas I presume it's the top, go to parameters tab, and have a look at "Mesh Resolution" and if Resolution Level is set to base, look if you have the option to set it to high resolution, if not, go to edit -> figure -> geometry -> Convert to SubD. Then you should be able to set it to high resolution and that should fix it.
Btw, the skin is a lot better then the g3 base skin, but there are far better skins out there...at least when it comes to shader... I should probably rework this one some day...
 
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BitingTheBullet

AMJA
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Apr 9, 2018
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Firstly, I occasionally play with DAZ... by which I mean, usually just long enough to realize I have no clue what I'm doing.

However, one tutorial I found very useful was about creating a realistic portrait.
... and that was because of how it highlighted the importance of lighting.

The key rules apply both to rendering and real world photography/stage/video... and the approach seems to be to use "3-point" or "4-point" lighting. The tutorial shows the effects of that style of lighting, without actually mentioning it directly. One point I found particularly insightful was the idea of coloring the "fill light" to match the color tint of the objects in that direction (grass=green, brick wall=red/brown, etc).

Whilst the tutorial is very specific in it's goals (too specific really), it may help with general lighting ideas.
https://f95zone.to/threads/create-a-realistic-portrait-in-daz-studio-videos.22733/

I also found this image for 3-point lighting... it's simple enough for my tastes and points out that each light should be different brightnesses.

View attachment 740575

4 point lighting seems to be about lighting the background too. You'd probably need to do more reading than I did.

The reason I mention lighting specifically is that each of your pictures feature very sharp shadows. The 5th picture can be excused for that and the 3rd is probably the most natural to my untrained eye... but the others... I dunno... seem off.

I agree with the comment above though... you're already way ahead of the usual curve for render results... it just needs a little tweaking.
This should help a lot for indoor scenes. Thanks
 

BitingTheBullet

AMJA
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Apr 9, 2018
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Where have I seen that skin before? :unsure: :illuminati:
The pixelation doesn't stem from stopping the render early, it's because of the subdivision, or more precisely, the lack of.
If you select the model, or in this cas I presume it's the top, go to parameters tab, and have a look at "Mesh Resolution" and if Resolution Level is set to base, look if you have the option to set it to high resolution, if not, go to edit -> figure -> geometry -> Convert to SubD. Then you should be able to set it to high resolution and that should fix it.
Btw, the skin is a lot better then the g3 base skin, but there are far better skins out there...at least when it comes to shader... I should probably rework this one some day...
I honestly think the skin is really nice and actually has improved the realism aspect so its kinda crazy to hear you can make it even better.
Resolution is already set to High. The base and normal bumps were set to 1 and .15 respectively. I toned them down to 0.5 and .05
I'm pretty sure the pixelation is a result of using the denoise feature in the render settings tab under filtering.
 

recreation

pure evil!
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I honestly think the skin is really nice and actually has improved the realism aspect so its kinda crazy to hear you can make it even better.
That was just my first approach with the skin, and I actually did a lot of stuff wrong there^^

I'm pretty sure the pixelation is a result of using the denoise feature in the render settings tab under filtering.
we're talking about the shadows here right?
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that's definitely not from the denoizer, it's SubD. I guess it's gen3 so subd should be at lvl 1 or 2, try setting it to 4 or 5.
 

BitingTheBullet

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That was just my first approach with the skin, and I actually did a lot of stuff wrong there^^


we're talking about the shadows here right?
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that's definitely not from the denoizer, it's SubD. I guess it's gen3 so subd should be at lvl 1 or 2, try setting it to 4 or 5.
Thought you meant the bump on upper-right collarbone as finsit mentioned before.

I fixed the issue with pixelated shadows on the top.
It's made for gen8 and was simply a matter of material. Changed it with another iray suede shader and it isn't jagged anymore.
 
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BitingTheBullet

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Here's another update with the following changes:

Different hair with more strands.
Toned down on the normal and base bumps for the torso.
Applied some light creases to skin folds.
Changed teeth material (but it still looks like chalk).
Changed the tank top material from knitted to suede which fixed the pixelation from before.

Like last time, I ended the render earlier but you can still get a general idea of the final product (eyes still pixelated though). Update 2.jpg
 

Synx

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The hair looks to fake in this one, like it's completely can sprayed with hairspray to get it super stiff. Otherwise it wouldn't stay in that shape. The ends of the hair would clump together more on top than hang next to her like that.

As for the teeth they need a bit of shine as teeth are always a bit wet. Some glossiness or specular would properly improve it a fair amount.

The skin looks a lot better. I would personally reduce the redness a bit overall (especially on the chin, nose, and cheakbones), but it's not bad.

The face expression still has some maniac feel to me. I can't really put my finger on what exactly is causing it, but there's something wrong with the smile.
 

rev2020

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Oct 16, 2019
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The face expression still has some maniac feel to me. I can't really put my finger on what exactly is causing it,
its only the mounth that is smiling not the eyes.
thats how i see it.

the face could also be more female looking
quite masculine face and jaw on this model

one tip is to raise the brows some
this low is an angry womans face ;)

and DOF with HDRIs doesnt work well.
the complete hdri image gets blurred even up close,which causes the caracter to look pasted into the enviroment.
better leave DOF off for HDRIs then add some haze at the distance in PS afterwards.

you can also start to work with canvases for more control of lights and dof
every renderer looks better with the beauty canvas compared to the standard images.
canvases uses 32bit colors

Edit: about really narrow DOF
most lenses with this narrow DOF f/1.2 f/1.4 also have some degree of vignetting to them
easy to add in the rendering settings.
vignetting of 10-20 looks great with DOF.
vignetting also makes the caracter to be more in focus in the image.
 
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Deleted member 1121028

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I don't think 3-point lighting is a good advice for photo realism. A single light source should do a better job most of the time, imo. Problem with realism is that it can't be achieved without consistency. You add small details by small details to create an illusion, but one of them too off putting and it breaks the whole thing.

As other say you need quality assets in every departments : environments, props, skin, model, eyebrows, eyes, hairs, clothes and so on. Everything should be chosen wisely not just for aesthetical taste (quality of base textures, normal map, disp. maps, HD moprhs...). Making a real natural pose also require a lot(!) of back and forth. Pushing SubD (3 minimum) should help for facial expression, powerpose can come handy for that. A good understanding of how iray shader works, especially SSS, is rather critical for any skin. Tone mapping can play a huge role : Burn highlights, Crush blacks, Saturation, Gamma & Spectral rendering can drastically change how a render/skin looks.

EDIT: Looking at my old iray folder, found an old render I done while testing back hair. Not photorealist and it's quite overdone, but an example of tone-mapping with desatured low-gamma, low burn highlights and high crush with spectral rendering.

lolipop.png
 
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BitingTheBullet

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After being busy for the past few days I managed to work little by little and have come up with these renders using the advises given.
I've used low poly models of real people that were scanned mainly for "filler" purposes. The Models look really nice from a certain range but upclose is where you can see they're slightly blurry.

I've used the lighting of the HDRI as ambience lighting and also used multiple point lights for mainly highlighting the Gen8 features. I realise that the lighting is somewhat strong but toning it down led the figure to become dark skinned despite using light skin colours. Might be a bug or maybe I should use different light sources.

Added Vignette to images.

Also I've set glossiness to teeth to the max and it still doesn't have the wet shine like in real life. I'm using Alternative Jaws and Teeth but its not much different from normal. I'm contemplating whether to just change the shader to plastic and then change the colour and glossiness.


Ended renders early and decided to downscale the images this time to 1080p.
Downscale1.jpg Downscale2.jpg
 
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