Porn Game Replayability?

[Nikolas-Ambross]

Hello everyone!
I have a question that I'm hoping will shed some insight into what everyone likes about certain games. What makes a Porn game fun and replayable? Quality of the Porn is one thing but I'm talking deeper than that. What makes you go back to some of your favorite porn games? Expand this into some of the things you may dislike about the same game and what would make it even better.

I'll start off!
Trap Quest
Personally I enjoy its difficulty and a lot of its lewd content is fairly up my alley, its extremely customize-able in the beginning and allows for different ways to play every game.
I don't enjoy traps, or MtF transformation if I can avoid it, there's nothing wrong with liking them though. Happily it is able to be customized through the title screen itself so its not much
of an issue.
The real problem of the game I believe is a certain amount of aimlessness to it. There is a main goal of getting out of the virtual game itself, but while in the game it drifts along until you're either fucked into brainlessness or ready to defeat the bosses. Sure that gives player agency but I would like a little more push to go floor to floor other than needing to find more items.
The art-styles of the game are slightly off putting to me as well but it is not a deal breaker.
What Trap Quest needs for a better enjoyable experience is a little more of a quest-like structure when you are actually within the game, it seems to be going in that direction but its mostly curses or consequences for certain actions instead of something that just pops up naturally while playing.

 

[polywog]

There are too many good books out there, to read one of them over and over again. So, while story based games are not a bad thing, they lack the replayability of open world sandbox gameplay, which can be endless, based on a series of interrelated, or independent short stories, rather than one finite path.
That's just my opinion. Other people may prefer monogamy, married to the same game year after, mindless repetition, sex in the missionary position, and being cuckold.

 

[Zippity]

Well, when I grew up I loved reading the Choose Your Own Adventure style novels in the school library... I also grew up with and still enjoy table top role play games... Something about being presented with choices and options, is what makes a book and/or game replayable... So when a VN/Game has lots of varying story arcs, dependent on the choices you make, as to how the story will either just play out, or possibly even having plausible multiple endings, is what adds that little spark of replayability to a story being told in one of these Visual Novels and/or Games... The key element though is ensuring there are enough choices and variance between each play though that you feel the differences... If the choices lead to very little over all variance between each play through, then it really doesn't have replay value... Regardless if it may seem like it does since choices were even offered...

The trouble for any developer when trying to go out of their way to offer up replayability in their work/s, revolves primarily around continuity and story flow... As the more variance you add through choices creating different story paths, content changes, and/or character interactions based on those choices, the higher the risk of the story not having the feeling of consistent connectivity... And it may also impact the flow of the story, causing some reader/player confusion and/or even creating plot holes... It takes a lot of work to keep the maze of varying story arcs, character dialogue interactions, inner-monologue, and so on straight, as the choices veer things off in several different directions... Like a spider web...

It's rare that I've even run into a VN/Game in this market that does a really good job with that... Many of the times, I run into inconsistencies, plot holes, and story confusion... Because it can become a highly complex juggling act for the developer/s...

It's why you tend to see more linear story telling, or a linear main story with some brief off-shoot stories that don't have much impact on the main story, or you see just a small handful of branching off-shoot story lines (based on choice) that eventually all lead back to the same point of the main story at some later moment...

In some VN/Games I've tried, the developer may offer up lots of options, but in the end there really isn't much replayability, because many of the choices made no concrete difference in how the main story played out... In some of those cases it was more like the illusion of choice, either because they don't really know how to properly create that type of complexity, or possibly are unwilling to give it a real try, or perhaps they just wanted to offer brief side content in the first place, or perhaps they just want to draw in more players/readers using "choices" that have no impact as a ploy... The list goes on...

Zip

 

[khumak]

I generally find sandbox games and other nonlinear formats to have the most replayability because they're more likely to let you do something significantly different than before. You're less likely to be forced down a fairly narrow path. I find that VNs tend to have a better story overall but once I've played it once or twice there's not as much reason to play it again since I've already done everything you can do and there really isn't a different path to take.

Sandbox games also tend to be more likely to let you replay the scenes you like the most multiple times and either skip the scenes you don't like as much or just do them once and move on to the scenes you like better. So it tends to be easier to customize a playthrough to focus on the stuff you like the most and minimize the stuff you don't like as well.

