Ren'Py Question about game distribution under copyright conditions

[jemmylyn]

What restrictions in terms of copyright might be when distributing your ren'py game through Patreon?

1. Music
I saw music from popular brands in some ren'py games (i could be wrong, I don't remember exactly) and obviously the authors did not buy a license for use. For example, game "Summer's Gone", as far as I know, the developer used popular branded music for a long time before moving to Steam. So, if the game is not sold on Steam, then you can use any kind of content and legally receive financial support from Patreon without any negative outcomes?

2. The situation with "Honey Select" and "Koikatsu"
Pretty big number of projects based on these games are distributed through Patreon. And the author does not have any problems with copyrights? At first glance, it looks like they're just taking someone else's game, animations, assets, etc. and distributing it for money. How does this work?

 

[Doorknob22]

Even though it's illegal, it's usually not worth anyone's trouble to pursue you for using copyrighted material as long as you distribute the game for free and remain a small fish. Once you begin selling it through a 3rd party (Patrons, Steam, Itch etc'), these platforms don't want to get sued, so they protect themselves by prohibiting you from using copyrighted materials.

 

[jemmylyn]

Even though it's illegal, it's usually not worth anyone's trouble to pursue you for using copyrighted material as long as you distribute the game for free and remain a small fish. Once you begin selling it through a 3rd party (Patrons, Steam, Itch etc'), these platforms don't want to get sued, so they protect themselves by prohibiting you from using copyrighted materials.

Let's say I create a game and add music that is not very popular, but still falls under copyright. In this case, I can make a Patreon and even if my game becomes popular, it’s unlikely that someone will pursue me? For example, "Summer's Gone" was popular before travel to Steam, and the author used branded music. And he didn't seem to have any problems. Was he just lucky?

 

[Doorknob22]

Let's say I create a game and add music that is not very popular, but still falls under copyright. In this case, I can make a Patreon and even if my game becomes popular, it’s unlikely that someone will pursue me? For example, "Summer's Gone" was popular before travel to Steam, and the author used branded music. And he didn't seem to have any problems. Was he just lucky?

I don't know but it stands to reason that most platforms don't actively look for rules breaches, other than automatically scanning for words like ped0 or l0li in your posts. Most of them simply react to complaints and if no one complained, it's not likely they'll dig too deep.

 

[Ashira13]

Let's say I create a game and add music that is not very popular, but still falls under copyright. In this case, I can make a Patreon and even if my game becomes popular, it’s unlikely that someone will pursue me? For example, "Summer's Gone" was popular before travel to Steam, and the author used branded music. And he didn't seem to have any problems. Was he just lucky?

contact the musician/creator of said music directly and ask if you can use their music in an AVN. some would actually love to have their music featured, even if it is only in a "porn game". it is "free advertising. as long as it is not affiliated with any major company, like Sony, universal, etc, it should be ok.

 

[Cskin Games]

Let's say I create a game and add music that is not very popular, but still falls under copyright. In this case, I can make a Patreon and even if my game becomes popular, it’s unlikely that someone will pursue me? For example, "Summer's Gone" was popular before travel to Steam, and the author used branded music. And he didn't seem to have any problems. Was he just lucky?

What doorknob said is mostly accurate. It's completely illegal, so there's that. Then it falls into "did you piss anyone off?" or "Did you get really popular". If the 2nd, its more likely you get shut down pretty quickly. And SG wasn't popular. It was "popular" in terms of the AVN world, but compared to say being a dik or freshwoman (two of the highest grossing games on steam) it was relatively unknown. The more known you get (and that very often comes from exposure on steam, being the biggest platform available), the more likely it is someone comes after you for it. Take the very infamous example of Leap of Faith - it used music (which it actually had a paid license for, but thats another story entirely) that the creator objected to being used in porn. He got away with it forever until it got popular on steam, at which point the artist took notice and got it shut down. He had to redo the music for the whole game because of it. Even before steam, LoF was "popular" having well over 1k patrons, but it took the steam exposure before the artist who objected took notice.

Then there's the first one - "Did you piss anyone off". While it's less likely anyone actively comes after you for using copyrighted music if you're not very popular or well known, if someone reports you for using it, they will investigate that, and that's the 2nd way you get shut down.

As far as what the person above me said - that's less likely. Very few are going to say "Hey sure use my music, go ahead!" - about half will say "No you can't use my music in porn" and the other 49% will say "Sure you can use it - pay me." Almost none will let you use it for free (Aside from the ones ALREADY giving it away free under creative commons licenses - but in those cases, you don't need to ask).

 

[Count Morado]

Doorknob22 and noping123 with best non-lawyer advice.

If you truly want to know - you should ask a licensed attorney near you. It's obvious you already know the answer from your first question - but you are hoping someone would toss you a loophole. Asking for legal advice from randoms on an adult game forum is like asking for medical advice on a CBD forum - you get what you pay for... and, usually, increases your risk of problems if you follow it.

