New to VN development

[Zavrex]

So I’m finally ripping off the bandaid and wanting to get into interactive VN development myself. I’ve been very inspired by games like Monster Girl Quest and Corruption of Champions to mention a couple. There’s other games as well more on the RPG side of things involving RPGMaker that I eventually want to get into, but want to focus on the VN genre first. I’m finally at a point in my life that I have excess time to devote to learning a skill that I’ve been wanting to learn for years. I’ve done very little coding back in college, but I still consider myself a beginner, not novice, but off the street beginner.

Basically I want to ask for recommendations, on program and code, that I should invest my time in. I want to be sure that this program has the potential to create titles I previously mentioned. I don’t expect to be able to make anything of that caliber in anytime soon, or even in months, I want to keep my perspective realistic as I want to learn coding as well and know that is an overwhelming time commitment.

I seen Twine, Quest, and Ren’Py. I’m leaning towards Ren’Py currently (more so now seeing all the Ren’Py tags) and Python 3 for coding. Would Ren’Py be the best option that would potentially allow me to create works like CoC and MGQ? Other recommendations?

I appreciate the time anyone gives!

 

[Rich]

Ren'py is one of those packages where you can do just about anything if you dig far enough into it. You'll find simple VN's and complex sandbox games implemented with it. IMHO, it's reasonably easy to get going in it, particularly if you have any programming background at all. (Just for basic concepts like variables, branches, etc.) Even if you don't there are plenty of places you can learn from. Also, it's possible to "decompile" existing games to figure out "how did they do that."

I don't have experience with Twine or Quest. I have used Unity, and can tell you that Ren'py is a lot easier to get started with than it.

Bottom line, there are enough Ren'py programmers around both here and the official forum over on Lemmasoft that you shouldn't have trouble finding people to ask when you want to know something.

That's my $0.02.

Also, not that you need to start with much Python in a VN, but Ren'py's Python 3 support is relatively recent, and there might be some rough edges. On the other hand, the difference between 2.7 and 3.x isn't necessarily significant until you get into more hardcore Python than just "set this variable" one-liners. (I'm still using the 2.7 version for all my projects, despite being a heavy user of Python 3 in my professional life. There will come a point where I'll upgrade, but there are very few Python 3 features that I lament not being available yet in Ren'py.)

 

[Jamleng]

Not fully directed at you but more of a general message for others that are interested in making a game.

I often read or get questions: "I want or going to make a game myself and I'm going to make tons of cash money."
At first glance that might be a good idea but in reality, it's not that simple.

Competing with loads of other games is difficult and that's why I personally think a game can only succeed as long as you're in it for the fun, bring something unique to the table, and most importantly are not in it to make money.

I don't think tags/engine used matter that much because there is something for everybody out there. They are also not really the first things you have to worry about since there are many other aspects that you kind of need to learn first.
Aside from that, the most important aspect is that you need to like what you're making, have some skills/creativity and that everything surrounding the game is good which most first games rarely are.

Coding:
Starting out to make your own game takes some serious effort. Start by figuring out/coding in Renpy(Python) or another engine but those are generally more difficult to work with or lacking in options for various reasons. I would just start with small stuff, like a very small story or even random text, then make images and dialogue text appear. From there you can build something bigger.

Renders/animations:
Download a program like DAZ/Koikatsu/Honey Select or something and start creating characters and scenes. The learning curve is not that big for basic use but it will end up being the most time-consuming process of them all by far, double the amount of work if you want to stand out from other games.
Making your own art or having an artist do the work for you is even better but probably not possible because of the cost or time.

Writing:
Stories, character development, worldbuilding, and all of that take some serious thought, effort, reworks, rereading, etc.
I am fairly good at it but it's been my biggest weakness ever since I started creating my game. I acknowledged this and got very lucky by finding a partner that helps me out tremendously, especially on the writing part.

***This excludes many other time sinks like photoshop/music/sound/social media/learning/uploading/bug-fixing/play-testing and lots of other stuff.

Conclusion:
It might look easy but it takes some serious effort studying to create games without any knowledge, lots of trial and error, and again, time, lots and lots of time. In fact, all of your time. I'm thousands of hours in and still learning new stuff regularly. Nonetheless, give it a go if since there's never something wrong with learning new things. Just realize that if you want to make a game, be prepared to lose all of your free time and a part of your sanity. It's A LOT of work.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Conclusion:
It might look easy but it takes some serious effort studying to create games without any knowledge, lots of trial and error, and again, time, lots and lots of time. In fact, all of your time. I'm thousands of hours in and still learning new stuff regularly. Nonetheless, give it a go if since there's never something wrong with learning new things. Just realize that if you want to make a game, be prepared to lose all of your free time and a part of your sanity. It's A LOT of work.