 

[Mr. Lemonade]

Secrets. Most of the open adult games had plenty of secrets for players who dug a bit deeper. I loved that.

 

[Karnon254332]

Hello everyone!
I have a question that I'm hoping will shed some insight into what everyone likes about certain games. What makes a Porn game fun and replayable? Quality of the Porn is one thing but I'm talking deeper than that. What makes you go back to some of your favorite porn games? Expand this into some of the things you may dislike about the same game and what would make it even better.

I'll start off!
Trap Quest
Personally I enjoy its difficulty and a lot of its lewd content is fairly up my alley, its extremely customize-able in the beginning and allows for different ways to play every game.
I don't enjoy traps, or MtF transformation if I can avoid it, there's nothing wrong with liking them though. Happily it is able to be customized through the title screen itself so its not much
of an issue.
The real problem of the game I believe is a certain amount of aimlessness to it. There is a main goal of getting out of the virtual game itself, but while in the game it drifts along until you're either fucked into brainlessness or ready to defeat the bosses. Sure that gives player agency but I would like a little more push to go floor to floor other than needing to find more items.
The art-styles of the game are slightly off putting to me as well but it is not a deal breaker.
What Trap Quest needs for a better enjoyable experience is a little more of a quest-like structure when you are actually within the game, it seems to be going in that direction but its mostly curses or consequences for certain actions instead of something that just pops up naturally while playing.

Since porn games ARE porn, being aesthetically pleasing is an obvious must in terms of being playable, let alone re-playable. As a player who loves a good story as much as I love a good blast, a story that is at least decent will be a major reason for me to replay a game (porn or not). I think some examples are in order.

Cockwork Industries: Insider
To me, this game is the current epitome of style over substance among adult games. Its artwork are stunning, animations are beautiful and the voice acting is commendable. However, since the game's premise is very simple, there is little replay value beyond unlocking different endings and gallery artwork. In fact, here's a compilation if some of you can't be bothered to find out whether the time and effort would be worth it:

You must be registered to see the links

Double Homework
Another episodic adult game by Palmer, this series is currently one of my favourites. The story may not be for everyone, but the episodic formula gives Palmer plenty of time to shift focus from character to character, giving them some decent character development over time. The least enjoyable part of this game would be the gaming engine, which is to me, less user-friendly than Ren'Py.

Depraved Awakening
In short, this game is awesome and if you are a fan of the Noir genre, I definitely recommend you to play it.

 

[Zippity]

I generally find sandbox games and other nonlinear formats to have the most replayability because they're more likely to let you do something significantly different than before. You're less likely to be forced down a fairly narrow path. I find that VNs tend to have a better story overall but once I've played it once or twice there's not as much reason to play it again since I've already done everything you can do and there really isn't a different path to take.

Sandbox games also tend to be more likely to let you replay the scenes you like the most multiple times and either skip the scenes you don't like as much or just do them once and move on to the scenes you like better. So it tends to be easier to customize a playthrough to focus on the stuff you like the most and minimize the stuff you don't like as well.

I agree with pretty much all of that...

But another misnomer in this industry and the general gaming industry is the label of "Sandbox"... In reality, there are maybe less then 1% of these games in this niche industry that are true Sandbox style games... Most are just freedom of choice or semi-open world, but in no way an actual Sandbox... It's a power word that many game developers, regardless of industry, like to throw around as an advertising ploy to pull in more players/readers/buyers/etc... A true Sandbox is, just as the word implies, being able to alter the environment to your liking and/or being able to create things openly in that environment, in some ways... Such as with games like Minecraft or online worlds such as Secondlife... Same thing goes for "Open World" as it is also typically used as set of power words... In this industry you sometimes see Map Navigation referred to as "Open World" when in reality it is just a series of very set map choices... Not a vast free roaming game environment that you can move around in without loading screens or general restriction, such as with many MMORPG's or 3D world environments... I would associate the choice based navigation more towards being called what it is, Map Navigation or Open Choice and NOT Open World...

But I don't want to stray too far off topic...

Since porn games ARE porn, being aesthetically pleasing is an obvious must in terms of being playable, let alone re-playable. As a player who loves a good story as much as I love a good blast, a story that is at least decent will be a major reason for me to replay a game (porn or not). I think some examples are in order.

