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ihl86

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Dec 8, 2019
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Hi guys,

I have started to develop a RenPy VN and before I go all out on the development part I wanted to ask some questions from the community that will most likely be my customer base.
Before I start with the questions I will list here some details about my game.
Stuff already decided:
  • It will have a female protagonist.
  • I already know the story I want to tell. Depending on its success, there are 2 main chapters planned (maybe even 2 games that follow each other).
  • Game will have a gallery
Stuff I kind of want to do but could change if enough people would want it another way:
  • Game would be a sandbox type game that follows a main storyline. That means there is a certain story to be told but the MC needs to reach certain points/have certain attributes to continue with that story

Stuff I haven't really decided yet or don't have enough knowledge about:
  1. Was thinking to add a replayable scenes feature to the game
  2. Should I include other characters thoughts in this ? (I could also put it as a feature to turn on/off if people want to see other characters thoughts or not)
  3. what are people's thoughts on maybe playing certain parts of the story also from a second perspective?
  4. what are the preferred graphic styles when it comes to 3dcg ? I've seen a lot of games with good graphics but different styles. Which ones are preferred?
  5. How important are animations and how good do they have to be?
  6. How important are music and sounds to a game experience?
  7. How important is the UI in this type of game ? What are some example of favorite UIs
  8. scene transitions - thoughts on that?
  9. will add more points if people have ideas on that

I have already developed a lot of what I call my game engine within RenPy for it being a Sandbox for now (moving through different rooms, map, advancing time and other stuff) but if a majority of people prefer story type VNs I could change my game to that. What started for me like an idea of a Sandbox game with some story around it changed. What I would really like now is to tell this story through a game as I've became attached to it, the rest is, in the end up for discussion.

P.S. Should I add tags to this post like VB and RenPy ?
 
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Crimson Delight Games

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Nov 20, 2020
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The more features you add, the more work you'll have to pay for, or do yourself (unless you're part of a team).

But to answer some of your questions...
  • replayable scenes are good if they're generic enough to make sense (ex: visiting a brothel to hook up with girls)
  • depends on how good your writing is, and how much you enjoy developing individual characters (even the ones that you personally may not like)
  • you mean second-person PoV? quite good for things like CYOAs, not so good for truncated infodumps
  • there's no singular 'preferred' style - go with what you yourself enjoy the most, and are good at!
  • animations are time-consuming and expensive (either in money or labor), so keep that in mind
  • sound/music is key to a good atmosphere... luckily, there's plenty of resources on the net which are free for even commercial projects (dig around for a weekend or two, you'll find more stuff than you'll ever need)
  • good UIs are inherently sleek and stylish while also remaining functional... look at your favorite AA+ games for ideas and inspiration, but keep in mind visuals should always take a back seat to utility!
  • scene transitions are awesome if you don't overuse them

Good luck with your project!
 
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Kommios

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Aug 31, 2018
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Based on what you say, I'm guessing this is your first VN. Treat it as a learning experience.

Bear in mind that, whatever you do, you aren't going to be able to please everyone. Take constructive feedback and criticism on board, but make the VN that you want to make. You're going to be putting in a lot of time and effort and you don't want it to turn into a hated chore.

Ignore criticism that isn't constructive.

Don't expect to make any money - at least, not for a long time.

Set yourself realistic goals in terms of features, regularity and size of updates. Don't be too ambitious. A shorter, straightforward VN will be easier to complete. Once you have one under your belt, you'll have a better idea of what you're doing and, ideally, started to build up a reputation as well.

I hope I don't come across as negative here - I wish you the absolute best with your efforts.
 

Domiek

In a Scent
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Jun 19, 2018
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I'll tell you what I wish I told myself two years ago.

Make a short game that you plan to complete in 6 months or less. In doing so, you will answer 90% of the questions you've asked. The last thing you want is to be stuck in a 2-3 year commitment to a project you either A) Have to constantly rework a lot of newbie mistakes B) Locked into a style/gameplay that you find yourself absolutely despising or C) Abandon.

