- Apr 9, 2019
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Public Opinion & Sandbox Games
- Thread starter Monstrous Moonshine
- Start date
- Jun 3, 2017
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Personally I don't feel they add anything to the game, other than time wasted clicking around looking for triggers, or repeating the same actions over and over. Best case scenario for free roam/sandbox for me is that it's an annoyance.
I quite dislike when they put them in the middle of VNs, like AOA Academy and similar, because if you want to see different routes, you have to replay the game, but you can't just skip through the the bits you've already seen, you now have to do this stupid click around and talk to people and make sure you open your phone to read messages over and over and over again.
And other times just seem like a collection of unrelated single character short stories that don't interact with each other, and I don't find that terribly interesting.
I quite dislike when they put them in the middle of VNs, like AOA Academy and similar, because if you want to see different routes, you have to replay the game, but you can't just skip through the the bits you've already seen, you now have to do this stupid click around and talk to people and make sure you open your phone to read messages over and over and over again.
And other times just seem like a collection of unrelated single character short stories that don't interact with each other, and I don't find that terribly interesting.
- Mar 15, 2021
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As a sandbox dev my idea it's to bring the feeling that you are part of this world, with good history, characters that know each other even without player influence for example in my game the captain Emily knows the mobster Edgar but she can arrest, for now, no hard grinding this kills the game, no repetitive actions like 5 kiss to get a hand job then 5x handjobs to get a blowjob.
But the main thing is: "Let the player takes his own decisions" no routes have to be mandatory for you to complete the ultimate goal. in somatra my game it leaves the prison how you'll do that it is up to you.
This is more-less my vision of a sandbox game.
i hope even the people who don't like the sandbox-style give a chance to somatra
But the main thing is: "Let the player takes his own decisions" no routes have to be mandatory for you to complete the ultimate goal. in somatra my game it leaves the prison how you'll do that it is up to you.
This is more-less my vision of a sandbox game.
i hope even the people who don't like the sandbox-style give a chance to somatra
Sandbox games are great if done well. Unfortunately most of the time they are not done well.
An easy workaround is to have multiple saves before a route defining choice, whether in a VN or sandbox. After you see the route, you can always reload the save and see the other route you missed without replaying the entire game from the beginning.
This is not exclusive to sandbox games. VNs that actually have real choices, you still have to replay the game or part of the game, to see the other route(s).
An easy workaround is to have multiple saves before a route defining choice, whether in a VN or sandbox. After you see the route, you can always reload the save and see the other route you missed without replaying the entire game from the beginning.
My issue is that with a straightforward VN, I can just skip my way through the text to get the choices I want to do differently and take it from there, with the free roam elements that is significantly slowed down because I have to do the whole click around, find people to talk to, open the phone etc, etc in real time. It can't be skipped over.
Even with your multiple save solution (Which isn't always feasible, if say a major story branch happens early, you still have to play a majority of the game twice), I STILL have to play the free roam areas over and over in real time. There's no way around it and it ruins any desire I have to do it.
- Jun 10, 2017
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Because it's really difficult to develop a real sandbox game and in the same time release it update by update.
If you look at the most know and well done sandbox games, you found Super Powered, that is 6 years old. And after so much time, it still have characters to effectively integrate into the sandbox mechanism, location to introduce, and have almost not advanced the story. You also foung Glassix, that is just few days younger, and it also is not finished.
Now, imagine such game at its early stage. It's just an empty shell. You've a big place to play, but nothing to do most of the time. It's a promising fun fair, where 99% of the attraction have a "will open soon" sign in front of them. And for the few that are opened, they end with a deviation sign that lead you to an emergency exit, because the painters are still working in the next room.
- Dec 4, 2018
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Based on what's written there, the tag "sandbox" has gotten a bad reputation because many games are incorrectly labeled as sandbox or they just do it poorly. I'll admit that it's a tag i've never paid attention to so i'm not sure myself.
- Jun 24, 2018
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Are they really that hated?
6 of the 12 most liked games are sandbox. Even the top 12 sandbox games are extremely known and popular. Two years ago I did this poll about VN vs Sandbox and Sandbox doubled VN's votes. Aprox a year ago someone did the same poll (I couldn't find it) and VN won but it was something like 51-49.
