Protagonist having a personality or not?

[Syploore]

Hey, everybody. I have a question. How do you feel about the protagonist of a visual novel having his own motivation, possibly different and unknown (at least at the beginning of the story) to the player ? For the protagonist to have secrets yet unknown to the player, and, in general, for the protagonist to have a real personality rather than a player-controlled avatar?

Do you stick to visual novels where the main character is solely the player's avatar and has no personality of his own and serves only as a bridge between the player and the story, or do you prefer the main character to have his own thoughts and motivations, and you make the decisive, important choices to guide him?

p.s I'm asking about a story-driven visual novel on renpy without a sandbox.
Thanks in advance for response.

 

[Semetrika]

Doesn't matter as long it have purpose in game. Some people like blank character and others like character with personality, so all depends on player preferences. Game itself have several elements with which player can stick to play it anyway.
But since you ask about story driven visual novel, then both can be doable if you know how. For example character can still have own personality, but you give player choices, which can match with character mentality.

 

[MarshmallowCasserole]

Good. I'd feel good.

Except for the secrets from the player part. Unreliable narrator can be done, but if the author screws that up and basically "cheats", that is pretty irritating for the reader. I'd say for the inexperienced author the risk is not worth it.

 

[Syploore]

Good. I'd feel good.

Except for the secrets from the player part. Unreliable narrator can be done, but if the author screws that up and basically "cheats", that is pretty irritating for the reader. I'd say for the inexperienced author the risk is not worth it.

I don't mean an unreliable narrator. I mean that the protagonist has secrets that he hides from other characters, but the player doesn't know about them either, since the protagonist doesn't tell anyone about them. He's not lying to the player, it's just that the player can't find out about them until a certain point in time. But they will be shown as flashbacks or hinted at, sort of.

Thank you for your reply tho.

 

[MarshmallowCasserole]

I don't mean an unreliable narrator. I mean that the protagonist has secrets that he hides from other characters, but the player doesn't know about them either, since the protagonist doesn't tell anyone about them. He's not lying to the player, it's just that the player can't find out about them until a certain point in time. But they will be shown as flashbacks or hinted at, sort of.

Sure, if you don't make the player privy to protagonist's thoughts in your prose that would work without any problems.

But imagine you do. That means that when you do reveal the secret, I'm gonna run a mental check against all previous narration and ask whether it made sense for the protag to not think of this detail earlier. A lie by omission is still a lie, so you can't hide something major for a long time. This is easier to do in non-interactive fiction through framing devices, but in games the player's control pushes against the boundaries of these devices, if that makes sense.

 

[Room34]

As long as no inner monologue for 5 minutes per scene

 

[Syploore]

Sure, if you don't make the player privy to protagonist's thoughts in your prose that would work without any problems.

But imagine you do. That means that when you do reveal the secret, I'm gonna run a mental check against all previous narration and ask whether it made sense for the protag to not think of this detail earlier. A lie by omission is still a lie, so you can't hide something major for a long time. This is easier to do in non-interactive fiction through framing devices, but in games the player's control pushes against the boundaries of these devices, if that makes sense.

But what if the protagonist is the narrator, and you can't see his thoughts, but you hear his story. He lies to another character, but you, as the player, know he's lying, but you don't know why and you don't know the full truth. He, the main character, doesn't lie to you, the player, but lies to another character and later, he reveals the truth to you. Does this fall under unreliable narrator or not? And what do you think of this kind of narration?

I know this is very vague and hard to answer without knowing the plot, but still.

 

[Syploore]

As long as no inner monologue for 5 minutes per scene

Yeah, I'm not a fan of that myself. Tried to play Taffy Tales, but there's so much internal monologue that I got tired of reading and stopped playing.

 

[woody554]

would you want to watch a movie with an interesting protagonist or a bland protagonist? this is the same thing.

 

[lemonfreak]

would you want to watch a movie with an interesting protagonist or a bland protagonist? this is the same thing.