 

[Cskin Games]

Doorknob22 and noping123 with best non-lawyer advice.

If you truly want to know - you should ask a licensed attorney near you. It's obvious you already know the answer from your first question - but you are hoping someone would toss you a loophole. Asking for legal advice from randoms on an adult game forum is like asking for medical advice on a CBD forum - you get what you pay for... and, usually, increases your risk of problems if you follow it.

To be fair, its not really the sort of question that needs a lawyer to answer. "Is it illegal?" Yes, you don't need a lawyer to tell you that - it flat out just is.

Beyond that, it's mostly a question of "How likely are you to get away with it" - also unlikely to get a (decent) lawyer to answer that with anything other than "Its illegal, dont do it".

 

[jemmylyn]

Doorknob22 and noping123 with best non-lawyer advice.

If you truly want to know - you should ask a licensed attorney near you. It's obvious you already know the answer from your first question - but you are hoping someone would toss you a loophole. Asking for legal advice from randoms on an adult game forum is like asking for medical advice on a CBD forum - you get what you pay for... and, usually, increases your risk of problems if you follow it.

I'm not exactly looking for a loophole, although I can't say I'd be against finding one and possibly exploiting it. I was just interested to hear from other people who have more understanding and experience in this area than me and maybe hear real examples (as in the answer above, really valuable information from noping123 about LoF)

 

[jemmylyn]

To be fair, its not really the sort of question that needs a lawyer to answer. "Is it illegal?" Yes, you don't need a lawyer to tell you that - it flat out just is.

Beyond that, it's mostly a question of "How likely are you to get away with it" - also unlikely to get a (decent) lawyer to answer that with anything other than "Its illegal, dont do it".

A lawyer can talk about the laws, but not every lawyer really knows how these laws work in practice, especially in the world of adult games. Here the advice of random people can also come to hand. Besides, this is not the first time I’ve seen well-educated, thoughtful people here, on this forum.

 

[Count Morado]

To be fair, its not really the sort of question that needs a lawyer to answer. "Is it illegal?" Yes, you don't need a lawyer to tell you that - it flat out just is.

Beyond that, it's mostly a question of "How likely are you to get away with it" - also unlikely to get a (decent) lawyer to answer that with anything other than "Its illegal, dont do it".

I agree with the first part. As for the second, one of the jobs of an attorney is to utilize the laws at hand in order to thread the needle. There are a sizeable number of things which are "illegal" that are still accomplished on a daily basis because proper pathways are opened in order to subvert the legality. In most cases what an attorney can do is to give someone advice on what to do to give them the strongest affirmative defense against a possible claim by an IP holder (but no, an attorney worth their salt isn't going to risk their license to tell you to do something illegal -- but that's different than finding something in the code to give advice about affirmative defense options.)

That said, yes. But that goes to my initial reply, anyway.

This thread being unusual - sane people got in the thread quickly. Many previous threads with similar questions have a sizeable number of players come in and just say "Don't worry about it --- just put it in... do it do it dooooeeeet." Because the risk isn't theirs to take, so they have no skin in the game. They just want more content to stroke their cocks to, most don't care if the developer eventually ends up liable.

I'm not exactly looking for a loophole, although I can't say I'd be against finding one and possibly exploiting it. I was just interested to hear from other people who have more understanding and experience in this area than me and maybe hear real examples (as in the answer above, really valuable information from noping123 about LoF)

Again, the only person who can help you find a loophole to exploit with reliability is an attorney. That's one of their jobs - to find in the legal code what is possible when restricted in another area of the legal code. What may work for one developer in one country's jurisdiction may not work for you in your country's jurisdiction.

Also, this several versions of this question has been asked many times on this site. Here's a search which as you scroll through, you can find similar answers: https://f95zone.to/search/418453722...s]=1&c[container_only]=1&c[nodes][0]=9&o=date

A lawyer can talk about the laws, but not every lawyer really knows how these laws work in practice, especially in the world of adult games. Here the advice of random people can also come to hand. Besides, this is not the first time I’ve seen well-educated, thoughtful people here, on this forum.

Right, you need to find an attorney with IP experience, particularly in the music and entertainment industry --- and for your jurisdiction. The "world of adult games" is a subsection of video games, in general. It's not like there is any difference in the laws that must be followed.

And no, the advice of random people here are not better than even an attorney who recently passed the bar. Hell, the advice of random people here are not better than a law school student.

 

[Cskin Games]

This thread being unusual - sane people got in the thread quickly. Many previous threads with similar questions have a sizeable number of players come in and just say "Don't worry about it --- just put it in... do it do it dooooeeeet." Because the risk isn't theirs to take, so they have no skin in the game. They just want more content to stroke their cocks to, most don't care if the developer eventually ends up liable.

Heh. My advice to everyone is "Do what you want, I don't give a fuck. I just want to make sure you are aware of the risks first. After that, it's on you".