Yes this is an offshoot of the regular Porn Industry, but it is a mix of various forms... Not all necessarily generated with the intent to be just as B-Rated in quality as most Porn that exists... Yes, some developers just make their products for the Porn value, and they will never be much better then standard B-Rated porn... But, many others also are trying to add further entertainment value beyond any of the erotic content they portray... More in line with what you might get from reading a steamy romance novel... That is what makes this niche of the industry so much better and entertaining... Yes, you have to look hard sometimes to find those diamonds in the ruff, but they are out there... In their various designs, intentions, qualities, etc... I would not call all of these Visual Novels and Games as being Porn either, because of the variances between them all... It's why I refer to this niche of the industry as Erotic/Adult and not Porn... Yes, when I review VN/Games I may describe some as being more in-line with typical b-rated porn or claiming it is a porn fest, but that is a reference to quality and comparable style, more so then throwing them all into the same labelled box as normal porn... Unless that is all it aspires/appears to be...

The replay value of most VN/Games in this industry is really not there... Only a few more highly complex VN/Games I've run into felt deserving of a full replay, depending on the variance between play through's... As you mentioned, most erotic Visual Novels do have a tendency to be linear and/or somewhat linear in scope, and even if they present choices there may not be enough story variance to have enough replay value to warrant reading/playing a majority of the same content multiple times... So with most VN's I only end up going through it once, although sometimes I'll save game at a choice and maybe go back later to see what the other choice presented... But usually it's just one play through and done... Even most Navigation style grinders tend to have mostly linear story progressions... And really it's because it's easier to develop linear content, and maybe perhaps add some brief side content (choice or not) now and then to spice things up... But really no replay value... And I really don't mind that too much in this industry... It's not like a vast RPG where you have literally thousands of quests, many various zones to explore, and so on... And therefore can raise different characters in varying combinations... Or a Real Time Strategy game where you can have varying outcomes each time you replay it... Those types of games are designed around replay value... A vast majority of this industries VN/Games are just not meant to work like that, even when they present the illusion that they are...

Zip

 

[khumak]

I agree with pretty much all of that...

But another misnomer in this industry and the general gaming industry is the label of "Sandbox"... In reality, there are maybe less then 1% of these games in this niche industry that are true Sandbox style games... Most are just freedom of choice or semi-open world, but in no way an actual Sandbox... It's a power word that many game developers, regardless of industry, like to throw around as an advertising ploy to pull in more players/readers/buyers/etc... A true Sandbox is, just as the word implies, being able to alter the environment to your liking and/or being able to create things openly in that environment, in some ways... Such as with games like Minecraft or online worlds such as Secondlife... Same thing goes for "Open World" as it is also typically used as set of power words... In this industry you sometimes see Map Navigation referred to as "Open World" when in reality it is just a series of very set map choices... Not a vast free roaming game environment that you can move around in without loading screens or general restriction, such as with many MMORPG's or 3D world environments... I would associate the choice based navigation more towards being called what it is, Map Navigation or Open Choice and NOT Open World...

But I don't want to stray too far off topic...

Yeah I don't get too caught up in the semantics. Everyone calls them sandbox so I do too even if it might not be the most accurate term. I think most of the best "sandbox" games are not truely open world either. In a true open world you can do literally anything that's implemented in the game from the moment you start. You could go straight to the final encounter that ends the game 10 seconds in if you wanted. Presumably you would fail that encounter because you're not ready for it but you'd be allowed to try.

Using the example of an RPG game you could go fight that final level 50 boss with your level 1 character but he'll 1 shot you and nothing you could conceivably do would even scratch him. Or it could be as simple as a locked door leading there and you don't have the key yet...

Take a game like Long Live the Princess as an example of a game that has both sandbox and VN elements and IMO does a great job of blending the two. It has a map where you can go to anywhere you've unlocked. Almost all of the events are repeatable. Many of these events are impossible to get the best scene initially but you can still try and fail whenever you want. The scenes you like the best, you can repeat if you want. There is also a fairly in depth story that unfolds as you uncover the secrets of all the different characters.

These hybrid games tend to be my favorites because you get some of the best aspects of both. I get some of the story aspects of the VN while getting the freedom of choice from the sandbox aspect.

Many of the games that are sandbox only replace story with grind which I rarely find appealing. I think there's a right way to do grind to actually make it fun but most games fail at it. The prime example would again be an RPG. XP is the grind but you get that by fighting enemies, which if the game is any good, is fun. I think a lot of sandbox devs forget the fact that in a game, the whole point is fun.

