Why are you comparing indie only? when did i ever mention that? topic was SFW vs NSFW, does the game feature porn or not? its that simple. Which will provide more and better paid jobs? You're chasing your tail again with your own tangents. By comparing only Indie you are basically stating that any game outside of indie is not employing.Best vs Best is a piss poor analysis of how a market generally performs. The difference in income between the majority of indie games on steam and the top 1% is staggering.
Numbers are easy to find via:You must be registered to see the links
Compare games tagged "Indie." Average Revenue: ~210,000$, Median Revenue: ~760$. That suggests that most indie games barely sell at all and that the average is massively dragged up by a small number of high-performing games.
Compare games tagged "Hentai." Average Revenue: ~100,000$, Median Revenue: ~2,600$. The average is 1/2 of Indie but the median is over 3x higher than for Indie. The lower difference between the Average and Median suggests that these games are performing better CONSISTENTLY.
A big part of this is how overly saturated the indie market is, there are 25x more games tagged indie than hentai. All that really means though is that it is a lucrative niche and you are much more likely to make a return in that market right now. How those numbers will look in the future as the eroge market grows remains to be seen.
It is true that nsfw games don't have the multimillion-dollar hits that the general market has, but if you're comparing who is doing better overall then nsfw wins. What you're saying is like saying "South Africa is doing better than Sweden economically because Elon Musk is richer than the richest Swede." All while ignoring that the average South African makes less than a quarter of what the average Swede does.
This is going to be my last reply my gal, I'm pretty tired of this. The conversation started with talk about sfw vs nsfw artists, as in individual people making their living, heck you even implied that artists ony can work on games when you brought up programmers earlier. I compare exclusively indie because pretty much all nsfw games are indie games, why the genuine fuck do you think it would be fair to compare them to AAA titles? And do you think that all the money from AAA titles goes to the artists? Indie here is the comparison that makes sense, small teams or even single persons that make a game and receive the majority of its income. That is not even mentioning that these are numbers from a platform that is not geared towards nsfw, one that by default hides them behind a filter that is hidden in the settings menus.Why are you comparing indie only? when did i ever mention that? topic was SFW vs NSFW, does the game feature porn or not? its that simple. Which will provide more and better paid jobs? You're chasing your tail again with your own tangents. By comparing only Indie you are basically stating that any game outside of indie is not employing.
I began with an example involving Riot Games because they provide a lot more jobs than most NSFW developers/publishers, Riot being only one of many other profitable companies doing so. Most NSFW games devs remain small because its not easy continuing to hire professionals. Instead they seek those with more basic level skills, or who do it for the love of the art, like Ero's team. Ero himself has no history of making games other than his attempt at MATM.
Even when using your example and checking the website, the tag "wholesome" which is SFW content has ~$310,000 average revenue and ~$12,000 average median. Way higher on both stats, 310% the revenue and 461.54% the median, wonder why you left that one out. Indie only describes if a game is independent or not, it says nothing of it's content. Most NSFW games themselves are indie, this whole website is proof of that. Why else would they need us supporting them?
And yet here we are, commenting and making fun of a person and his project for being a liability for 200 pages since the game's release while gaining nothing and maybe making a fool out of ourselves (sometimes, including myself) for almost as long as the game's existence, I suppose. So, how much progress do we make in terms of changing Eromancer's mind to be a more efficient project lead?do they have 2 fingers and no learning skills??? lmao it has been 5+ year. and there's barely any progress on mechanics whatsoever.
You see, the reason why I don't argue with the gal anymore (maybe just asking a question or two). It's amusing y'all giving details but Kitty just said "No, you got it all wrong" and go on tangents at all times and dismisses a few points so that it makes you in the wrong most of the time.This is going to be my last reply my gal, I'm pretty tired of this.
i dont think we are ever going to change a greedy person's mind. as long as a greedy one is earning they will keep doing it. All we can do is warn others to not waste their money on this scam.tell me if there's something confusing here. i dont really write this much replies lol. but i did reply on the spoilered stuff
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And yet here we are, commenting and making fun of a person and his project for being a liability for 200 pages since the game's release while gaining nothing and maybe making a fool out of ourselves (sometimes, including myself) for almost as long as the game's existence, I suppose. So, how much progress do we make in terms of changing Eromancer's mind to be a more efficient project lead?