Counterpoint, do you want to play as Geralt of Rivia or an Elder Scrolls-esque blank slate?

 

[lemonfreak]

There's nothing inherently wrong with this approach but it requires tight scripting up to the reveal and this requires a fully written story before you write a line of code or render your first image (or draw you first picture/grab your first real porn gif, etc)

You might want to look at The Usual Suspects as an example of a character holding back a certain key piece of information from everyone and how that reveal alters everything else or The Sixth Sense for the way in which everything that led to the reveal could only point to that single outcome and not an alternative

 

[MarshmallowCasserole]

But what if the protagonist is the narrator, and you can't see his thoughts, but you hear his story. He lies to another character, but you, as the player, know he's lying, but you don't know why and you don't know the full truth. He, the main character, doesn't lie to you, the player, but lies to another character and later, he reveals the truth to you. Does this fall under unreliable narrator or not? And what do you think of this kind of narration?

That seems perfectly acceptable on first glance, especially if the player knows some information is withheld.

A way to play on the safer side would be just to open with the admission that it is a story. Just make the opening paragraph of your VN "Bla bla bla and this is my story [how I bla bla bla]." There, now it's explicitly a story, and with it comes the artistic licence.

 

[anne O'nymous]

How do you feel about the protagonist of a visual novel having his own motivation, possibly different and unknown (at least at the beginning of the story) to the player ?

It started so well, why did it had to end so badly ?

Unless you're using "protagonist" while thinking about one of the leading character (like by example the best friend that will do all the dirty works), the protagonist have to have his own motive(s) and it/they have to be known by the player. This doesn't mean that everything have to be fully explained or plainly presented, but it must not be hidden.

Whatever how you'll write it, unless it's an not centered Kinetic Novel (in which case there's not really protagonists), the player will see the story through the eyes of the protagonist. It doesn't matter if the player self immerse or not, if the story is from a first or third point of view, or if there's scenes happening behind the protagonist back. The main part of the story will be presented to the player, and therefore perceived by him, like the protagonist perceive it. It would be a Multiple Personality Disorder move, with a protagonist not knowing himself what his own motives are.

Something most known as "what the fuck is this lame writing ? Dev's drunk or what ?" Because, whatever how effectively good you can be at writing, and whatever how seriously you crafted it, no writer can reveal mid story a protagonist hidden motive and looks like something else than a fool.
For it to feel natural and not seem to be the act of someone who absolutely don't know what he's doing, it needs hints dropped ahead of the revelation. And if there's hints dropped, then it's not different or unknown, it's mysterious.
It's not the same, especially since all the motives starts as mysterious. The player don't fully know the protagonist, and even protagonist don't full know himself.

"I'm helping her because I'm a nice guy" -> "Well to be honest, I'm helping her because I like her" -> "Okay, I'll be honest, I'm in love, it's why I help her".
There's no secret or unknown in that chain of events, nor is there contradiction ; he's helping her because he's a nice guy, that like her, to the point that he's in love with her. And it's possible that, when everything started, the protagonist himself wasn't aware of his real feelings for her.

But it's different with a chain of events that would goes like "I'm helping her because I'm a nice guy" -> "Of course I'm helping her because her parents are bad guys" -> "Gotcha ! I helped your daughter with not other intent than being able to avenge my parents that you killed years ago..."
A story can follow those tracks, but to be coherent (and therefore interesting), the player need to have strong enough hints regarding what happen. He need to know from the starts that the protagonist parents have been killed, and that he expect to avenge them soon or later. Like the story need to drop hints that the girl's parents aren't really clear, then that they are bad persons, then that they can possibly be responsible for the said killing.

Else, as I said above, not a single player will believe that you are something else that a really bad writer who absolutely don't know what he's doing.
Even a game as infamous, due to its way to numerous deus ex machina-like moves, as WVM, give us some hints. When, by example, MC's real mother save her son, running the car into his aggressors, we previously know that he's adopted, and we have suspicions that his real mother is possibly really near, keeping an eye on him or trying to enter in contact with him.
Her saving the day is a deus ex machina-like move, but her being near enough to intervene isn't much a surprise.