A short first game will gain you a lot of experience under your belt that will help you determine not only your own personal preferences but will also help you avoid common pitfalls and be able to more accurately assess what are realistic goals. You'll be setting yourself up for success in the following game.
 

ihl86

Member
Dec 8, 2019
375
1,298
First of all, thank you all for your answers.
This is my first game. I have been working on it for a while (I spent like a month to create what I felt like my perfect MC and story) but I had to take a long break due to personal problems. I am just getting back into developing it and trying to get back my mojo by playing some games. Because I played so many games (like 10 or 12) in a short span of time (a week or so) I just realized how many different styles there are. That's why I thought maybe I'll ask some questions here before I develop a game just after my personal preferences to play a game and then find myself in a minority with those preferences.
I do want to mention that I did do some renders for another game developer a while back (for pay) and they were well received. I just realized that by doing that I was not concentrating on my game anymore so I decided to give that a pause. So I do have some experience with renders (and some animations).
The more features you add, the more work you'll have to pay for, or do yourself (unless you're part of a team).
I work alone. I have a programming background so RenPy is not hard for me to work with. Python is an easy enough programming language, it just takes a little while to figure out how to use the already existing features in RenPy so I don't develop what's already available.
  1. replayable scenes are good if they're generic enough to make sense (ex: visiting a brothel to hook up with girls)
  2. depends on how good your writing is, and how much you enjoy developing individual characters (even the ones that you personally may not like)
  3. you mean second-person PoV? quite good for things like CYOAs, not so good for truncated infodumps
  4. there's no singular 'preferred' style - go with what you yourself enjoy the most, and are good at!
  5. animations are time-consuming and expensive (either in money or labor), so keep that in mind
  6. sound/music is key to a good atmosphere... luckily, there's plenty of resources on the net which are free for even commercial projects (dig around for a weekend or two, you'll find more stuff than you'll ever need)
  7. good UIs are inherently sleek and stylish while also remaining functional... look at your favorite AA+ games for ideas and inspiration, but keep in mind visuals should always take a back seat to utility!
  8. scene transitions are awesome if you don't overuse them
Good luck with your project!
I numbered the points so it's easier to make sense which answer goes to which question and to which response:
  1. Good feedback, I will keep that in mind
  2. I would hope my writing is good enough :). I would not write out the thoughts of all characters all the time. I would only do it for other important characters in the story and only to give context or explain certain actions or reactions. Much like in a third person multiple viewpoint book.
  3. Because for a female MC I think 3rd person makes the most sense, as most players want to see her. I would have to keep it third person with any character I do this for. I think it would be weird if I switch back and forth between second person and third person PoV. I was thinking about this just to give more context to the story. Also, it would be, maybe for giving some lewd scenes earlier in the game as the protagonist isn't going to have anything too soon. I don't like the games where she is a "good girl" but she gets blackmailed and has sex within the first 10 minutes of playtime. It just sounds ridiculous to me and couldn't develop such a game.
  4. Funny thing is I saw some very good animations technical wise (like in The Visit) that are not as well received as others (like in Milfy City). there is definitely a different style in there so I thought that's what maybe is the difference. Or maybe it's just the difference in popularity.
  5. As I mentioned above, I do have some experience with some animations. They were not the best, I have seen much better in the recent games and a really realistic one would indeed be very time consuming. I just remember I read somewhere that some people would not even play an adult VN without some animations so I wanted to see if it was a widely spread opinion and I do have to invest time into making enough of them. Because if I do make animations I would prefer they were good ones.
  6. I know what you mean. I have already found some resources for music. I haven't search for sounds yet but I am sure there are plenty for that as well. I just think it's very hard to match music to atmosphere to enhance the experience not just add some noise. I have played plenty of games where I would just mute and put my own music in the background or where sounds where so annoying that I really didn't want to hear them. So I was thinking, do I need to invest hours to find exactly what is needed for a good experience or maybe that time is better spent elsewhere and just put a few track during gameplay so people don't play with silence.
  7. Thanks, I check a few and see if I don't get some ideas for some simple UIs as I am not that proficient at 2d graphic design.
  8. Thanks, will keep in mind.
Set yourself realistic goals in terms of features, regularity and size of updates. Don't be too ambitious. A shorter, straightforward VN will be easier to complete. Once you have one under your belt, you'll have a better idea of what you're doing and, ideally, started to build up a reputation as well.