And what do we do after this? Rinse and repeat.
yeah, my boss once told me "If you think that your work is hard and you're not doing anything to make things work you're just being lazy" but hey up to this dev if he'll give us updates or not. I'm out of this family feud, count me out. don't want to get bit by a cat.i dont think we are ever going to change a greedy person's mind. as long as a greedy one is earning they will keep doing it. All we can do is warn others to not waste their money on this scam.
i guess as someone who knows their way on codes/programming, i REALLY just dont like the narrative of "UWU ErOmAnCeR iS jUsT hAvIng A hArD tImE bEcAuSe The CoDe Is CoMpLeX". that's just a poor excuse. i think the time for giving this dev/group the benefit of the doubt is long overdue.
Whether it's greed, gross incompetence in managing time and resources, inexcusably slow development time, or a mix between the three...i dont think we are ever going to change a greedy person's mind. as long as a greedy one is earning they will keep doing it.
Changing the subject again? No problem, I got the facts here as well.2022 is when censorship hit them. They not only had to rethink things, but stop progress on planned developments, remove content that was no longer valid, redesign content to replace what was taken out, and now have to recheck future content for approval. All which was a giant waste of time required by Patreon and not Ero. Its not easy to get the snowball rolling again when your project is under threat of restrictions, you already have bugs to worry about and now censorship. So technically it didn't slow down because of him, it slowed because Patreon had to throw a wrench in it.
Also his average was never $20K not even at its peak, which is now.
It started when i said "NSFW alone stops most people, even when you compare normal artist vs NSFW artist, the normal artist usually make more because sadly NSFW content is not easily marketed as non-nsfw"The conversation started with talk about sfw vs nsfw artists
I compare to AAA because most that finish their careers don't go out seeking tiny NSFW projects, a lot turn you well known establish companies and freelance for them or remain permanent.why the genuine fuck do you think it would be fair to compare them to AAA titles
I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with wanting to "reinvent the wheel" for the beat em up genre but Eromancer is the last person that should be doing it and Unity is quite possibly the WORST engine they could have chosen to do it on. Most open source Beat em up engines are meh at best so wanting to create something new is understandable. Eromancer just isn't competent or reliable enough to be responsible with something like that. Prone to content creep and frequently getting bored with his own projects and instead of letting his team actually do the work in the scope provided he keeps demanding more and keeps demanding perfection out of an engine that can't give you perfection. On top of that instead of focusing on the project at hand he keeps doing this 3D pop culture modeling and AI art bullshit. You are right that he needs someone on his team to tell him no.Bloodmane and CourierNPC, I think you misunderstood each other and have been arguing about 2 different things. So I wanted to add my 2 cents to both of you.
1- The difficulty of a Beat 'em Up from a technical perspective.
2- The difficulty to implement the ridiculous feature creep of PO from a content perspective.
First, I agree with Bloodmane that the "code was cracked" a long time ago on how to make a good 2.5D Beat 'em Up. From Technos' Renegade (1986), And Double Dragon (1987) to SNK's P.O.W (1988) to Konami's Crime Fighters (1989) and Capcom's Street Fighter '89 - aka Final Fight - (1989). They all lied the foundation on how to make great games in the genre, and dozens more great games followed during the 90s. After the 2000s the genre pretty much died out, but was recently revitalized by DotEmu with Streets of Rage 4 and TMNT: Shredder's Revenge. And a lot of "underground" great but unlicensed games using OpenBor like Double Dragon Reloaded or Final Fight LNS Ultimate.