I'll add my two cents:

It take near to the same amount of efforts and time even if you've the knowledge. It's just that you don't have to pass by the "I need to study how to do this" step. But none should believe that, once you've the knowledge, it will be a piece of cake.
Time to time, we hear about this or that author, who wrote this marvelous book in "just one month". It's never just one month. The story was in his mind for years, and slowly grown before he start writing. And when he started writing, it was for 10, if not more, hours by day, every day for a whole month, without being disturbed a single time and with the food coming to him.
And obviously, making a game isn't limited to writing...

 

[Zavrex]

I really do appreciate everyone’s time to give their thoughts, all well thought out and detailed nonetheless. So basically Ren’Py/Python does of the potential to create games like MGQ and CoC then.

As with the other feedback, obviously I’m not going to sit here and say “Oh I know I know.” cause I don’t know. I don’t know how long or how much investment it will take, or how hard it is. I like to think that “I understand” what is required instead. If I get deep into this and do well maybe I’ll consider making money in the future, but that’s why I didn’t bring it up initially cause I do want to do this for fun primarily. I want to learn and make random things for myself and put together a portfolio of sorts as I continue to develop my skills.

As for the time thing, as I mentioned I do want to keep my perspective realistic as possible. I already believed that it would be a huge time commitment hence why I put off doing this for years. I’m at a point where I have hours where I’m on my ass playing games throughout the night (night shift worker 12 hour days 2 on 2 off 3 day weekends every other weekend) like 8 plus hours on my days off. Because of my work schedule and where I’m personally at in my life, I can finally give the time requirement to actually develop a skill I’ve been wanting to develop for so long. Did I think it would be VN development back in college, of course not, it was just generic coding I was interested in. It was the games I’ve played and enjoyed that has tied in to my desire to code for years.

It was always an interest, but just didn’t have the time basically. Doing this for fun primarily up and foremost, as I’m not even concerned about making great works others had made as I just don’t have skill to obviously. As I learn I want to develop very small and simple VNs and maybe put together said portfolio so I can look back to over time to see my growth over time. Above all, keep my expectations realistic and understand that this will take an immense amount of time.

So ya, Ren’Py and Python are tools that can teach me how to make previously mentioned titles then. As long as I know it’s possible then I’m happy with that as I want to focus on one engine and coding primarily first so I’m not too overwhelmed. Once I get a good grip of it I can maybe look into other skills like HTML?

Any other thoughts, feedback, tools and guides is tremendously appreciated!

 

[Zavrex]

Decided to go with Ren'Py / Python.

Starting it now actually, gonna start with this "Tutorial" project and whenever I'm done with the initial tutorials I will look for other guides and whatnot.

Maybe I'll revisit this thread in the future and give an update in a few months. Got my coffee brewed, got a nice stormy weather 10hr vid in the background, wish me luck!

 

[Jamleng]

Decided to go with Ren'Py / Python.

Starting it now actually, gonna start with this "Tutorial" project and whenever I'm done with the initial tutorials I will look for other guides and whatnot.

Maybe I'll revisit this thread in the future and give an update in a few months. Got my coffee brewed, got a nice stormy weather 10hr vid in the background, wish me luck!

Good luck and take it easy, Rome wasn't built in one day either.

I haven't needed any tutorials for a few years now but back then I learned quite a bit from the following ones:

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And all the ones from

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this game creator.

If you're stuck somewhere the Lemmasoft forums are great for help and obviously, the website of Renpy itself (

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) but before you go there, I'd reckon to get some basic understanding first through those tutorials.

 

[Eezergoode]

To re-hash some of what was said earlier, it isn't going to happen overnight. I've started working on my own game(s) but keep having to put things on hold due to outside issues, the specifics of which aren't important. I have, at times, been able to sit down and write several thousand words of the story in one day, one sitting even, BUT, that isn't normal.

Unless you want to go right out of the gate with something complex, like open world or RPG battle mechanics, you don't actually need much programming to write a game in Ren'Py, although understanding the LOGIC of programming can be very helpful.

My suggestion, watch a few tutorials on youtube. Many of them may be out of date, but it will still give you a general idea of what you are getting into.

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has some good stuff for a straight VN, Thundorn over at

You must be registered to see the links

has some decent ones for a more open-world free-roam approach. There are a ton more, as well.