If you're going to focus on grind then you need to find some way to make it fun. It can be challenging but it shouldn't feel like work. I should be rewarded with new items or cutscenes or sex scenes or whatever when I do a bit of grinding. I should find out some new secret when I defeat some enemy. If you're not doling out little rewards here and there for grinding then it's not fun, it's just annoying.

 

[Zippity]

Yeah I don't get too caught up in the semantics. Everyone calls them sandbox so I do too even if it might not be the most accurate term. I think most of the best "sandbox" games are not truely open world either. In a true open world you can do literally anything that's implemented in the game from the moment you start. You could go straight to the final encounter that ends the game 10 seconds in if you wanted. Presumably you would fail that encounter because you're not ready for it but you'd be allowed to try.

Using the example of an RPG game you could go fight that final level 50 boss with your level 1 character but he'll 1 shot you and nothing you could conceivably do would even scratch him. Or it could be as simple as a locked door leading there and you don't have the key yet...

Take a game like Long Live the Princess as an example of a game that has both sandbox and VN elements and IMO does a great job of blending the two. It has a map where you can go to anywhere you've unlocked. Almost all of the events are repeatable. Many of these events are impossible to get the best scene initially but you can still try and fail whenever you want. The scenes you like the best, you can repeat if you want. There is also a fairly in depth story that unfolds as you uncover the secrets of all the different characters.

These hybrid games tend to be my favorites because you get some of the best aspects of both. I get some of the story aspects of the VN while getting the freedom of choice from the sandbox aspect.

Many of the games that are sandbox only replace story with grind which I rarely find appealing. I think there's a right way to do grind to actually make it fun but most games fail at it. The prime example would again be an RPG. XP is the grind but you get that by fighting enemies, which if the game is any good, is fun. I think a lot of sandbox devs forget the fact that in a game, the whole point is fun.

If you're going to focus on grind then you need to find some way to make it fun. It can be challenging but it shouldn't feel like work. I should be rewarded with new items or cutscenes or sex scenes or whatever when I do a bit of grinding. I should find out some new secret when I defeat some enemy. If you're not doling out little rewards here and there for grinding then it's not fun, it's just annoying.

I think that in some ways on average we're beginning to see some of those Grind style VN/Games attempting now and then to get away from the high repetitive grind, and go with a more low/moderate repetitive grind... There have been a few (lately) where I only had a small amount of repeating grind prior to experiencing new content, or opening up new story progression, etc... Yes, there are still some today, even new ones, that still have far too much meaningless grind elements... It's usually a highly mixed bag with the Map Navigation freedom of choice style game play...

I've also run into many VN/Games, where the map navigation feels pointless... Especially when the major amount of content is linear... It's as though the map navigation aspects are just an illusion of choice freedom... Same goes for some VN/Games that use stat grinding to such a degree that you end up spending far more time navigating around trying to find what step is needed next, perhaps repeating a step over and over to build a stat, then the length of content that opens up once you reach that required stat... So a majority of the play time is spent doing either meaningless and repetitive things, or it's spent wasting time trying to figure out what needs to even be done, just to open up that next step of content...

Sometimes, especially early on in development, you run into a stat grinder and/or navigation style VN/Game that allows you to keep stat building or navigating around everywhere, when there is nothing further to open up, yet nothing clued you into that fact... You may end up wasting time in your life doing something for nothing... And then the next update doesn't allow old saves anyway, so that extra stat grinding was, even more so, just a waste of time...

Zip

 

[SalaciousMandate]

The trouble for any developer when trying to go out of their way to offer up replayability in their work/s, revolves primarily around continuity and story flow... As the more variance you add through choices creating different story paths, content changes, and/or character interactions based on those choices, the higher the risk of the story not having the feeling of consistent connectivity... And it may also impact the flow of the story, causing some reader/player confusion and/or even creating plot holes... It takes a lot of work to keep the maze of varying story arcs, character dialogue interactions, inner-monologue, and so on straight, as the choices veer things off in several different directions... Like a spider web...

This entirely. I'm working on a text based game with a lot of player choice and it is a ton of work. I love games where you can try things in different and unexpected ways and be rewarded with a unique scene or dialogue taking your choices into account. I'm pretty good a keeping track of the choices, but it's amazing how many variations are caused by a couple of minor divergences.