I know that there are some who do hate it, but those are just another vocal minority complaning about the things they find on internet just because they can. Most people like it or do prefer a VN over a sandbox but they wouldn't complain and/or even mention it. That NightMirror guy in particular is just dumb. He hates it so much but still he decided to do it on his own will? Does he really think that the reason why sandbox is popular is because of Milfy City? I think that guy is the classic example of how vocal minorities works.
Also something that I've noticed is that for most people, a "well done" sandbox requires a lot of things that aren't precisely porn or story related. People want the sandbox to be "well done" so the dev will spend time working on the sandbox element, and when the update is ready, people will complain that dev spent time working on the sandbox instead of progressing with the story and/or adding sex scenes...
Lastly, a lot of people just want to hit the Ctrl key to skip all the dialogue and get the sex scene so fast that you can't tell if they are playing a VN or speedruning 16 stars in Mario 64, and sandbox is an impediment for that.
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6 of the 12 most liked games are sandbox. Even the top 12 sandbox games are extremely known and popular. Two years ago I did this poll about VN vs Sandbox and Sandbox doubled VN's votes. Aprox a year ago someone did the same poll (I couldn't find it) and VN won but it was something like 51-49.
I know that there are some who do hate it, but those are just another vocal minority complaning about the things they find on internet just because they can. Most people like it or do prefer a VN over a sandbox but they wouldn't complain and/or even mention it. That NightMirror guy in particular is just dumb. He hates it so much but still he decided to do it on his own will? Does he really think that the reason why sandbox is popular is because of Milfy City? I think that guy is the classic example of how vocal minorities works.
Also something that I've noticed is that for most people, a "well done" sandbox requires a lot of things that aren't precisely porn or story related. People want the sandbox to be "well done" so the dev will spend time working on the sandbox element, and when the update is ready, people will complain that dev spent time working on the sandbox instead of progressing with the story and/or adding sex scenes...
Lastly, a lot of people just want to hit the Ctrl key to skip all the dialogue and get the sex scene so fast that you can't tell if they are playing a VN or speedruning 16 stars in Mario 64, and sandbox is an impediment for that.
- Jun 3, 2017
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I'd say it goes a bit deeper than that.
What I think he's stating there is that many games which are tagged as sandbox are just standard VNs 'in disguise'. And in his opinion, the disguise doesn't make the game more enjoyable but rather just wastes his time.
IOW it's a fleshed out version of what stuffstuffstuff said:
- Jun 3, 2017
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No, he decided to convert a sandbox game made by someone else into a standard VN, because he saw the sandbox aspects as superfluous.
Furthermore his intent wasn't to campaign against the existence of sandbox games, or disparage people who enjoy sandbox games or even the author of the game he converted. He was just explaining in detail why he doesn't like them. And by extension, why he was motivated to do what he did.
- Jun 24, 2018
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I see, makes sense now.
I get that he is just explaining his reasons why he doesn't like it, and I totally agree that sandboxes are just VNs in disguise. My point was (before knowing that he was converting some one else's game) that a lot of those who "hate" sandbox play those games mostly to complain about it instead of playing something else. Tags are there for a reason, and most of those haters (of any tag, not only sandbox) ignore them or play the game anyway hoping that that tag is wrong or avoidable and complaining afterwards.
For me it's not really about the sandbox part, it's about if the sandbox has a reason to be one, like filling it with little lore details or secrets or choices. There's a pretty big chance the world ends up feeling big but empty.
- Jun 2, 2018
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baloneysammich and Adabelitoo
Actually, I mostly made the conversion from Unity to Ren'py for myself, then decided, what the heck, why not share it with people on f95? The Unity game, while pretty good, has some problems and a lot of players have given up on the Unity version due to continued design issues. Yes, some players stopped because of the sandbox, but lots of others gave up due to bugs or game limitations (like a single save slot, or no back or skip button).
Other than not enjoying them, I decided not to reimplement a "sandbox" because, well, it isn't a sandbox in the original game. The stories can't stand independently from each other, so it really is just a VN but with extra steps.
As my linked post above says, I've already given my reason for generally not enjoying "sandbox-like", and real sandbox games too. That said, I have enjoyed (and played a lot of) sandbox games. Some done very well. It is still a tag that often makes me pass on a game I might otherwise try, but I don't go into peoples game threads and demand they take their sandbox (or any other content) out.