In a story, there should be no secrets, just mysteries that slowly unveil, through hints, in front of the reader/player.
A motive can be different than how it was initially presented, but the player must be in position to uncover this before the big reveal party, or at least to look back at what he know and see the hints he missed/misred.

 

[Ying Ko]

Most negative reactions arise when there is a conflict between the player character and the player, be it personality, action and/or motivation. As long as the player and the player characters are “on the same page” there should be no problems with an explicit personality.

 

[chainedpanda]

The point of a protagonist without personality is an attempt to incorporate a sense of immersion into the story. The general idea is to allow players to self-insert themselves into the story. Many players actively, and successfully do this. It's one of the primary reasons why so many people have volatile reactions to specific kinks.

However, this approach is simply incorrect. The truth is that people do not self-insert their self into the game, but rather their "ideal self". It's the reason why a 40-year-old fat guy can immerse himself into the character of a fit 18-year-old. I think there are more advantages for having a character with a personality than not. There are limitations however. If the character is too far away from the players "self", than that player could potentially have a negative reaction.

My biggest suggestion is that you "wipe the slate clean" so to speak. Give the character personality and a backstory, but start the game clean. Don't start the game with the protagonist already having several relationships, or if you do, don't make them important romantic ones. Furthermore, only provide a general motivation. Allow the player to fill in gaps with their own imagination.

 

[Count Morado]

I don't mean an unreliable narrator. I mean that the protagonist has secrets that he hides from other characters, but the player doesn't know about them either, since the protagonist doesn't tell anyone about them. He's not lying to the player, it's just that the player can't find out about them until a certain point in time. But they will be shown as flashbacks or hinted at, sort of.

Thank you for your reply tho.

No. Don't make it first person. Make it third person limited narrative. Otherwise, you are dangerously close to the unreliable narrator trope and you will create more friction for your players against your game through it.

Also, a first person narrative that harbors secrets is not only difficult to successfully pull off but does not, in the end, endear the protagonist to the player.

This is advice I would give a student in a fiction writing workshop, as well.

 

[Uglyvirgin]

I prefer main characters with a defined personality that resonates well with the story being told. To be able to execute a story to its best iteration, its elements need to complement well with it, this includes character.

So yeah whether your MC has a personality or not needs to be purposeful, but in my opinion stories with generic nothing characters are a dime a dozen and aren't capable of eliciting interesting or compelling interactions resulting in boring dialogue and story. There are many complaints regarding characters leaning on the cliche or lacking personality.

Though I will admit there are occasions in which a blank slate would be the best option if you structured your story and game around it, or if you're simply not capable of writing a compelling MC. The problem is many of us are amateur writers, approaching with caution and embracing simplicity might be the best decision for some. You are also exposed to the risk of writing a completely insufferable character, having the player getting stuck with them the whole game completely ruining the experience. An author's idea of cool or interesting often falls flat for me.

 

[Hypocryte72]

Villainous protag for me, does not matter if he's handsome or not lol. Generic meek/potential type protag is a no-go for me.
As long as he can carry himself and not become like a kid when opposed is good enough, makes the story intriguing.

 

[ronron74]

Because VN is more likely a linear storyline, generally I would put myself into their shoes. But there are a lot of stories out there that can handle messed up character, it all depends on the presentation and point of view of how it's written.

So to answer your question, I prefer blank or no personality at all rather than having a ride with a character that I dont like. But if it's done right or if the character is what I like, it would work too.

Blank is less risky, any character driven is a hit or miss

 

[NeonSelf]

If MC is not a pushover or social imbecile - sure it will be cool.
But I hate games where MC acts like moron or weakling.

Making MC without personality is impossible. Even if MC stays silent, his pose, clothes and actions tell alot about him.

About his secrets - MC should have no secrets from the player. I need to know everything he knows to understand his motives and make right decisions.