I hope I don't come across as negative here - I wish you the absolute best with your efforts.
That was my plan at the start. Make a small VN, get some experience under the belt, maybe already a fanbase that like my style. Unfortunately my idea developed over time and I got attached to it. The good thing is, the first part of my story, Chapter 1 could be done in six months, maybe less, I need to see how much it realistically takes me to render the images once I start a full process. The Second Chapter is kind of the open ended long one. I also already got ideas for prequels, if only people would like my story as I kind of want to write it regardless.
I actually wanted to be a writer for a long time but after coming back from work (programmer at first, software consultant after a while) where contrary to popular opinion you need creativity I didn't have enough energy to work on my stories (I have 2 novel ideas as well). This is why I thought I will combine 2 of my passions, writing and 3D graphics into something I could do, at some point, for a living.
Your comments come of as realistic, nothing negative there, thank you for your feedback and whishes.

I'll tell you what I wish I told myself two years ago.

Make a short game that you plan to complete in 6 months or less. In doing so, you will answer 90% of the questions you've asked. The last thing you want is to be stuck in a 2-3 year commitment to a project you either A) Have to constantly rework a lot of newbie mistakes B) Locked into a style/gameplay that you find yourself absolutely despising or C) Abandon.

A short first game will gain you a lot of experience under your belt that will help you determine not only your own personal preferences but will also help you avoid common pitfalls and be able to more accurately assess what are realistic goals. You'll be setting yourself up for success in the following game.
As I said above, I hope my Chapter 1 can be finished in about 6 months, maybe less. I know where the story starts, I know how it ends. I know some of the journey but I have not yet thought about it all and all the events that lead to the ending.
Funny thing is, the story already has a few endings, but only one of them is the one I am thinking of, that also continues into Chapter 2. The rest are just kind of Game overs in the sense that the MC will get a different life if you make some other choices but that is not a part of the story I am trying to tell so those endings will come at certain points in the game, before going through all the content. I hope that will sit well with the players. I would not like to force or lock anyone into making certain decisions but I can't tell more than one story. If I could split myself, I could see myself making multiple games, but unfortunately that is not an option.
A)When you say rework newbie mistakes, could you give me some examples? Are they referring to game engine mistakes, story telling mistakes or render mistakes? I am curious what would need to be reworked. I would think it's preferable to create new stuff instead of reworking old one most of the time.
B)I don't know if it's different for development, but for playing the game I found myself enjoying both sandboxes (if they don't get grindy to the point I want to search for a cheat) and choice based VNs.
C) I would never abandon a game completely. That seems so unfair to the people playing it. Worst case scenario, I would disclose the lack of time to properly finish it and do fewer renders per scene but at least finish the story so they get closure.
 

anne O'nymous

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Was thinking to add a replayable scenes feature to the game
This could be interesting, especially if it's a sandbox game, but it's not necessarily something easy to do ; at least not easy to do well.


Should I include other characters thoughts in this ? (I could also put it as a feature to turn on/off if people want to see other characters thoughts or not)
You shouldn't even include the MC thoughts in it. They should be shown to the player, whatever through the dialog or the visual, not fed to him ; this as much as possible. Depending of your own skills, it's not always avoidable, but it should be limited to the strict minimal.
In real life we don't read mind. In place, we interpret the reactions of the person, and try to read through what this person say. The same should be done in a game. This especially since you have something that book writers don't have, the visual. It's a big help since if a character is, by example, annoyed by what the MC said, making it frown can be enough to change the tone with which the player will read its next dialog line.
Yet, even in books, you never have more than the MC thoughts. Never you know the thoughts of others characters.