People should play the game types they enjoy. Creators should make the game types they want to make. No matter what the end product, some people will love it, and others won't.
That is why there are tags. For people to find the content they want to play and enjoy, and avoid the things they don't like. I actually think we need more then just tags (because tags don't say enough about a game), but that's beyond the scope of this topic.
There is nothing wrong with debating a type of content/game mechanic, because it's all preference and taste, which (as long as it's fantasy) there is no right or wrong answer to. There are poor implementations, but people will like what they like, and hate what they hate. And the reasons for either are more complicated than any single post could possibly answer.
Actually, I mostly made the conversion from Unity to Ren'py for myself, then decided, what the heck, why not share it with people on f95? The Unity game, while pretty good, has some problems and a lot of players have given up on the Unity version due to continued design issues. Yes, some players stopped because of the sandbox, but lots of others gave up due to bugs or game limitations (like a single save slot, or no back or skip button).
Other than not enjoying them, I decided not to reimplement a "sandbox" because, well, it isn't a sandbox in the original game. The stories can't stand independently from each other, so it really is just a VN but with extra steps.
As my linked post above says, I've already given my reason for generally not enjoying "sandbox-like", and real sandbox games too. That said, I have enjoyed (and played a lot of) sandbox games. Some done very well. It is still a tag that often makes me pass on a game I might otherwise try, but I don't go into peoples game threads and demand they take their sandbox (or any other content) out.
People should play the game types they enjoy. Creators should make the game types they want to make. No matter what the end product, some people will love it, and others won't.
That is why there are tags. For people to find the content they want to play and enjoy, and avoid the things they don't like. I actually think we need more then just tags (because tags don't say enough about a game), but that's beyond the scope of this topic.
There is nothing wrong with debating a type of content/game mechanic, because it's all preference and taste, which (as long as it's fantasy) there is no right or wrong answer to. There are poor implementations, but people will like what they like, and hate what they hate. And the reasons for either are more complicated than any single post could possibly answer.
My point was, that after Milfy City, I started seeing "sandboxes" EVERYWHERE. And that game was hugely popular. The games industry (even the porn side) tends to copy what works. Is sandbox only because of Milfy City? No, clearly not. Did it boost sandbox popularity? I mean, I've played carbon copies of that game dozens of times over so... yeah? I think there is a connection there.
I don't mind sandbox games as long as there's something to do. More often than not though, there isn't enough content to make them anything fun.
Also, a lot of people mislabel their games without understanding what certain tags actually mean. They think sandbox means you can run around a city or that you get to make choices and that's all that is required for a sandbox tag...
Also, a lot of people mislabel their games without understanding what certain tags actually mean. They think sandbox means you can run around a city or that you get to make choices and that's all that is required for a sandbox tag...
- Jun 3, 2017
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Apologies if I mis-represented you, I was just trying to share my interpretation of what you wrote.
- Mar 15, 2021
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- Jun 24, 2018
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When I first read the linked post, I thought you were the classic hater. When I understood that you were just converting it and now that you tell me that it wasn't even a sandbox in the original game (I'm kinda confused, but it isn't the point here so I won't ask) then great, you're not the case, my B, I take it back.
Now about Milfy City, did it boost sandbox popularity? Well yes. I mean, Plants vs Zombies popularized the tower defense genre and PUBG popularized the battle royale genre. You can't blame others for doing what's popular, and for the case, the reason why those others copied that popular element is because they also enjoyed it in the first place, not only to grab more players, so you can't blame them for doing what they enjoy either. Back to Milfy City, Summertime Saga is like 2 years older. I wasn't here in 2016-2017 when SS released, but if we use the idea that a popular sandbox game boosted sandbox popularity, then that EVERYWHERE should have started before MF, not after.
I mean, I get your point and I agree, but the idea that one single thing started a trend is usually wrong or too simple.
