newbie game developer

lezbie

Member
Jul 8, 2017
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72
hi guys

i wanna learn to develope a game and i really have no idea how to start...

1. what engine should i use as a begginer?
2. jave is good for game developing?
3. anything else that can help me...

i hope its not too stupid questions and i cant wait to try working on this

thanks :)
 

Saki_Sliz

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2018
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Welcome to the community! Always happy to see new aspiring devs.

There is two ways to go about getting started, two philosophies:
  1. Focusing on small projects
  2. Focusing on skills
The is definitely a learning curve depending on what kind of game you want to make. Some people will ask you 'what kind of game do you want to make?' and the issue is that even simple games requires a lot of fundamentals, so people will tell you to make games you want to make, but really simplify your ideas, don't try anything ambitious. I've even heard the rule that your first game shouldn't take you more than a month. The issue is, for new devs, without knowing anything, they have no way to tell how complex an idea is, or how long it will take. Doing small projects just to get some experience with some mechanics and learning tools is good, but I think its better to frame those kinds of experiences as "focusing on skills"

I suggest focusing on skills, because phrasing things in terms of 'skills' is a good way to break down a lot of the complexity when it comes to games and how to make games. Say for example, you want to make an open world, 2D like, zelda experience or something, with quests, characters that can join you, loot and collectables. Most people start making games because they found something that really inspired them, but each feature a dev wants to implement requires their own skills and experience. Making an inventory in code is one set of skill, learning how to manage datatypes is another set of skills (even if you are still using simpler languages like python, you still need to understand concepts such as "objects/Classes" and Object oriented programming), and then trying to set up a User interface is a whole other set of skills, and that's just the inventory. There's even a famus blog post about the complexity of simple things, like adding doors to a game.

So game making can be challenging, where's a good place to start.

I fear that lots of users on this site will tend to suggest things such as Renpy, Twine, RPGMaker, and maybe unity. I want to again mention the philosophy about, focusing on skills. Depending on what kind of projects you want to do in the future, there is a right and a wrong way to start.

Do you want to tell a story? Twine and RPGMaker are often used.
Do you want to focus on showing off art, Renpy (a visual novel engine) is very very popular on this site (you'll probably get the most help with this engine since lots of users here use renpy).
Both twine and rpg maker can be used to show off art, but are really good at dumping lots of text, while renpy is better for shorter bits of text (aka dialog).
With renpy, you can learn python to give the engine more power and start to do some pretty crazy things, such as simulating interactable phones, interactable maps, and make a game that isn't a visual novel, but this requires learning lots of tricks and ways to manipulate renpy's default behavior.

But what if you aren't sure, or you want to do other kinds of games, or implement custom game mechanics? While it is possible to implement different kinds of games and mechanics with the above tools (twine is often used for multi-branching stories, or having a player character with stats, for text based games such as for dungeon crawling using only text), these more or less requires a good understanding of the engine, how to work with the engine, and seeing how other people did something because it may not be entirely clear how to go about something.

For the most part, renpy and twine are the most popular, with renpy focusing more on visual, and twine allowing you to use mostly text to substitute for art. But what if these aren't the kinds of games you want to make. what if you want something a bit more interactive, such as a platformer, an RPG, or maybe a visual novel with more complex character AI? In those case, as you become more skilled and familiar with your tool, you'll start to run into an issue. Twine, Renpy, and RPGMaker are specialized tools, they make it easy to make different kinds of games, but they start to limit you when you start to do more complex things.

The moment you want to do something more, is when you have to relearn a lot to switch to a new tool. Now a days, lots of programming languages implement (OOP aka Object-Oriented-Programming). When you learn the concepts of OOP, and how code behaves in general (vairables, datatypes, scope), it can be easier to switch to a new programming language, but the issue with that is none of the above really use general progarmming languages. If you want Java, I think Java tends to be used with Twine (which is still a pretty powerful tool), renpy is kinda python like, it uses python, but its not true python since it runs through a special interpeter and is formated to interact with Renpy's own scripts. RPG maker is just a tool, idk if you can actually program with it. But when all else fails, Unity or Unreal Engine 4 (Godot is also a unity competitor that is slowly making a name for itself).