what are people's thoughts on maybe playing certain parts of the story also from a second perspective?
It totally depend of the story, the way you want the player to approach the game, what you mean by "second perspective", and what scenes are concerned by this.
Firstly the story need to permit this, what isn't always the case.
Secondly, it will obviously hurt the immersion, so it don't necessarily fit with a first person POV. Even with a third person POV, it will not works if you want your story and game to be immersive.
Thirdly, if it's to show use the scene a second time, but from the point of view of another involved character, it's totally useless. The only real difference would be the thoughts of this character, and like I said above, it's something to avoid. It will also show the visual reaction of the MC, but if you need this to show them, then there's a problem since it should be shown in its dialog lines. Plus, you apparently initially intended to show us his thoughts.
Fourthly, and it's the only "do it" point of this list, it can be interesting if it's "meanwhile" scenes. As I said, it will hurt the immersion, since the player will know more than the MC, but it's one of the many ways to avoid having to show a character thoughts. Take the classical "the MC is catch peeping at his mother in the shower". Instead of having a thought line for the mother that would goes like, "oh my god, my son is peeping at me when I'm naked. It's so hot...", you can left the MC at what he's doing, and showing us that, "meanwhile", the mother is in her room, masturbating while whispering her son's name. What can also be done without second perspective, by making the MC pass in front of his mother's bedroom door and hearing her moan like crazy, having the feeling that he sometimes heard his name. Up to you to decide if the "hot" (first option) is more important than the immersion (second option).


What are the preferred graphic styles when it comes to 3dcg ? I've seen a lot of games with good graphics but different styles. Which ones are preferred?
Hum, there isn't this much games with effectively "good graphics".
This said, the graphic style don't matter, as long as it fit the story. If, by example, you try to write a serious story and use a cartoon shader it will not works.

As for "good practice" here, don't use things out of the box. It will imply more works for you, but having a character that is yours, even if you just used the basic morphs to change few things here and there, will always be better than having the same girl than this game, and that one, without forgetting this one and, wait, isn't also the same in that game ?
Also use the fit morphs every time it's possible. Whatever if it's not perfect, having clothes that follow physics and not every single curve of the body will always be more enjoyable for the player. And try to have lighting consistent with the scene.
Globally speaking, you should pass from one week to more than one month (depending of your skills) preparing the visual part. Firstly by morphing each characters until you've something enough "unique looking". Secondly by testing each character in each locations you'll use, while in the same time working the main lighting you'll have for those locations. Doing this, you'll quickly discover that a character that looks good in one location, under one lighting, will suddenly looks like shit in another locations, or under another lighting.
Do this and then, whatever if your rendering skills are average, your CGs, and so your game, will looks better that most of the others.


How important are animations and how good do they have to be?
Not this important. They can really add a lot of life in your game, but only if they are near to perfect and put at the right place. Except for sex scenes (yet it depend some can be really bad), no animations at all will always be better than a not good enough one.
There's one game I forgot the name, that tried to use animations. One of the first you see is a girl walking... like a horse (you know, when they move slowly, showing every step of the move), and needing something like twenty steps and five seconds to reach the door that was 2 meters away. It was so ridiculous that it totally killed the game for me.


How important are music and sounds to a game experience?
Not at all (I tend you listen to my own music while playing) to fundamental. It depend of the reason why you use them.
Regarding music, take an iconic scene, Dark Vador first appearance in A New Hope. Remove the music, and the scene is flat. A French filmmaker recently said that "[he] love when the music know about something that haven't happened yet", and it's something that any dev should keep in mind if he add music to his game ; the music is here to set the mood.
Think about "regular" games, and this moment when the combat music start, but you're still alone. Fear, or excitation it depend, sometimes even both, start to grow in you. Something big will happen, you know it, but you don't know what nor when. One second before you were casually walking, while thinking about things as unrelated to the game than, by example, your grocery list, but now you're fully awake, concentrated on the game, ready to fight for your life.
If it's used this way, if the music effectively add a dimension to the game, then yeah it's important. I'll even say that you need to explicitly say it to the players, in order for them to test if for once it's true (because alas the "the music is important in this game" are too often a lie), and so fully enjoy your game. But if it's just to put music, then do as you want, but know that many (perhaps even most) of the players will just mute it and listen to their own music.

