If I were to unpack character models and meshes form a game, say mass effect and use them to make renders to make my own VN game, how would that work with copyright? Seeing that there are many games here about real and popular franchises like Avatar and DC and there seem to be no problem. How would that work if I used real assets from the gamefiles and make renders with it (modifying them for obvious reasons ofc)?
Question about copyright
- Thread starter DarkMessai
- Start date
- Nov 4, 2017
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Laws vary depending on where you are located but generally speaking that's illegal.
I imagine almost all games here that use a popular franchise are technically illegal as well - I doubt their creators made a licensing deal with the copyright owners.
That said, can you get away with it? Probably yes.
It falls on the copyright owners to sue people that misuse it and most companies don't care enough to pursue random hentai games that exist somewhere. So unless your game gets really popular it's unlikely to get legal attention.
I imagine almost all games here that use a popular franchise are technically illegal as well - I doubt their creators made a licensing deal with the copyright owners.
That said, can you get away with it? Probably yes.
It falls on the copyright owners to sue people that misuse it and most companies don't care enough to pursue random hentai games that exist somewhere. So unless your game gets really popular it's unlikely to get legal attention.
- Jun 10, 2017
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[Note: I'm not a lawyer, just an informed member. Therefore this should not be seen as legal advice, but just as shared knowledge]
Using screenshot of a game could possibly be presented as a tribute, or the desire to create a fan fiction. But what you intent to do have absolutely no way to be seen otherwise than an intellectual properties theft.
In top of that, accessing those models is part of reverse engineering, what is illegal in many countries ; you take the software as it is, and don't have the right to access what is stored in the files. Therefore just the fact that you gained access to those models is by itself illegal.
This being said, the reaction will totally depend of the rights owners. Some will not care at all, and therefore not try to enforce their rights. Others will not let you go until they have the guaranty that you'll never ever try to do this again.
The investigation will conclude that images do not come from the game, and that there's no models this similar to theirs that can be found. You clearly used their meshes, that you tweaked by hope that you'll then avoid any problems.
You'll receive an email asking you to stop this immediately, or to be ready to face the consequences. If they are in a bad day, the email will just tell you that you'll face the consequences, period.
Of course, to win their lawsuit, they need to prove that you effectively used their assets. But since you'll probably have to face US justice, there's way to goes around this problem. Presenting you like a bad guy (hey, you frequent a forum full of pirates !) could be enough ; if you do this, what is proved, you probably also did what can't be proved.
But in fact they don't care to win the lawsuit. The judgment will not come before years, and in between everyone will be afraid to use their franchise in a bad way. It will cost them money, but they can totally afford this, they've lawyers payed yearly just for that ; for once they'll be payed to do something.
As for you, it would cost you so much that in ten years you'll still be paying for this. They totally know that, and totally count on it for you to beg them for an agreement.
Or you can be totally safe because they'll decide that you don't even worth that they think about you and your game.
It's the most likely outcome, but it shouldn't make you forget that it can end differently, and that you would really dislike this difference.
That would works really badly.
Using screenshot of a game could possibly be presented as a tribute, or the desire to create a fan fiction. But what you intent to do have absolutely no way to be seen otherwise than an intellectual properties theft.
In top of that, accessing those models is part of reverse engineering, what is illegal in many countries ; you take the software as it is, and don't have the right to access what is stored in the files. Therefore just the fact that you gained access to those models is by itself illegal.
This being said, the reaction will totally depend of the rights owners. Some will not care at all, and therefore not try to enforce their rights. Others will not let you go until they have the guaranty that you'll never ever try to do this again.
The absence of problems do not imply that what is done is legal. Unless explicitly stated otherwise, you've to assume that those games exist because they haven't drawn the attention of the rights owners. Whatever because they stayed unnoticed, or because they are so underground that they don't worth the time, and money, needed by an action.
Well, someone at EA will see your game and find the models really similar to the ones used in Mass Effect. He'll notice the legal department, that will ask someone to investigate.
The investigation will conclude that images do not come from the game, and that there's no models this similar to theirs that can be found. You clearly used their meshes, that you tweaked by hope that you'll then avoid any problems.