And even when I know I've taken into account all of the options, I'll have messed up an if statement or variable name somewhere and the wrong text will display. So there's the technical aspect too.

 

[Nikolas-Ambross]

Hello everyone, Great to see all the responses.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

I think that in some ways on average we're beginning to see some of those Grind style VN/Games attempting now and then to get away from the high repetitive grind, and go with a more low/moderate repetitive grind... There have been a few (lately) where I only had a small amount of repeating grind prior to experiencing new content, or opening up new story progression, etc... Yes, there are still some today, even new ones, that still have far too much meaningless grind elements... It's usually a highly mixed bag with the Map Navigation freedom of choice style game play...

Sometimes, especially early on in development, you run into a stat grinder and/or navigation style VN/Game that allows you to keep stat building or navigating around everywhere, when there is nothing further to open up, yet nothing clued you into that fact... You may end up wasting time in your life doing something for nothing... And then the next update doesn't allow old saves anyway, so that extra stat grinding was, even more so, just a waste of time...

That is a very good point, Grind really does make the prospect of replaying a game very daunting. Just recently I wanted to go through the hard mode of Cursed Armor and by God that is a mistake unless you cheat it. The grind to get your companions to level up to match the opponents you're fighting is never ending and will take you days to get through, its just not worth it for what you get at the end of it all.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

In some VN/Games I've tried, the developer may offer up lots of options, but in the end there really isn't much replayability, because many of the choices made no concrete difference in how the main story played out... In some of those cases it was more like the illusion of choice

You see I think that's just a problem with main story games in general, The illusion of choice is something that can slightly be done well but after the 2nd or 3rd playthrough the charade is over. Even mainline gaming nowadays has this problem where if they want a "Main Quest" all the choices you make will end up with one final main choice that isn't dependent on what your journey has been. Mass Effect 3's ending comes to mind.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

Sandbox games also tend to be more likely to let you replay the scenes you like the most multiple times and either skip the scenes you don't like as much or just do them once and move on to the scenes you like better. So it tends to be easier to customize a playthrough to focus on the stuff you like the most and minimize the stuff you don't like as well.

I like sandbox games for what they try to do, they offer a large amount of freedom at the cost of the time and energy of the developer. The problem with this type of game is that in my experience, the situations don't change at all depending on whether you've done them before or not. There's only so many times you can reread something or re-see something. Usually the best sandboxes are ones where the Dev has put so many man-hours into it that its variety outclasses what you'll end up seeing again and again. Those are somewhat rarer in the genre unfortunately.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

Secrets. Most of the open adult games had plenty of secrets for players who dug a bit deeper. I loved that.

That is a very good point! I think this goes hand in hand with a achievement system inside of a game. Especially if the achievements give you something for completing them. There's nothing more satisfying than running into something secret the first time and wondering if there were more.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

Since porn games ARE porn, being aesthetically pleasing is an obvious must in terms of being playable, let alone re-playable. As a player who loves a good story as much as I love a good blast, a story that is at least decent will be a major reason for me to replay a game (porn or not). I think some examples are in order.

Thank you for the examples, I'll be sure to check them out when I have time. Good stories definitely stick with you better than most other options, although I have to say that if the game-play isn't great you'll have a harder time throwing yourself into another play-through. Virtual Novels are something I can't really understand, the game-play is somewhat minimal which is great for Porn but it makes it to where you don't really do much other than read and look at pictures. I've heard some VN's have wondrous game-play on the other hand though so I guess it depends...
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

[Zippity]

This entirely. I'm working on a text based game with a lot of player choice and it is a ton of work. I love games where you can try things in different and unexpected ways and be rewarded with a unique scene or dialogue taking your choices into account. I'm pretty good a keeping track of the choices, but it's amazing how many variations are caused by a couple of minor divergences.

And even when I know I've taken into account all of the options, I'll have messed up an if statement or variable name somewhere and the wrong text will display. So there's the technical aspect too.

Exactly... I've seen many examples of erotic VN/Games that tried to add this sort of complexity, and depending on paths chosen by the player/reader, plot holes pop up or an event makes no sense because the historical context makes no sense due to some information the reader never experienced being referred back to, and so on... If I had to think of a prime example for a highly complex VN/Game, where it is pretty much done right, would be Good Girl Gone Bad... It is completely filled with a ton of choice, some don't really matter much while most tend to matter quite a bit... You can go through that VN/Game multiple times and have a somewhat varying experience each time, with very little (if any) issues at all... But that took a crap ton of time and effort to do it right...