I didn't notice you mentioning anything about the visuals/art, so I don't have much advice for that, but it is a huge part of a good VN. There are also some great tutorials on there for different art resources for a VN, even for those of us who are not the most artistically inclined. If you are smarter than I am, or more talented, DAZ is a decent choice, at least for a beginner. And there are a TON of tutorials for that. I'm using it myself, but I'm still working on lighting issues. But that's more from walking away from it for months at a time due to RL time issues, and less about it actually being hard/difficult. Well, that, and I am artistically challenged.

All that being said, good luck! Keep us updated on your progress, and don't be afraid to ask for advice/help, there are a lot of good knowledgeable people here, just make sure you ignore the trolls who pop in now and then

 

[Zavrex]

Thank you guys so much for the guides and luck.

Ya, I didn't mention anything about visuals initially as I'm trying to focus on one thing at a time. Even my first attempts of making personal VNs aren't what I want to make down the line, but doing so just to get the handle on the fundamentals.

Took me a few hours, like 6 hours, but I made a very barebones VN after going through the RenPy tutorial a few times. Imported stock images, a few background scenes, a couple of bgm for play music, some sound effects to trigger, and various paths the player can take based on the choices they make when prompted. Essentially it's a short experience, with 2 endings based on said choices, takes a few runs to get all the dialogue.

The code is sloppy and basic, but that's the point. Starting small as I don't expect to get everything overnight, completely agree with that.

Now I'm going through Elaine's YT tutorial and will be coding as she does to learn more of the more novice-intermediate things of Ren'py / Python. Especially those if statements and the $ meaning. I'll include a couple of shots of code of that VN I made, I'll definitely improve my organizational skills in time lol, but it works and is playable.

Currently using ATOM for the text editor, unless anyone else recommends something better.

Thank you again for all your help guys, awesome community!

 

[8InchFloppyDick]

Sorry to be late with my 0.02 credits... Frankly, if somebody wants to embark on their first VN and they've had any exposure to coding, meaning they understand the concept of a variable and the use the if-statement, they'll have 'coded' their first Ren'Py-based VN scaffold in a weekend. For the most part, the 'Tutorial' thing that comes with Ren'Py is good enough to get started. The online documentation is complete but often really hard to understand if you're just starting out.

Personally, I find that the Ren'Py Screens/Styles/UI stuff hurts my brain a little. So, for any first efforts I'd suggest just concentrating on the story and its visual assets, rather than 'improving' Ren'Py's stock VN interface. Like Jamleng and Eezergoode said, Story and Art are going to be the biggest time sink and challenge for any one-person VN team.

Anyhow, welcome to the club and best of luck with your storytelling

 

[jamdan]

Here are a few tutorial channels:

Renpy:

You must be registered to see the links

- This one has easy to understand UI stuff.

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- Another easy to understand channel. This person also has a Daz channel I'll post below if you're interested.

You must be registered to see the links

- Only 3 videos, but they're pretty solid. Slim is also a pretty big-ish developer who has an account on here.

You must be registered to see the links

- A newer channel, has a mix of simple stuff and more fancy stuff.

You must be registered to see the links

 

[moose_puck]

... Thundorn over at

You must be registered to see the links

has some decent ones for a more open-world free-roam approach. There are a ton more, as well.

Here are a few tutorial channels:

Renpy:

You must be registered to see the links

- This one has easy to understand UI stuff.

I like both of these. Zeil is nice and clear talking about things for beginners and Thundorn's series of videos take you through exercises in a clear and easy to follow path.

I've stayed with Atom for my coding as well. It reminds me a lot of Homesite, a text based HTML editor I used too use ages ago.

I'm in the same situation as the OP. I basically know nothing about coding (other then some archaic website coding) and I grabbed Ren'py because (1) it seems a lot of games use it now and (2) it looked pretty user-friendly - at least for the basic functions. I wanted to concentrate on learning how to use Daz, so having an engine that is pretty much a "turn key" operation is handy.


Zavrex Looking at your screencaps of your coding, I would suggest you start writing code now, as you think you will when you start a full blown project. For example, those 1 letter name codes look dandy in the Ren'py tutorial, but honestly... you gonna ever have a game where every character's name starts with a different first letter? Or you gonna remember 26 codes? Write your code so you can come back after and understand it instantly. So use "Joe" instead of "J" for example. When you discover side images, you'll thank me... it's also something that makes dynamic images so much easier to code. You won't have to scan back into your variables to remember what something was called. You'll just write joe happy "I'm so happy, [sue_name]!"