The choice depends on what kinds of games you want to do in the far future, and which tool will work for you best in the long run. However, if you want to start off in hard mode, I would recommend Unity, mainly because you can us C# which I think is the best programming language. But, that's only if you need to deal with code. You only need to deal with code when you want to do or make something that can't be done by the tool. RPGMaker makes an interactable RPG like those in the 90's, but you can't change how objects behave or add too many affects with puzzles and game interactions being limited to only what is pre programmed. Twine is an HTML something, I think lots of people use the 'sugarcube' plug in to make twine more powerful (often used with lots of games but I forget what it does) so it only opens up in a browser as a text focused interface, so no interactable chaarcters or maps (but hey, maybe there's plug ins to give it more features for this), and I've seen people do incredible things with renpy, but it still has some limitations. If you wanted to do visual effects like animated characters or physics based animation on a character's outfit, not possible. Again, worst case is, you want something, but have to develop it yourself, which is the only reason you have to start looking into code.

So if you want to focus on ideas and games mainly revolving around art and story, you'd probably want to 'focus on projects' and getting familiar with how your tool works. I'd suggest twine or renpy, and you'll probably get lot of help from others on this site as you try to do things with the tools.

But if you know that you want to do more complex ideas or ideas that doesn't sound possible with these tools (typically if you want your games to focus more on game mechanics, or if you are more inspired by game mechanic ideas than you are about story/art), then you I'd actually recommend focusing on developing 'skills' because it will be your programming skill that maters more, not so much the tool you use. I'd strongly recommend Unity and learning about C# (Microsoft's 'better' version of java). If you are learning code, C is basic variables, scope, and flow control, C++ introduces OOP (such as what can be found in java), C# is better because safer code, automatic memory management, but it handles OOP a bitt different from Java but is more powerful (With java they don't allow you to do some things because they didn't trust the devs to be safe, which C# found solutions for), and has a robust exception system that makes it easier to figure out whats going wrong. Unreal uses C++, which I don't advice for new devs nowadays because the code is unsafe (easy to make code that breaks) and you have to worry about memory management, and unreal is focused more on FPS games so so its annoying trying to make other types of games using it, but it looks great. After picking an engine, its about identifynig what things you want to try, such as trying to get a character sprite to move around, which involves the slowest phase of googling how to do every small thing.
 

Losersriot

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Jul 7, 2021
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1) Use RenPy. ONLY RENPY.
2) Create pictures and video use Unreal Engine or Unity
3) Forgot about coding.
 
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8InchFloppyDick

Member
Game Developer
Apr 4, 2020
134
381
i wanna learn to develope a game and i really have no idea how to start...
First of all I'll join Saki_Sliz in welcoming you to this fine Ship of Fools :)

Beyond that, my suggestion would be to not start with a 'game' but to write a single scene of your story and get that working in Ren'py.

To do that, you'll:

1. have to learn the basics of Ren'Py and
2. have to pickup some basic Daz3D skills and
3. get some sort of idea about how much work it takes to 'make a game'.

Best of luck!
 

OsamiWorks

Member
May 24, 2020
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204
Tell us what kind of game you want to make, that way we can push you down the right path for learning what you need
 
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lezbie

Member
Jul 8, 2017
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thanks so much guys for all your answers Saki_Sliz Losersriot 8InchFloppyDick OsamiWorks

i want to try make game similar to Glamour by Dark Silver
this game made me want to learn how :)

i have a little experience with Daz3D
which engine you think is best for this kind of game?
and if you have link to guides i will be very greatful

thanks for all the help
 

Saki_Sliz

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2018
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Ah, in that case, for that type of game, you'll get 2 answers: Ren'Py and Unity

I assume many would recommend Ren'Py because it is simpler than Unity, however, I don't know how hard it will be to implement custom buttons (being able to click on characters, click on map locations) and if I understand corrrectly, that is one of the major things Ren'Py devs have to work around to try and trick renpy to work for them. But I don't use renpy enough to actually say anything for sure on the subject.