Zip

 

[Mr. Lemonade]

But another misnomer in this industry and the general gaming industry is the label of "Sandbox"... In reality, there are maybe less then 1% of these games in this niche industry that are true Sandbox style games... Most are just freedom of choice or semi-open world, but in no way an actual Sandbox... It's a power word that many game developers, regardless of industry, like to throw around as an advertising ploy to pull in more players/readers/buyers/etc... A true Sandbox is, just as the word implies, being able to alter the environment to your liking and/or being able to create things openly in that environment, in some ways... Such as with games like Minecraft or online worlds such as Secondlife... Same thing goes for "Open World" as it is also typically used as set of power words... In this industry you sometimes see Map Navigation referred to as "Open World" when in reality it is just a series of very set map choices... Not a vast free roaming game environment that you can move around in without loading screens or general restriction, such as with many MMORPG's or 3D world environments... I would associate the choice based navigation more towards being called what it is, Map Navigation or Open Choice and NOT Open World...

I've noticed this too. It's a shame too because people might start to ignore words like "open world" or "sandbox" in general in the western erotic gaming space because they just don't seem to mean anything anymore.

It's great if you're developing a smaller more linear game. Nothing to be ashamed of. Some gamers actually prefer that style to a large sandbox style game anyway because developers don't have to make so many narrative compromises.

 

[khumak]

Exactly... I've seen many examples of erotic VN/Games that tried to add this sort of complexity, and depending on paths chosen by the player/reader, plot holes pop up or an event makes no sense because the historical context makes no sense due to some information the reader never experienced being referred back to, and so on... If I had to think of a prime example for a highly complex VN/Game, where it is pretty much done right, would be Good Girl Gone Bad... It is completely filled with a ton of choice, some don't really matter much while most tend to matter quite a bit... You can go through that VN/Game multiple times and have a somewhat varying experience each time, with very little (if any) issues at all... But that took a crap ton of time and effort to do it right...

Zip

Personally, I think the best way to improve playability for most games is to have choices diverge into more than 1 scene that are different but where both are rewarding enough to want to see them. Then have both choices reconverge back into a common path later (not necessarily at the same point).

So instead of looking at choices like branches on a tree where once you take 1 path, every other path is closed off, it's more like the tip of every branch reconnects to the trunk of the tree at some point. So you can pick different branches that lead to different scenes without having to write an entirely unique storyline from start to finish for each branch.

Some branches can be longer than others so while one choice might reconverge late enough to block off a path you like, a different branch might reconverge sooner and allow you to see both scenes.

The reconvergence is the key to making the workload manageable. Having both choices lead to scenes you actually want to see where neither of them leads to a bad ending is the key to making people want to go back and actually retry all of those different options.

If one choice leads to a game over/bad ending then that's basically a wasted choice. That bad ending would have to be an amazing scene for me to want to see it more than once, especially since it literally ends the game. I'm not saying there should never be a game over/bad ending but IMO it should be extremely rare and it should be pretty obvious how big of a fuck up you're making that leads to it.

VNs generally score low on the replayability scale for being too linear. Sandbox games tend to have the opposite issue where there really isn't much of a story line. In a lot of cases there isn't really even a goal, you're just kind of fucking around aimlessly. The only real goal is more of a player imposed goal of seeing how many girls he can fuck or something rather than a real story.

Some popular AAA games even suffer from this. For instance The Sims is pretty popular. I could never get into it because there's just no story or goal. You're literally just fucking around doing whatever you want with no end in sight. It wouldn't have even been hard to fix it for me.

You could literally have just had a randomly generated goal and I would have been happy working towards it. For instance, you start the game and the goal is to populate the town with aliens. That would be a difficult but interesting goal. Most people would probably want an option to actually pick the goal if there was one and that's fine as well. But at least then there is a winning condition.

 

[Zippity]

Personally, I think the best way to improve playability for most games is to have choices diverge into more than 1 scene that are different but where both are rewarding enough to want to see them. Then have both choices reconverge back into a common path later (not necessarily at the same point).

