Should I stick to Twine 2 or switch to Ren'py?

  • Switch to Ren'py!

    Votes: 367 76.1%
  • Stick with Twine!

    Votes: 115 23.9%

  • Total voters
    482
  • Poll closed .

The Anax

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Oct 24, 2017
1,454
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GiggleBanner.jpg

Since you are all already familiar with my Twine novels over the last 8 years, I won't worry about linking them. Well, maybe some of you have not played them. But, a fan made chapter 1 of Giggle Night into Renpy so folks could vote more fairly.

**GN Ren'py Proof of Concept:**
PC Version-
Mac Version-

Twine version here for those that are somehow unfamiliar with my games)- https://f95zone.to/threads/giggle-night-trixies-trial-v0-0-3-anaximanes.77511/

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EternitysInfinite

New Member
Apr 2, 2018
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Personally, I prefer the look and feel of Twine compared to RenPy for your style of game. Though, the RenPy version does seem nice and I'd still play them if you switched over.
Going over your points first:
#1. Normal RenPy isn't too rough, so I don't think you'd have much issue learning and using it. RenPy tends to be more dialogue focused than writing like Twine.
#2. It will take time to get used to it, yes.
#3. That's possible in RenPy. You'll have to learn RenPy's styling methods. Compared to CSS, there is simply less knowledge available on the internet about using it, which does make it harder at times.
#4. Entirely possible in both engines.
#5. Possible, though I'd say probably more effort than you'd have in Twine. Though this depends on how much code you're willing/able to write.
#6. Scroll boxes are a bit rough for something like Renpy, and is why I prefer Twine over it for content with a lot of text. RenPy doesn't work great for normal writing longer than a few sentences. More often what you'd do is have dialogue boxes that turn that into dialogue or inner-dialogue (thoughts or narrator).
#7. I think that would be a bad decision. Though, when designing renders it should be designed around that most of the focus is on the upper-half of the image, but players should be used to hiding the lower dialogue box to see the full art. I'd prefer large images that are partly obscured to renders that are forced into a smaller box.
#8. I'm not sure I get what you mean here. Twine is perfectly capable of doing high resolution images. Are you saying that since RenPy has it taking up the full screen, you have to do higher resolution compared to Twine? If so, that certainly is an issue.

Of note:
- Twine Javascript + CSS + HTML (for Twine) is more 'general' than RenPy's scripting. RenPy has Python (which is general), but has its own formatting for display. Twine skills are more transferable to other projects on the web.
- Twine can run in the browser, but this probably isn't a notable boost for it for your project since it is many gigabytes and running a server that hosts that could be a bit rough.
- Twine has the benefit of multiple formats. So, if SugarCube ever goes out of style or gets an update (which there is actually one in planning), you can simply swap to another story format. They aren't all the same, but the Javascript+CSS+HTML transfers. With RenPy you get more locked into their way of doing things.
- I don't believe there's any visual editor/graph like the Twine application for RenPy. Though, one to represent the graph could be made for RenPy with some effort, I don't believe it exists. (Like, for Twine, there's the Twinery application with its graph, and the VSCode extension that has its own graph for Twine/Twee files).
- RenPy is harder to get working on mobile. I don't think this is significant, though.

There's certainly some points of comparison that I've missed, but that covers a portion of it.

Overall, I prefer Twine because it is better for works with more writing, of which yours tend to be.
 

unocrus

Member
Oct 28, 2018
124
219
Not familiar with the game, but my opinion is that RenPy generally offers a more polished user experience compared to Twine. RenPy also leans heavily into visual presentation whereas Twine is better suited for text. Something to consider when choosing an engine is what are the actual strengths of your game? Your script may have thousands of lines of dialog, but are you actually making use of Twine's advanced text features? Are any special visual effects you're doing actually critical to the story?
 

The Anax

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Game Developer
Oct 24, 2017
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Not familiar with the game, but my opinion is that RenPy generally offers a more polished user experience compared to Twine. RenPy also leans heavily into visual presentation whereas Twine is better suited for text. Something to consider when choosing an engine is what are the actual strengths of your game? Your script may have thousands of lines of dialog, but are you actually making use of Twine's advanced text features? Are any special visual effects you're doing actually critical to the story?
Yes, indeed I am. I know you have not been playing all those novels I made, but yes, I have pushed Twine to limits beyond what I think most, if not all, others have. Anyway, i am very familiar with both as Slugs and Bugs: Conversion is Renpy and all my novels are Twine, but I appreciate your insight.
 
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notmalthus

Newbie
May 12, 2018
29
29
RenPy seems like it (a) does not handle cross-platform well at all, and (b) suffers from really ugly scaling issues (slowdowns, memory leaks, crashes, etc)

Twine can really shine (ie outshine RenPy) once you gitgud (ha!). In all seriousness, grabbing VS Code, adding in JS and Go plugins, and hooking it up to a Git completely changes what it's capable of. There's so much JS on stackoverflow, there's almost nothing it can't be made to do, and much cleaner than in RenPy.
 