For me, the graphical stuff is pretty easy, you just use Unity UI Button, and switch the button type to use an image, so you can click on people, doors, or map locations, but then you have to deal with the struggle of managing a scene and getting it to transition backgrounds and characters, which means data management, which take a while to get the hang of.
 
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OsamiWorks

Member
May 24, 2020
196
204
thanks so much guys for all your answers Saki_Sliz Losersriot 8InchFloppyDick OsamiWorks

i want to try make game similar to Glamour by Dark Silver
this game made me want to learn how :)

i have a little experience with Daz3D
which engine you think is best for this kind of game?
and if you have link to guides i will be very greatful

thanks for all the help
Ah rip, I think 8inchfloppy had good advice. While I would would say use renpy, I've practically never worked with it and don't know its limitations. I've never played that game but from the looks of it you will need a way of keeping track of time, an inventory system, some kind of stat tracking system which get much deeper down the rabbit whole than the other two, and almost definitely need a game manager that everything will subscribe too. In unity, just from what i see, you'll end up spending a bit of time working on those things and you'll be forced to spend a lot of time working on your UI if you want to make it clean and make everything work correctly. So to sum up how things would go with Unity, you would be working in C#, trying to get your UI functional, and building intermediate level code for systems. If your coding history is weak or nonexistant, it will be a significant barrier. You only have so much time and patience before you'll lose interest in making your game and it would be better to start smaller if you struggle with the fundamentals for coding right now.

While I haven't used ren'py a lot, you can write all of those things in python. Python is awful from my experience, but its so versatile and practical that its good. C# (unity) is like its uglier step brother, and C+(unreal) is their ugly bastard of a dad. Go with ren'py if you aren't comfortable with coding, it uses a markup language that will help bridge a gap into actually coding, and you'll be able to get something made with little to no knowledge of code. You have other things to worry about like planning your scenes, writing your stories, learning how to use DAZ. I'm learning unity animations and working on learning rigging and sculpting, it is a lot of work. I wish I had worked with IK rigs and did more modding in honey select before I started looking into animation. I would advise anyone to start with easier engines, it will make transitions into the more powerful tools much smoother.

You can learn python and integrate any systems you want into your ren'py game later within the engines limitations, but if you get stuck using unity without producing anything , you might just give up before you do anything at all. It doesnt look like youre comfortable with coding but if you are, then feel free to hit up unity for that extended functionality
 
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lezbie

Member
Jul 8, 2017
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so unity is better but its more hard to learn
ren'py is easier but need to work more to get what i want

you guys have any guides of something like that?
 

OsamiWorks

Member
May 24, 2020
196
204
so unity is better but its more hard to learn
ren'py is easier but need to work more to get what i want

you guys have any guides of something like that?
Unity isnt better, its about fitting what you need. Unity isn't difficult to learn at all but youre not accounting for the fact that you have do everything and you dont want to take that lightly. You wouldn't drive a semi truck to work if you were employed at the local mc donalds. Its the same thing with programming languages and game engines, pick what fits your needs. Using unity to make a VN without a reason for it is the same as driving the semi-truck to your job slinging burgers. Renpy when you launch it has a tutorial and you can always look at as well as 100's of posts on this site to help you make your first game and get the experience you need. Unity learn has an of their website and a discord but I felt like I was on my own asking questions there. The help you'll get along the way is really important in all of this

A big part of the reason I'm saying all this is because I started off in unreal engine, then moved to unity for the support. I set myself up to have time do this. I'm probably close too, if not over 200 hours in overall after 2 months and I'm still really far from the finish line. I don't have the pride to say I'm above relearning fundamentals and I know I'll end up going through tutorials I've seen last month again in the coming months. If I don't do it, things will take longer, and I'm mentioning it because that situation will apply to you soon if you put in the effort. You need to understand the weight of how much it will be before you start. Those hours arent just spent on unity and coding.