Eromancer could have been smart and used OpenBor or any other existing engine but had to "reinvent the wheel" and do it from scratch. And the claims of "this is so hard, we only have 2 programmers" after 4 years of "development" make you lose your shit. I understand and agree with you. Eromancer just can't deliver a playable game while Shin (from StudioS - aka Studio Shin -), a one-man-army, developed this:
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Alone, he did Fatal Fight in 13 months during 2011/2012. Does the game have excellent graphics? No. Does it have a lot of H-scenes? No, it has 6 female enemies and only 2 sex-scenes (all female enemies are skins of the same model). Does it have the best control responsiveness and hitboxes? No, it's quite average. Is it fun to play? HELL YEAH!
But to Eromancer's supporters, he doesn't count, because he's japanese. And making H-games is hard in the west somehow.
Second, I agree with CourierNPC that the project would need a lot more people to be completed, if the feature/content creep was under control. But it's never been. Eromancer can get hundreds of workers, but PO would keep getting more and more bloated.
An it's always been bloated, from the very beginning. This is Eromancer's "speech" when they stopped working on MatM from September 2018. Quote:
"The goal is to take part of the team and get a very fun and accessible side project built in Unity with a much smaller scope than MATM to you and to retailers ASAP. As it so happens, we currently have the golden opportunity to do this, as Steam has opened its doors to adult content. We all know that the adult game world is fickle, and that these doors of opportunity often close, meaning we have to make this move now. This in no way means we’ll sacrifice quality – it just means we’ll be very busy!
The game will take place in MATM's world, and act as an introduction to MATM's setting, the theme, the denizens of New Babylon, and even some of the characters. It will require MUCH less overhead development time, and what you'll see in this update is from only two weeks spent on pre-visualization."
And only 2 months later, in November 2018, this "much smaller scope" "side project" that they wanted to release "ASAP" already had plans to implement 5 stages out of 7 and 6 different factions. Quote:
"Here are some ideas I have for potential stages. We will select the best 5 (or so) ideas to use for the initial retail release of the game.
The enemy types shown aren’t exclusive to the levels – they’re just ideas for a theme where we could creatively introduce new enemies (or in some cases have maps that lend to enemies that require environments, such as water dwelling enemies or something). Feel free to add suggestions, as well as give me some ideas for environments that could work within these levels!"
- Streets (Splicers)
- Red Light District (Syndicate)
- Rooftops (Police)
- Junkyard (Machines)
- Sewer (Biomonsters)
- Prison (Errythang)
- Biomonster Nest (Biomonsters)
- Splicer HQ (???)
And weapons. He wasted even more time planning and making concept art for weapons! Quote:
"You must be registered to see the links. Weapons will be expendable like in other beat-em-up games. This means when a weapon’s ammo is spent or it breaks, you drop it and move on. Weapons can be found either in breakable containers or dropped by enemies that begin with them. Some enemies will actually be able to pick up weapons lying around, and other enemies will have specialized weapons that only they can use.
Here are some of the weapon ideas I’m considering:
The various guns would have different piercing/knockback properties, as well as special moves."
- Katana
- Handgun
- Uzi
- Machine Gun / Heavy Machine Gun
- Throwing Knife
- Molotov / Grenade
No amount of manpower would ever be able to deliver Eromancer's delusions. He must hire a lead developer capable of saying NO to the uncontrolable feature/content creep before any of his projects can ever get anywhere.
new project? of eromachi?Maybe the current content will double by the time we get Guilty Hell 3 on here.
Correct me if I'm wrong:meanwhile money is piling up and people accuse them of scamming for not learning faster.
Correct me if I'm wrong:
One thing that I noticed now is that I have never heard of Eromancer's programmers' qualifications. What engine have they mastered, how many years of experience working as a coder/programmer, or anything that is relevant to their career (has worked with AA studios before, has interned at a child company of Triple-A studios, etc.) or expertise in some programming language out there (C++, C#, JavaScript, etc.)
Now that you are part of the group, do you have any information on this? Because expertise and experience matter quite a bit and play a big role to suppress people's skepticism so that they know that the programmers know what they're doing.
Even without you telling me that my question gonna be deflected, yeah, kind of expected it -- Heck, even ignored entirely since that ain't matter that much to Kitty than some asshole trying to fight with facts and logic