As for the sounds, it depend what sound and what purpose. If it's to sound the sex scene, I'm tend to say, "forget about it". Sound is an important stimulus during sex, but in games it tend to be a turn off because it rarely fit the action. This mostly because it's fucking hard to do it. You don't know how many time the player will need to read the sentence, how many time he'll stay on a give image.
Therefore, either you'll loop your sound, and it will feel weird, or you brutally shut it, to pass to a more accurate one, what would feel even more weird. Or, what is generally used, you'll have a global sound for the whole scene, that will loop forever. Some can like it, but for me a woman going near to orgasm while I haven't even put it in, it's not something sexy. Same if the instant after being near to orgasm, she slowly moan because she's still not really at it. I prefer my girls to be silents, than them faking it.
Also, most devs who do this tend to use the same files for every sex scene. And once again, having different girls moaning in the exact same way with the exact same voice isn't at all a turn on for me.
As for other sound effects, it's used like for the music. Used well it can add some depth to the game, but you must know that not all the players will hear them, so they need to also reflect in the visual or dialogs. Like I said recently on this subject, if someone knock at the door, don't make the player jump to the door. Players who turned the sound off will not understand what happened, precisely because they didn't heard the "knock knock".


How important is the UI in this type of game ? What are some example of favorite UIs
They are 200% important, especially if you effectively go for a sandbox game.

Take a look at the difference between the original stats page of Super Powered :
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and the same information as shown by my mod :
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The feeling the player will get totally depend of the UI. A good looking, intuitive and easy to use UI will always add something to your game. It's the same that what I said above regarding the renders, it can make your game stand over the mass even if the rest is average.


scene transitions - thoughts on that?
Natural and without useless effects. It's the most difficult part of a game, and also a movie. Once again It imply more works for you, but don't hesitate to add one or two additional CG in order to ease the transition and make it less, hmmm, rough ?


Will add more points if people have ideas on that
Just one thing to add: Go for what you feel.
The most important point in a game isn't everything you said above, but the passion you've for your game.
By itself it's not enough to make a hit, but it's what make the difference between two games that, globally, share the same story, the same game mechanism, and the same quality. Not only people can excuse many things from a dev that clearly do it with passion, but it's also generally felt while playing the game and it make it a little more enjoyable. And this, the player's enjoyment, is the most important point. You can make an average game, with a cheap story and use Sims for the CG, if you're passionate, if this passion is visible while playing, you'll find your public.



P.S. Should I add tags to this post like VB and RenPy ?
No. Even if you're planing to use Ren'py to make the game, what you ask are generic questions that apply whatever the engine.
 

ihl86

Member
Dec 8, 2019
375
1,298
You shouldn't even include the MC thoughts in it. They should be shown to the player, whatever through the dialog or the visual, not fed to him ; this as much as possible. Depending of your own skills, it's not always avoidable, but it should be limited to the strict minimal.
In real life we don't read mind. In place, we interpret the reactions of the person, and try to read through what this person say. The same should be done in a game. This especially since you have something that book writers don't have, the visual. It's a big help since if a character is, by example, annoyed by what the MC said, making it frown can be enough to change the tone with which the player will read its next dialog line.
Yet, even in books, you never have more than the MC thoughts. Never you know the thoughts of others characters.


It totally depend of the story, the way you want the player to approach the game, what you mean by "second perspective", and what scenes are concerned by this.
Firstly the story need to permit this, what isn't always the case.
Secondly, it will obviously hurt the immersion, so it don't necessarily fit with a first person POV. Even with a third person POV, it will not works if you want your story and game to be immersive.
Thirdly, if it's to show use the scene a second time, but from the point of view of another involved character, it's totally useless. The only real difference would be the thoughts of this character, and like I said above, it's something to avoid. It will also show the visual reaction of the MC, but if you need this to show them, then there's a problem since it should be shown in its dialog lines. Plus, you apparently initially intended to show us his thoughts.
Fourthly, and it's the only "do it" point of this list, it can be interesting if it's "meanwhile" scenes. As I said, it will hurt the immersion, since the player will know more than the MC, but it's one of the many ways to avoid having to show a character thoughts. Take the classical "the MC is catch peeping at his mother in the shower". Instead of having a thought line for the mother that would goes like, "oh my god, my son is peeping at me when I'm naked. It's so hot...", you can left the MC at what he's doing, and showing us that, "meanwhile", the mother is in her room, masturbating while whispering her son's name. What can also be done without second perspective, by making the MC pass in front of his mother's bedroom door and hearing her moan like crazy, having the feeling that he sometimes heard his name. Up to you to decide if the "hot" (first option) is more important than the immersion (second option).