The Anax

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Game Developer
Oct 24, 2017
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RenPy seems like it (a) does not handle cross-platform well at all, and (b) suffers from really ugly scaling issues (slowdowns, memory leaks, crashes, etc)

Twine can really shine (ie outshine RenPy) once you gitgud (ha!). In all seriousness, grabbing VS Code, adding in JS and Go plugins, and hooking it up to a Git completely changes what it's capable of. There's so much JS on stackoverflow, there's almost nothing it can't be made to do, and much cleaner than in RenPy.
Yep, you know how polished and good my novels have been! So, I agree! But, right now investors are at 70% for me to switch to Renpy after all these years.
 

cell943

Active Member
Oct 14, 2017
607
568
I've tried scripting in both, and Renpy (from my cursory experience with Corporate Takeover on HPC) offered a more nuanced control over behind-the-scenes behavior, but Twine was easier to manage with its visual flow diagram. I don't know if this matters to you since you don't have an interest in learning how to code for your games, but whoever you recruit may appreciate working in Renpy more.
From a writing standpoint, I think the main pull for Renpy is that the images and the text are given equal consideration. That is, with Twine, you would often be forced to scroll down to read all the text, removing the image from view. On the other hand, Renpy only allows a small section of text to be displayed at any given time. It makes up for this by allowing the user to advance the text by clicking anywhere, rather than a specific button or pecking through paragraphs for the correct word to click.

Check out Superpowered for an example of in-depth GUI management. It's come a long way since its RAGS days.
 
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Penfold Mole

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May 22, 2017
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RenPy seems like it (a) does not handle cross-platform well at all, and (b) suffers from really ugly scaling issues (slowdowns, memory leaks, crashes, etc)
I'm not sure where do you get this, but the only platform that has some problems with Ren'Py is Android with its touch controls and a wide variety of hardware.
Ren'Py has been working equally well on Windows, Linux and Mac. I'm not sure where else you'd like to run it? The Linux version may even work on FreeBSD and Solaris, considering the similarity of these Unix-like systems.
Also, Windows and Linux versions are usually the same, with libraries and launchers for both platforms integrated into the game. And it's a kid's play to run a Windows/Linux version on a Mac or create a Mac version by yourself from it. You just need the SDK.

Up until v7.4 Ren'Py has been a rather stable engine and easy on old hardware. I've met a possible mem leak caused by a faulty Ren'Py version once and it was quite easy to fix it by limiting the memory size to a fixed value for Ren'Py by adding a single config line.
Since v7.4 there have been temporary problems due to some major changes in the renderer, but there also have been fixes and it has been getting better.

But, seriously, every single game slow-down I've seen over about 5 years of playing Ren'Py games has been caused by the game dev trying to run several high def videos simultaneously on top of each other by starting the next video or even two or more before stopping previous video loops from running hidden in the background.
Also, high memory usage is sometimes caused by adding a huge amount of images on top of each other by (ab)using the show statement where scene statements should have been used, where using the show statement doesn't even make any sense (using show for full screen images).
It's not really the fault of the guy who made the microscope if people keep using it as a hammer.

I've been fixing those game scripts with jumpy videos mostly for myself and have uploaded quite a few here as fixes for other bugs in the past. I just don't have time to fix them all well enough to share.
Those slow-downs probably aren't even as bad as I can see them on average normal hardware, since my home PC is really ancient by now.
 
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notmalthus

Newbie
May 12, 2018
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I'm not sure where do you get this, but the only platform that has some problems with Ren'Py is Android with its touch controls and a wide variety of hardware.
Ren'Py has been working equally well on Windows, Linux and Mac.
I've found RenPy to be really stable on the PC, but on MacOS it's really hit or miss. Sometimes it won't run until you repair permissions or bypass gatekeeper, sometimes it just won't work at all. While advanced Mac users might be able to dig into terminal and repair these, or patch the libraries/inits, it does make the game inaccessible to some fraction of potential target audience.

For more complex games (ie games that have been finished) memory leaks and slowdowns are commonplace on Mac. But the exact same game might be fine on Windows. Plus the annual MacOS upgrades seem to break to break RenPy frequently. Taken together, it's easy to see why one might think the RenPy libraries aren't super stable for Mac.

But, seriously, every single game slow-down I've seen over about 5 years of playing Ren'Py games has been caused by the game dev trying to run several high def videos simultaneously on top of each other by starting the next video or even two or more before stopping previous video loops from running hidden in the background.
Also, high memory usage is sometimes caused by adding a huge amount of images on top of each other by (ab)using the show statement where scene statements should have been used, where using the show statement doesn't even make any sense (using show for full screen images).
It's not really the fault of the guy who made the microscope if people keep using it as a hammer.
100% this. That's the point I was trying to make: since Twine is ultimately JS under the hood, it's way more tolerant of abuse and extending than RenPy. It also makes it easier to toss up on a git to collaborate with others. (I haven't tried it out yet, but I expect VS Code CoPilot would also play nice with Twine too. Something I'm looking forward to trying out sometime...)