So instead of looking at choices like branches on a tree where once you take 1 path, every other path is closed off, it's more like the tip of every branch reconnects to the trunk of the tree at some point. So you can pick different branches that lead to different scenes without having to write an entirely unique storyline from start to finish for each branch.

Some branches can be longer than others so while one choice might reconverge late enough to block off a path you like, a different branch might reconverge sooner and allow you to see both scenes.

The reconvergence is the key to making the workload manageable. Having both choices lead to scenes you actually want to see where neither of them leads to a bad ending is the key to making people want to go back and actually retry all of those different options.

If one choice leads to a game over/bad ending then that's basically a wasted choice. That bad ending would have to be an amazing scene for me to want to see it more than once, especially since it literally ends the game. I'm not saying there should never be a game over/bad ending but IMO it should be extremely rare and it should be pretty obvious how big of a fuck up you're making that leads to it.

VNs generally score low on the replayability scale for being too linear. Sandbox games tend to have the opposite issue where there really isn't much of a story line. In a lot of cases there isn't really even a goal, you're just kind of fucking around aimlessly. The only real goal is more of a player imposed goal of seeing how many girls he can fuck or something rather than a real story.

Some popular AAA games even suffer from this. For instance The Sims is pretty popular. I could never get into it because there's just no story or goal. You're literally just fucking around doing whatever you want with no end in sight. It wouldn't have even been hard to fix it for me.

You could literally have just had a randomly generated goal and I would have been happy working towards it. For instance, you start the game and the goal is to populate the town with aliens. That would be a difficult but interesting goal. Most people would probably want an option to actually pick the goal if there was one and that's fine as well. But at least then there is a winning condition.

I agree, if a developer wants to avoid extreme complexity in the story telling, while still wanting to offer up some choice options, have the choices involve just a flavor of change to how an event plays out but all the choices at that moment still end up back on the main story path... Technically it's still a linear story, but it did add a little bit of variation... Perhaps add just a little bit of complexity, that even though the main story is pretty much linear with those flavor based choices, you could have all those choices also effect the final outcome at the end, with multiple endings... Yes it's still sort of linear, but there was some variety and tiny amount of replay value added...

As to The Sims, it was never really meant to have end goals other then ones you personally set... The only real goal system in the game, even today, is things like maxing out a career, life achievements, maxing out skills, etc... The biggest issue these days, is that it costs a ton of money to buy all the various expansions and mini-expansions if you want the most available choices and goals... Otherwise, yes, I never thought of it as a long term game... I just play it, maybe, a couple times a year for a few days each time... More as something different to do on occasion...

The VN/Games I do tend to hate though are the ones without end... Where the developer just seems to perpetually be developing it over several years time, just adding more and more to it (in many cases just watering it down with more of the same or diluting it and making it less quality then before), and in essence drawing it out unnecessarily... 9 times out of 10 it's usually in order to milk the donation money from fans willing pay them perpetually forever... Visual Novels are just that, a Novel with Visuals... Novels have an end, they need to have an end... Even if it's a cliff hanger for the next novel/book/etc... Games need to have an end goal, something to strive for... If it never ends, it tends to become tedious and boring...

Zip

 

[khumak]

The VN/Games I do tend to hate though are the ones without end... Where the developer just seems to perpetually be developing it over several years time, just adding more and more to it (in many cases just watering it down with more of the same or diluting it and making it less quality then before), and in essence drawing it out unnecessarily... 9 times out of 10 it's usually in order to milk the donation money from fans willing pay them perpetually forever... Visual Novels are just that, a Novel with Visuals... Novels have an end, they need to have an end... Even if it's a cliff hanger for the next novel/book/etc... Games need to have an end goal, something to strive for... If it never ends, it tends to become tedious and boring...

Zip

For me it depends on the quality of the content. If the dev finds a way to wrap up plotlines and finish storylines for the original characters and introduce new storylines and characters that actually fit into the story then I'm fine with that. I think most stories don't really make sense anymore at some point when you try to do that though. Whatever the original theme was, at some point it's run it's course and you should wrap everything up and give us a big finale and then move on to the next game.

To use the typical example of a protagonist who starts off weak and builds up to being the typical badass by the end of the game, once you get to that point you're pretty much restricted to Superman vs Batman type encounters where all of the characters are basically gods. Nobody is normal anymore. Watching Superman curbstomp a lowly burglar or something just isn't interesting because the result is a foregone conclusion.