And yeah, a lawyer specializing in IP law could potentially find a way to "thread the needle" - But to be fair, the ones who are willing to do that are usually very well paid - so unless you have a lot of money to go around, usually the best answer you'll get is just "Don't do it - it's illegal".

 

[Count Morado]

Heh. My advice to everyone is "Do what you want, I don't give a fuck. I just want to make sure you are aware of the risks first. After that, it's on you".

And yeah, a lawyer specializing in IP law could potentially find a way to "thread the needle" - But to be fair, the ones who are willing to do that are usually very well paid - so unless you have a lot of money to go around, usually the best answer you'll get is just "Don't do it - it's illegal".

Which, again, goes to my first reply.

 

[jemmylyn]

I agree with the first part. As for the second, one of the jobs of an attorney is to utilize the laws at hand in order to thread the needle. There are a sizeable number of things which are "illegal" that are still accomplished on a daily basis because proper pathways are opened in order to subvert the legality. In most cases what an attorney can do is to give someone advice on what to do to give them the strongest affirmative defense against a possible claim by an IP holder (but no, an attorney worth their salt isn't going to risk their license to tell you to do something illegal -- but that's different than finding something in the code to give advice about affirmative defense options.)

That said, yes. But that goes to my initial reply, anyway.

This thread being unusual - sane people got in the thread quickly. Many previous threads with similar questions have a sizeable number of players come in and just say "Don't worry about it --- just put it in... do it do it dooooeeeet." Because the risk isn't theirs to take, so they have no skin in the game. They just want more content to stroke their cocks to, most don't care if the developer eventually ends up liable.


Again, the only person who can help you find a loophole to exploit with reliability is an attorney. That's one of their jobs - to find in the legal code what is possible when restricted in another area of the legal code. What may work for one developer in one country's jurisdiction may not work for you in your country's jurisdiction.

Also, this several versions of this question has been asked many times on this site. Here's a search which as you scroll through, you can find similar answers: https://f95zone.to/search/418453722...s]=1&c[container_only]=1&c[nodes][0]=9&o=date
Right, you need to find an attorney with IP experience, particularly in the music and entertainment industry --- and for your jurisdiction. The "world of adult games" is a subsection of video games, in general. It's not like there is any difference in the laws that must be followed.

And no, the advice of random people here are not better than even an attorney who recently passed the bar. Hell, the advice of random people here are not better than a law school student.

You're definitely right. You can listen to people from the forum and a professional lawyer, at the same time. One does not interfere with the other. The main thing is not to make rash, blind decisions.

 

[anne O'nymous]

I agree with the first part. As for the second, one of the jobs of an attorney is to utilize the laws at hand in order to thread the needle. There are a sizeable number of things which are "illegal" that are still accomplished on a daily basis because proper pathways are opened in order to subvert the legality. In most cases what an attorney can do is to give someone advice on what to do to give them the strongest affirmative defense against a possible claim by an IP holder (but no, an attorney worth their salt isn't going to risk their license to tell you to do something illegal -- but that's different than finding something in the code to give advice about affirmative defense options.)

In the present case, most countries have a notion of "fair use", that permit you to include in your own creation a short part of some created content as illustration or tribute. And a Lawyer is the most appropriate person to tell you what are the condition for this "fair use", as well as what are the limitations.
Especially for countries that rely on the "common law" system, where jurisprudence take a major place.

 

[Count Morado]

In the present case, most countries have a notion of "fair use", that permit you to include in your own creation a short part of some created content as illustration or tribute. And a Lawyer is the most appropriate person to tell you what are the condition for this "fair use", as well as what are the limitations.
Especially for countries that rely on the "common law" system, where jurisprudence take a major place.

Fair use is an "affirmative defense" and does not guarantee the ability to use. In fact, Fair use rarely passes the sniff test unless the respondent is very specific in how they use the IP within their own content (educational purposes or transformational or both) and does not profit from such use. Fair use has to be proven in a court of law - or at a court-mandated arbitration hearing.

And that will cost thousands in legal fees (at $1,000+ per billable hour, more than likely), as well as related costs. If the respondent is successful, they only have to worry about those costs. If the respondent loses, they can be held responsible for the claimant's legal fees, compensatory damages, and punitive damages, plus court costs.

But yes, again, that goes to my first response - the only good advice will come from a licensed attorney before doing something that may cost much more in the long-run.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Fair use is an "affirmative defense" and does not guarantee the ability to use. In fact, Fair use rarely passes the sniff test unless the respondent is very specific in how they use the IP within their own content (educational purposes or transformational or both) and does not profit from such use.

Not everywhere. In France by example fair use let you use up to 15 (from memory) seconds of a song. But I agree with you when it's countries that base their justice on common law, because the "limits" are more intuitive than strict. Reason, as I said, why a Lawyer will always be at a better place to answer OP, than nobodies on a forum.