Hum, there isn't this much games with effectively "good graphics".
This said, the graphic style don't matter, as long as it fit the story. If, by example, you try to write a serious story and use a cartoon shader it will not works.

As for "good practice" here, don't use things out of the box. It will imply more works for you, but having a character that is yours, even if you just used the basic morphs to change few things here and there, will always be better than having the same
Thank you so much for your feedback.
I removed a lot of the text when I quoted as to not make this look too big. I will respond to some of your points.
Regarding thoughts, if you are reading a book from 3rd person viewpoint, you will almost always read their thoughts. That's what the book is made of. Actions, thoughts and dialog. Then, there are books with multiple viewpoints. Like the Song of Ice and Fire series. We get different viewpoints throughout the book.
I think you are right about the thought of other characters though, when we are in one viewpoint, we should see the thoughts of other characters, since the MC doesn't know what they think, neither should we. The problem is that expressions are really hard to do right and interpret with Daz for example. What some might interpret as flirty, others could interpret completely different. I think now though that I could write it in Mc's thoughts instead of breaking the immersion.
About having a second character to play with, it would definitely not be the same scenes. I would also only doing for a second character (a male). It would be a meanwhile type of situation to further the story, for the players to also understand this character as he is very important to the story and maybe get some sex scenes earlier. That is because the MC will not get any lewd stuff for a while and some people might get discouraged if they play for 30 minutes or longer without anything sexy but a shower or something.
Regarding the graphics, I realize some people do some post work in photoshop or something and that really enhances the images. Take for example Milfy City, from a technical standpoint, there are plenty of games with better renders but those kind of stand out. I can't really explain why. I thought maybe there is some knowledge I am missing about styles. I would definitely go for a realistic look as my story is going from somewhat normal to dark. I am sure some stylized images could also work, if done properly but I am not sure what that style should be. Maybe I should look at some games that go for that look (normal ones, not adult) to see if I can't capture the essence.
Regarding my Characters, I agree with you that they should stand out. I hate it when I see the same character everywhere.
I worked for about a month to make my MC and the main Male. They are done with a combination of morphs plus my own touches in Blender so I am sure they are unique. I will not spend as much time on all the other character, but I will definitely make them my own.
Regarding sound, I totally agree with what you are saying. For most games, I also listen to my own music. I also have sound/voice down to 20% almost always as they rarely add anything to the experience. I also don't like the moans, especially ones that sounds like they are from a porn movie. For some scenes I know exactly what type of audio experience I would want, I am just not sure if I would have the time to do it properly. Or better said, if that time is worth it instead of doing more renders/ better animations or more content. As, with time there is always a trade-off. If my game would take off and I would have enough support, I would definitely hire someone to soundtrack the game properly for me, as I feel everyone should stick to their strong points. We can be Jack of all trades only for so long.
Regarding the UI, I totally agree that if ugly it will be terrible. That is why I'm thinking the more minimal it is, as subtle as possible and transparent where it can be, would work best. That would also save me some time instead of spending hours to design something really good looking.
Regarding scene transition, I was actually just realizing something about myself today when playing these type of game. When there is a dialog in one of these games, unless the graphics are really amazing I actually rarely look to see all the small differences in expressions or mouth open/closed, eyebrows raised. A few good expressions when they matter and add something to the dialog matter but if they just vary so there isn't a single image, it doesn't impress me nor do I really care about it. I am wondering if others are the same regarding this.
Regarding testing the characters under all the lights sounds like a really good idea. I can't believe I didn't think about it. I noticed it while creating my main characters that different lights will make the skins shaders look in different ways but I never thought to establish my lighting everywhere before and test them out before starting. I would think though that it is easier to change the lighting to match the skin, that having a shader that looks good in any light.

I am so glad I restarted my research and came on this forum, it is giving me the hype that I need to reboost my game development, because as I said, some personal issues really took me out of that mindframe.