I think an example of a way a storyline could be made to continue is to build in sort of a changing of the guard scenario where most of the original characters retire or get killed off and replaced with the next generation, or by being defeated by rivals that are then opposed by the new generation of protagonists or something. The story for the original characters is done and now you have basically a new game even though the original one technically didn't end.

There are some TV shows that do this pretty well but it's not very common and it pretty much requires that any characters you don't kill off in this manner can NEVER become so powerful that they can go it alone. They can be strong but they have to be weak enough that if they go in solo they're guaranteed to lose. Basically their team mates are their weakness. Strike Back is a TV series I like that does that. There's a couple of central characters that survive through the entire series but pretty much everyone else dies, is replaced, and then the replacements die, only to be replaced again, etc.

For me the key elements for a story to be able to continue is that there needs to be a protagonist, an antagonist, and a struggle between the two where it always seems like the protagonist is one wrong move away from losing. If either the protagonist or the antagonist ever reaches the point where they're invincible then the story loses all interest. There is no longer a struggle. The outcome is now guaranteed which is boring.

This is why pretty much anything that includes a "Mary Sue" type character is automatically going to suck IMO. There is no way to make that story interesting because there's no way to introduce a struggle.

 

[Nikolas-Ambross]

To use the typical example of a protagonist who starts off weak and builds up to being the typical badass by the end of the game, once you get to that point you're pretty much restricted to Superman vs Batman type encounters where all of the characters are basically gods. Nobody is normal anymore. Watching Superman curbstomp a lowly burglar or something just isn't interesting because the result is a foregone conclusion.

I would say that theres another type of problem with this where the random jobbers are scaled to your level in some way. Its not truly believable that Bandit A is capable and willing to fight the protagonist after a certain amount of time. Yeah Bandit A would have Bandit B with him but numbers don't equal courage when coming up against a Superman level character. This becomes worse when you have to repeatedly come up against the same jobbers.

The only time something like this should happen is when the jobbers have no other choice to go against you, or they are literally unable to understand the threat you pose like with an animal. Having an Antagonist does really help in this situation! Especially if its gotten across that he/she is a bigger fish than you.

 

[Nikolas-Ambross]

As to The Sims, it was never really meant to have end goals other then ones you personally set... The only real goal system in the game, even today, is things like maxing out a career, life achievements, maxing out skills, etc... The biggest issue these days, is that it costs a ton of money to buy all the various expansions and mini-expansions if you want the most available choices and goals... Otherwise, yes, I never thought of it as a long term game... I just play it, maybe, a couple times a year for a few days each time... More as something different to do on occasion...

I'mma go slightly off-topic to my own thread and say that my problem with the Sims is that it's core game-play is basically a needs simulator. I really don't think that translates into a good entertaining time.

For an example that's slightly more on topic would be Girl-Life, you have a daily grind which is frankly just monotonous to me. There is some good stuff in Girl-Life though so I won't fault anyone for liking it either.

 

[Nikolas-Ambross]

Exactly... I've seen many examples of erotic VN/Games that tried to add this sort of complexity, and depending on paths chosen by the player/reader, plot holes pop up or an event makes no sense because the historical context makes no sense due to some information the reader never experienced being referred back to, and so on...

For stuff like VN's I can see where something like a written out framework/outline would be a wonderful benefit. You could visualize your path's and see if they conflict to the story in some way. Then its just up to your writing to make it not conflict at all.

 

[Nikolas-Ambross]

I've noticed this too. It's a shame too because people might start to ignore words like "open world" or "sandbox" in general in the western erotic gaming space because they just don't seem to mean anything anymore.

It's great if you're developing a smaller more linear game. Nothing to be ashamed of. Some gamers actually prefer that style to a large sandbox style game anyway because developers don't have to make so many narrative compromises.

I think for most games where the word "sandbox" is used is perfectly apt. "Open world" is definitely more of a misnomer for a lot of games in this genre. There's not a large amount of them that exist. LifePlay comes to mind as both Sandbox and Open World. Vinfamy is definitely putting work into it, but its got the same problem as the Sims for me.

It has this problem in spades.

Sandbox games tend to have the opposite issue where there really isn't much of a story line. In a lot of cases there isn't really even a goal, you're just kind of fucking around aimlessly. The only real goal is more of a player imposed goal of seeing how many girls he can fuck or something rather than a real story.