Personally, I also structure my code to follow strict spacing and indentation patterns. Well ... ren'py pretty much forces you to follow proper indentation, but when I do long sections of dialogues with many scene slides, I like spacing out the characters and the scene transitions into separate blocks. I find it makes it much easier for me to scan the code for errors afterwards. I think it's some minor OCD on my part, manifesting as well.. hehe. For example - I just cleaned up the code for my project and I reordered all my declared variables in alphabetical order. Drove me nuts when i tried to mod some game on here and the character.rpy file would be all over the place

You know what one of the hardest habits I have had to break, while learning Ren'py? It's my habit from 30 years of chatting online, where I tend to capitalize the first letter. That causes me all sorts of grief in labels and what not, lol!

 

[Eezergoode]

For example, those 1 letter name codes look dandy in the Ren'py tutorial, but honestly... you gonna ever have a game where every character's name starts with a different first letter? Or you gonna remember 26 codes?

This, right here. Although, TBH, I still use 2-3 letters for most of them. I think it's a holdover from BASIC programming back in the 80s, when computers had less memory than TV remote control does today. I started programming on a TRS-80 model 1 with a grand total of like 20K of ram.

Some advice - Start a spreadsheet or list with all of your variables, including you character defines, that you can easily reference.

 

[Eezergoode]

Here are a few tutorial channels:

Renpy:

You must be registered to see the links

- This one has easy to understand UI stuff.

You must be registered to see the links

- Another easy to understand channel. This person also has a Daz channel I'll post below if you're interested.

You must be registered to see the links

- Only 3 videos, but they're pretty solid. Slim is also a pretty big-ish developer who has an account on here.

You must be registered to see the links

- A newer channel, has a mix of simple stuff and more fancy stuff.

You must be registered to see the links

These are all pretty good, depending on what you are wanting to do. The two I mentioned earlier also have a lot of good Daz tutorials and advice, and Thundorn also has other VN oriented videos for other platforms, like Unity and C#, and even some 3D tutorials for I think Maya and Blender, as well as photo/image editing tutorials for Photoshop.


Don't worry about not being where you want to be with your knowledge and skill, none of us started out as a master. My first game was translating an old "Choose Your Own Adventure" book to Ren'py. Then I made a few minor ones for my kids, and used Ren'Py to do some training material for a local small business, who provided all of the art assets. After all of that, I'm still struggling to make my first 'for release' game. A lot of it is due to time constraints, but a lot of it is that I still feel I have so much to learn. It's a process, and you really never stop earning new things. But with thing you make, you learn, and get better.

 

[159sgl]

Here are a few tutorial channels:

Renpy:

You must be registered to see the links

- This one has easy to understand UI stuff.

You must be registered to see the links

- Another easy to understand channel. This person also has a Daz channel I'll post below if you're interested.

You must be registered to see the links

- Only 3 videos, but they're pretty solid. Slim is also a pretty big-ish developer who has an account on here.

You must be registered to see the links

- A newer channel, has a mix of simple stuff and more fancy stuff.

You must be registered to see the links

Cool, thanks for sharing.

 

[coffeeaddicted]

Thank you guys so much for the guides and luck.

Ya, I didn't mention anything about visuals initially as I'm trying to focus on one thing at a time. Even my first attempts of making personal VNs aren't what I want to make down the line, but doing so just to get the handle on the fundamentals.

Took me a few hours, like 6 hours, but I made a very barebones VN after going through the RenPy tutorial a few times. Imported stock images, a few background scenes, a couple of bgm for play music, some sound effects to trigger, and various paths the player can take based on the choices they make when prompted. Essentially it's a short experience, with 2 endings based on said choices, takes a few runs to get all the dialogue.

The code is sloppy and basic, but that's the point. Starting small as I don't expect to get everything overnight, completely agree with that.

Now I'm going through Elaine's YT tutorial and will be coding as she does to learn more of the more novice-intermediate things of Ren'py / Python. Especially those if statements and the $ meaning. I'll include a couple of shots of code of that VN I made, I'll definitely improve my organizational skills in time lol, but it works and is playable.

Currently using ATOM for the text editor, unless anyone else recommends something better.

Thank you again for all your help guys, awesome community!

MS Visual Studio Code. IMO it's better than anything i tried. I started off with Atom but i think it's not developed anymore. I think.
VSC has lots going for. Lots of addons that help to customize it. Clear code reading blabla... it's free....
You can install it in Renpy but i prefer to install it on my computer.
You may give it a try and judge yourself.