- May 22, 2018
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I suppose I'm on the other end of the spectrum. I more or less refuse to play a game if it's just a straight up visual novel(I mean I do play the occasional Japanese one but not for porn purposes). It might sound silly or petty, but to me the action of clicking a door, a character, or a menu option completely changes how I experience the game. Even if the game itself is pretty linear. I just get so much more immersed in the world and characters if I can explore it by myself. I do want some form of gameplay mechanics like money, puzzles, energy, minigames, increasing stats and time management, that is the bare minimum for me, but I'm gonna be honest it doesn't take a huge amount for me to get interested as long as I can point and click at things.
It's actually pretty annoying since there are some amazing looking games out there with sweet visuals or enticing kinks, but no matter how often I try it just doesn't do it for me. Oh well.
I do think the sandbox term is a bad one since it doesn't describe most of these games, a better one would have been something like open world or just point & click. Because fundamentally they play like old school point & click games, granted often with less inventory puzzles.
It's actually pretty annoying since there are some amazing looking games out there with sweet visuals or enticing kinks, but no matter how often I try it just doesn't do it for me. Oh well.
I do think the sandbox term is a bad one since it doesn't describe most of these games, a better one would have been something like open world or just point & click. Because fundamentally they play like old school point & click games, granted often with less inventory puzzles.
- Jun 2, 2018
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One last thought on sandbox and "sandbox-like" games, and that is the nature of how porn games tend to get released. Due to how most games on this site are put together (one updated at a time), players will eventually need to start a new save, possibly more than once. This is where I see a lot of issues with these navigation styles.
Even if it's fun to go through and discover things the first time, what about the second time? Or a third or fourth? Are players going to have the same drive to "hunt down" the story again and again? Liner VNs have similar replay fatigue problems with forced restarts (especially with branching), but it is not nearly as bad as a "sandbox" in terms of time.
There is still an order to events, specific things you need to do before you can do other stories. This is a liner game pretending to be sandbox, presenting the illusion of choice, but giving none. Want to do stuff with a specific character? Well, you have to do stuff with other characters first. And I see this issue a LOT in "sandbox-like" games, they could be a liner VN, but instead the game interaction is click of buttons to find the next story.
Vs "Degrees of Lewdity" which is an actual sandbox game, full of grinding (if you don't use cheats) but where your choices actually matter. Where you can make your own story. It still has event requirements, and progression, but it would be nearly impossible to make into a liner VN.
As to Summertime Saga or Milfy City, I'm not sure the specific game matters. Milfy City is the first game I remember seeing the "sandbox-like" stuff in, but as both have been in production forever, it could have been either, or even a third different one. What I was pointing out is that the style got copied over and over and over without any real improvement.
Are those two games the only factors in popularizing "sandbox-like" games? No. Are they major influences, yeah, I think they had a huge impact. Mostly because I see the exact formula from those games used again and again. And while it worked there, it hasn't really been innovated on, just overused.
Even if it's fun to go through and discover things the first time, what about the second time? Or a third or fourth? Are players going to have the same drive to "hunt down" the story again and again? Liner VNs have similar replay fatigue problems with forced restarts (especially with branching), but it is not nearly as bad as a "sandbox" in terms of time.
Nah, you did fine. I'm glad my long winded comments were able to help at least some people.
The Unity game by Ferdafs Rick and Morty - A Way Back Home has "sandbox" style navigation and an event system (wander from room to room until the story shows up). The game calls itself a sandbox, but it isn't.
There is still an order to events, specific things you need to do before you can do other stories. This is a liner game pretending to be sandbox, presenting the illusion of choice, but giving none. Want to do stuff with a specific character? Well, you have to do stuff with other characters first. And I see this issue a LOT in "sandbox-like" games, they could be a liner VN, but instead the game interaction is click of buttons to find the next story.
Vs "Degrees of Lewdity" which is an actual sandbox game, full of grinding (if you don't use cheats) but where your choices actually matter. Where you can make your own story. It still has event requirements, and progression, but it would be nearly impossible to make into a liner VN.
As to Summertime Saga or Milfy City, I'm not sure the specific game matters. Milfy City is the first game I remember seeing the "sandbox-like" stuff in, but as both have been in production forever, it could have been either, or even a third different one. What I was pointing out is that the style got copied over and over and over without any real improvement.
Are those two games the only factors in popularizing "sandbox-like" games? No. Are they major influences, yeah, I think they had a huge impact. Mostly because I see the exact formula from those games used again and again. And while it worked there, it hasn't really been innovated on, just overused.