The only reason I'm not using renpy is because the game I want to make isnt one that could be made in it. I'm thinking more about how I want people to see my characters and interact with them over what engine I'm using. You always need to remember that the engine, the code, the 3d art, they are all just tools to that end. I'm saying this so you don't take on a project you'll give up on in a month, use renpy if you know nothing.
 

lezbie

Member
Jul 8, 2017
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72
ok i think i understand it a little better now

i think glamour is a little too hard for a begginer like me
so lets say i want simple game with manegment
something like Venus's Club

i can see they are using unity... should i use unity for this?
 
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OsamiWorks

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May 24, 2020
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ok i think i understand it a little better now

i think glamour is a little too hard for a begginer like me
so lets say i want simple game with manegment
something like Venus's Club

i can see they are using unity... should i use unity for this?
I dont think I can convince you out of it, good luck
 
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lezbie

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Jul 8, 2017
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I dont think I can convince you out of it, good luck
im not locking on unity
but i trying to uderstand what engine i need to game like that
i really new to this so i may need some time to understand things o_O sorry

for game like venus's club what engine you will use?
 

OsamiWorks

Member
May 24, 2020
196
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im not locking on unity
but i trying to uderstand what engine i need to game like that
i really new to this so i may need some time to understand things o_O sorry

for game like venus's club what engine you will use?
I don't know and Im not going to figure it out. The skills you learn building a game in renpy will help transition into unity later on if you find out you need to or want to. I'm just trying to keep you from hurting yourself on the first step
 
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lezbie

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Jul 8, 2017
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I don't know and Im not going to figure it out. The skills you learn building a game in renpy will help transition into unity later on if you find out you need to or want to. I'm just trying to keep you from hurting yourself on the first step
ok so you suggesting me to start with renpy and learn unity only if i need to
i get it right?
 

AzureSheep

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Nov 5, 2017
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Just go with renpy, you're a beginner and renpy games doubles every other platform, and for a good reason. You've got a lot of other hurdles to worry about than the game engine if you want to make something like Venus Club.
 
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Winterfire

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Sep 27, 2018
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Unless you are willing to spend at least 6 months making stuff on Unity daily, without ever posting them here, I'd go for Ren'Py.
No matter how newbie you are, it is really hard to screw up with Ren'Py, so you can watch a tutorial today, and publish your 0.00001 tomorrow.
 

Saki_Sliz

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May 3, 2018
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spend at least 6 months making stuff on Unity ... without ever posting them here
Ouch... but true
I guess that's a pretty good point. The hardest thing about projects like these is staying motivated, and the best way to stay motivated is being able to share and talk about what interest you and what you are doing. While I do warn that for lots of neat project ideas, you may find renpy to be limiting, if you are starting out I guess keeping motivation is more important, and that's easier to do with renpy as you will be able to work faster. dedicated tools are always faster, so long as you use them for the right usage.

the 'dark work' or work no one will ever notice or appreciate is a lot of what you'll have to do with unity, and that's even if you know what your doing, not including time spent slowly learning. I'm doing a lot of experiments with how I want to handle art in my game, what kind of visual approach I want to do with scenes, zones, areas, maps, and cameras, stuff that is more an art choice, but I'm still having to code things up that would probably be simpler in renpy, at least at first. An example of dark work is: I'm not only making code that handles moving from scene to scene, I am developing a 'framework' which in the future makes it really simple. Simpler than renpy probably, I just make a map in the animator, drag and drop scripts onto things and the code figures itself out without me having to touch code ever again, which just makes it easier to continue the game's development, but its a slow slow start before I have anything I can actually show. And its called 'dark work' because no one will see it or notice it. Sure, I'll appreciate it in the future so that adding more content isn't tedious, but if I have to explain to my team what I've been doing for a month, and its not directly adding content to the game, it seems like a waste of time (to both them and to backers... if I had backers lol). (Renpy could be described as a dedicated tool, simple and quick to use, Unity doesn't have that, so a lot of this 'dark work' is basically making your own 'dedicated tool' over and over )
 
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