You'll receive an email asking you to stop this immediately, or to be ready to face the consequences. If they are in a bad day, the email will just tell you that you'll face the consequences, period.
Of course, to win their lawsuit, they need to prove that you effectively used their assets. But since you'll probably have to face US justice, there's way to goes around this problem. Presenting you like a bad guy (hey, you frequent a forum full of pirates !) could be enough ; if you do this, what is proved, you probably also did what can't be proved.
But in fact they don't care to win the lawsuit. The judgment will not come before years, and in between everyone will be afraid to use their franchise in a bad way. It will cost them money, but they can totally afford this, they've lawyers payed yearly just for that ; for once they'll be payed to do something.
As for you, it would cost you so much that in ten years you'll still be paying for this. They totally know that, and totally count on it for you to beg them for an agreement.
Or you can be totally safe because they'll decide that you don't even worth that they think about you and your game.
It's the most likely outcome, but it shouldn't make you forget that it can end differently, and that you would really dislike this difference.
I Am Not A Lawyer, this is not legal advise.
A rendering of a 3d model may be it's own copyrightable work - but it very well may be a derivative work, a court or jury would have to decide. If it's a derivative work it's copyright belongs to the original author or copyright holder. You may say it's Fair Use, but that changes nothing and it's still up to the judge or jury to decide if it actually is Fair Use or not.
But here's the bigger problem - extracting models from a game is a breach of contract. Every EULA has a clause that says you can't use the games assets nor reverse engineer any part of it even for personal use. Even click-through eulas are legal, so bummer.
Can you get away with it? Yeah, but if you get a cease and desist letter - you'd better bail, especially if you're in a easy to sue country (USA, most of EU, etc) lawyers alone will cost shitloads of money.
A rendering of a 3d model may be it's own copyrightable work - but it very well may be a derivative work, a court or jury would have to decide. If it's a derivative work it's copyright belongs to the original author or copyright holder. You may say it's Fair Use, but that changes nothing and it's still up to the judge or jury to decide if it actually is Fair Use or not.
But here's the bigger problem - extracting models from a game is a breach of contract. Every EULA has a clause that says you can't use the games assets nor reverse engineer any part of it even for personal use. Even click-through eulas are legal, so bummer.
Can you get away with it? Yeah, but if you get a cease and desist letter - you'd better bail, especially if you're in a easy to sue country (USA, most of EU, etc) lawyers alone will cost shitloads of money.
- Jul 20, 2018
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Not a lawyer either.
But the cost of a lawyer for a simple copyright case can be 25.000 USD (US lawsuit of course) and easily reach 100.000 USD if it drags on a little longer and is a little more complicated. (at least according to watching youtube lawyers).
Please note that the cease and desist letter is often send because it puts you on notice that what you are doing is illegal. Trouble is that is not a requirement. You can be sued directly.
The chances of you getting away with it are not zero but I won't take that risk especially if you plan on making money on your game. (Rightsholders are more likely to sue if you profited from the infringement).
The only way to get away with it is if you do not share your game. It doesn't mean you aren't breaking copyright or the contract but it means the change of EA finding out become near zero and even if they do the public backlash would be to bad for them to even consider it.
But the cost of a lawyer for a simple copyright case can be 25.000 USD (US lawsuit of course) and easily reach 100.000 USD if it drags on a little longer and is a little more complicated. (at least according to watching youtube lawyers).
Please note that the cease and desist letter is often send because it puts you on notice that what you are doing is illegal. Trouble is that is not a requirement. You can be sued directly.
The chances of you getting away with it are not zero but I won't take that risk especially if you plan on making money on your game. (Rightsholders are more likely to sue if you profited from the infringement).
The only way to get away with it is if you do not share your game. It doesn't mean you aren't breaking copyright or the contract but it means the change of EA finding out become near zero and even if they do the public backlash would be to bad for them to even consider it.
- Jul 27, 2017
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If some of the bullshit in this thread was even vaguely accurate game modding would be illegal and we wouldn't have people touching up Skyrim textures or whatever because it would land them in jail. It's always fascinating how many "not a lawyer"'s think we all collectively live in Nazi Germany for some reason.