Given Anax's complex, experimental stories, plus years of experience as a game dev, it seemed like being able to head off in any random direction might be something he would want to be able to do, even if it's not explicitly supported by the engine.

All that being said, if Anax's patrons want RenPy, he should do that.
 

shark_inna_hat

Active Member
Game Developer
Dec 25, 2018
705
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I can name at least one game that switched engines a year ago or more and didn't recover since.
There are very few features in renpy that you could not replicate in a html/js game (having access to the users filesystem may be one...) and there are quite a few things a html/js game can do (like running on any device be it pc, linux, mac, android or your custom firmwear smart-refrigerator if it only has a web browser).
Renpy has one real advantage - it's popular as fuck.
 

Master of Puppets

Conversation Conqueror
Oct 5, 2017
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IMO Renpy is far superior to platforms such as Unity or TyranoBuilder for VNs, this is easy to say since the interface for them is similar. Twine is a bit different, since it is a bit of a different format, being suited for passages of text with images included, rather than images with sequentially presented lines of dialogue captioning it. Still it's quite possible to do text-heavy games in Renpy, and since you moved from photo manips to renders you don't have the problem of using pictures with an aspect ratio other than 16:9 on a platform designed for full-screen images.
If you need to ask a programmer for help with something, add me to that list if you'd like. I've been studying Renpy for a while now and while I haven't yet released a game, it's the artistic side rather than the technical side that's holding me back.
 

The Anax

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Game Developer
Oct 24, 2017
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In the end I decided to do both! That way both sides of my fans can enjoy themselves. There is a fan that is helping, and he's going to help port everything over into Renpy. If he happens to disappear, like any other programmer fan that's helped me, thanks to the Anax Programmer Curse, then I will definitely reach out to you.

While as you know I have four games on hold, unfortunately even though I settled for Renpy for SBC, I really don't want to settle on it again for the other four games. I would much rather have three of them made in Unity then in the fourth either made in Unity for RPG Maker.

Thank you very much for the offer however! It is JavaScript in HTML that I really need help with, the programmer that is moving things to Renpy has already been able to build game mode very quickly in that system, whereas in my twine games, Shadow Code spent a year and a half and made some amazing systems, he made outstanding progress, and then suddenly disappeared before finishing up. I'm very worried, I think it may have been covid related, but he just simply vanished in April. So that's where I could really use a hand is finishing up what he spent a year and a half building. Anyway, I appreciate it!
 

Master of Puppets

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Oct 5, 2017
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If he happens to disappear, like any other programmer fan that's helped me, thanks to the Anax Programmer Curse, then I will definitely reach out to you.
Wait, nobody said anything about a curse! :eek:

I know a bit of Javascript and HTML too, but basically nothing about Twine, and working on a complicated codebase when the original developer isn't around to answer question isn't easy at the best of times, so I don't know if there's anything I could do there.
 

The Anax

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Oct 24, 2017
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Wait, nobody said anything about a curse! :eek:

I know a bit of Javascript and HTML too, but basically nothing about Twine, and working on a complicated codebase when the original developer isn't around to answer question isn't easy at the best of times, so I don't know if there's anything I could do there.
It's ok! I understand! With any luck someday he shall return and finish the last 10% of his work and we shall have a very smooth Game Mode for Desideratum!
 

desmosome

Conversation Conqueror
Sep 5, 2018
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Looks like you already decided, but I think you should keep in mind the strengths of each engine and how they complement the specific game you are making.

Renpy is good for dialogue heavy VNs. It benefits from high image to text ratio if you are going all out with production value. Alternatively, you could use character sprites on static backgrounds for the bulk of the conversations and such, and use full renders for sex scenes or whenever you want more visual emphasis.

Now, I have not played all of your games, but the ones I did play are very narrative driven. There are certainly dialogues, but it reads more like a novel than a typical VN. I think twine works well for what you are doing.

I'm not saying you couldn't achieve good results with a renpy switch, but you would certainly have to make adjustments to fit the engine. A 1:1 port would be rather underwhelming.

edit: And a poll like this is inevitably going to end up with Renpy winning decisively. Most people won't consider the specifics and just vote for their favorite engine that they are used to.

edit2: As for the specific games, I think something like Desideratum could work well in Renpy. Similar types of exploration and combat has been done in other renpy games with great results. Something like Cult of Corruption seems like a better fit for twine.
 
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Master of Puppets

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Oct 5, 2017
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It's ok! I understand! With any luck someday he shall return and finish the last 10% of his work and we shall have a very smooth Game Mode for Desideratum!
If you'd like me to take a quick look at it I can, just don't get your hopes up is what I'm saying.