Now, making money off that is a different issues, but even that is more of a gray area, depending on how you intend to monetize and how much of a hard-on the specific company has for shutting down stuff like that.
Now, making money off that is a different issues, but even that is more of a gray area, depending on how you intend to monetize and how much of a hard-on the specific company has for shutting down stuff like that.
- Jun 10, 2017
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[Still not graduated from a law school, not even attended one since the last time]
But there's also studios who tolerate modding, as long as it don't goes against their interest. Like by example Take-Two, that were good with the GTA modding scene as long as it where implying an increase in their sells, and that now started
There's a reason why almost none of us use our real identity, and this reason isn't because we like this aura of mystery. Like for the Open Source community, the works some of us do could open them the gates for a good job ; some are real artists, either in terms of modeling or in terms of codding. Therefore, it would be benefit for us to expose ourselves in the light.
But we aren't doing it, because we aren't fools. A big part of the modding community know that they are dancing on a wire, and that a misplaced feet can lead to some big troubles.
Bethesda provide the tools to mod their games and always claimed that they welcome modding, even having
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. It's not the only game studio to do it, there's by example EA with SIMS 3, where the
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have a long part regarding modding. While it restricts the modders rights, by itself this EULA also give an explicit authorization to mod the game. This while Epic Games goes as far as having
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, telling explicitly what they authorize and what they would sue if needed.But there's also studios who tolerate modding, as long as it don't goes against their interest. Like by example Take-Two, that were good with the GTA modding scene as long as it where implying an increase in their sells, and that now started
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, probably in order to let the place to their future remastered versions. They aren't the first one, Blizzard have a history of
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. And in the past some modders
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because of their mod.There's a reason why almost none of us use our real identity, and this reason isn't because we like this aura of mystery. Like for the Open Source community, the works some of us do could open them the gates for a good job ; some are real artists, either in terms of modeling or in terms of codding. Therefore, it would be benefit for us to expose ourselves in the light.
But we aren't doing it, because we aren't fools. A big part of the modding community know that they are dancing on a wire, and that a misplaced feet can lead to some big troubles.
While apparently some believe that Law is just a word and copyrights a bad dream.
- Jul 20, 2018
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Only 5 posts this time...
Anyway that the modding community is alive and well doesn't mean it is legal per say. It is just that no sane company wants to test it in court. Even if they win the bad publicity that comes with attacking the modding community will pretty much make you a pariah in the games industry. It's bad for business. (And some mods are plainly illegal and have been tested in court like modding an autotargeting system into online FPS games and what not)
- Jun 25, 2017
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This repeats some of the above, but there are several different concepts at play here.
Whether or not you're allowed to invade the game and pull things out depends on the license associated with the game. As stated earlier, some manufacturers are permissive, some are tolerant, some may not be. But many software licenses prohibit reverse engineering, decompiling, etc. So, that's one thing to run afoul of.
Copyright is a tricky thing. Usually, if you create an image, you own the copyright to that image. However, as stated earlier, if the only way to produce that image was to use someone else's stuff, you might run into the "derivative work" issue. But copyright laws vary widely from country to country, so there's just no way to make a global statement about this.
Just as an example, the Daz Studio license terms allow you to make 2D renderings using any of their assets for either personal or commercial works. That right is explicitly granted to you, both for the use of Daz Studio itself as well as any assets you purchase through their store. They also allow you to use the meshes, textures, etc., in other applications (e.g. Blender) as long as you're just making 2D renderings. But if you want to embed the mesh itself into a game you're building, the standard license prohibits this - you have to purchase a separate interactive license for any asset for that (assuming that the asset's producer even allows this). So, that's just a single example of "it all depends what you do with the asset." But assets that you purchase through Renderosity or Renderotica, for example, are under a different license, so the Daz terms don't apply - you have to look at their license. So, that's an example of "same software, but different usage permitted based on the specific asset."
I realize that last discussion isn't exactly on point to your question, but it's just an example of how "license terms can be complex," leading back to "there's no way you're going to get a firm answer without a lawyer experienced in the laws of both the country in which the asset is produced as well as in your own country."
(And, yes, there's the difference between "legal" and "will they ever come after you.")