Railroading Devs Don't Understand Basic Laws

[rynak]

I've observed this phenomenon with multiple games now: The dev wants to create a certain plot-device - often it's even the whole premise of the game - to force the player onto a certain path. The problem: The plot-device depends on laws that do not exist in any country on earth. Yet instead of coming up with a better device or reasoning, the dev either acts as if those laws do not exist, or he creates a fictional country on earth, because again: There is no country on earth with stupid laws like that.

To name one common example: The "overwhelming debt"-device. It goes like this: Because of (deus-ex machina) you owe someone N trillion dollars. You can't earn it with honest work, therefore you must fuck to pay the debt. Yes, it really is as stupid and lazy as it sounds. But more importantly: It's impossible in reality. Ever heard of insolvency? If you can't pay, you just don't pay. Simple as that.

I guess next you gonna say: "Oh, but wait: This ain't no legal claim. It's some ruthless criminals who will break your neck if you don't pay. They don't care about insolvency."

My answer: "Well, then all the player needs to do is, record the criminals confessing to extortion, hand it over to the cops and go into police protection."

Your next brainfart: "Oh, but you see: The criminals have uber-super-duper lawyer, that is impossible to defeat!"

My answer: "So it's basically magic?"

Cue even more contrived logic and deus-ex machina.

Meanwhile, you the dev have completely lost the point: What matters here isn't you justifying yourself. What matters is if the player BELIEVES YOU. Because if he doesn't believe the premise, then he thinks you and the game are cheating the player. Simple as that.

So, freaking spend one hour please, to come up with a good and plausible reason. And since i'm a writer myself, here's a hint: Let the lore work for you, instead of adapting the lore to fit your preconceived plotpoints. In a well-developed setting and lore, good plotpoints emerge on their own, because of the dynamics of the world.

 

[fffffffffffk]

You must be fun at parties

 

[eventualdream36]

But more importantly: It's impossible in reality. Ever heard of insolvency? If you can't pay, you just don't pay. Simple as that.

"You can't pay? Fug us or we'll kill you and rape you."
"I'm calling my lawyer!"
"Lol ok."
BANG

"Police! Police! This man raped and killed my daughter! Or maybe killed and raped, I can't remember."
"Miss, that man is a fine and upstanding pillar of the community. ... Plus, he's the mayor's son."
"But-"
"Epsetein didn't kill himself. Now fuck off."

 

[anne O'nymous]

Alright, lets assume that accuracy of adult games story is a really important point that must be address with all the needed seriousness :

Ever heard of insolvency? If you can't pay, you just don't pay. Simple as that.

Well... In many countries, when you can't pay, yes you can be put in insolvency... But in most of them it mean that all your possessions will be sold, the money used to pay, then only the rest of the debt will be forgot. Therefore, even in the real world, choosing to go through prostitution is a legit alternative to following the judicial path of insolvency.
And I'll not talk about the countries where insolvency isn't addressed by the Law ; because yes, there's surely some.

My answer: "Well, then all the player needs to do is, record the criminals confessing to extortion, hand it over to the cops and go into police protection."

Police protection isn't something magic. I remember 5 collaborators of a satirical journal here, or few judge in Italy, that could have explained this, if they weren't dead. Not all countries have a witness protection program that goes as far as the US one goes. As far as I know, they are the only one that can give you a new identity and life.
So, the problem isn't the "uber-super-duper lawyer", but the uber-super-duper assassins.

Meanwhile, you the dev have completely lost the point: What matters here isn't you justifying yourself. What matters is if the player BELIEVES YOU.

No, what matter is that the story stay coherent, whatever its premise ; as writer you should know this.
Take a classic of literacy, The Metamorphosis, by Franz Kafka. The premise of the story is absolutely not believable, yet the whole story is coherent and, like I said, the novel is now a classic.

If the author want to change the Law, he have all rights to do it, even if this change regard the physic's laws.
What mater is that his story stay coherent to this premise and to those changes. Like by example Rebirth, where the MC is turned into a vampire, and where the fact that he can't have an erection is stated, while the case in which it can still achieve this is explained in a rational way.



Now that this is said, can we address the fact that every looser MC turn into an alpha stud when he realize that he's 21 and haven't even kissed a girl yet ? Or the fact that every 21 virgin girl is a submissive nymphomaniac craving for dick ?
Because, personally, I found this way less believable than the fact that insolvency do not exist in a fictional story.

 

[Winterfire]

I would also like to mention that I have played games with such a plot and all of them were fantasy where earth laws simply do not apply (or are medieval, at best).
Also, almost all of them offer a legit way to actually repay said debt (while staying virgin), but of course prostitution is the easiest path and if you are playing a porn game, ofc you'll go with that.

 

[rynak]

Well... In many countries, when you can't pay, yes you can be put in insolvency... But in most of them it mean that all your possessions will be sold, the money used to pay, then only the rest of the debt will be forgot. Therefore, even in the real world, choosing to go through prostitution is a legit alternative to following the judicial path of insolvency.

Oh, absolutely. That kind of "trade" is plausible: There are situations where a char might not want to lose a lot of property, if it can be avoided by going a bit shady. But i was talking about game-scenarios where the MC is basically drowned into debt, in order to basically enslave him/her. There's numerous games where you're practically a debtslave FOREVER, as a device to simulate a weekly or monthly TAX, just because the dev couldn't come up with a more plausible way for increasing expenses.

Police protection isn't something magic. I remember 5 collaborators of a satirical journal here, or few judge in Italy, that could have explained this, if they weren't dead. Not all countries have a witness protection program that goes as far as the US one goes. As far as I know, they are the only one that can give you a new identity and life.

That's a good point. I didn't know this.

If the author want to change the Law, he have all rights to do it, even if this change regard the physic's laws.
What mater is that his story stay coherent to this premise and to those changes.

Well, there's such a thing as immersion and suspension of disbelieve. I'm fine with an internally consistent system of magic in a fantasyworld. Maybe even in an anime-style "magic girl"-setting. But when it comes to laws in a 21th century setting, where everything is depicted as realistic, EXCEPT for a handful laws that by coincidence are needed to make a deus-ex machina work, i'm calling bullshit on the author: "You're just cheating, because you're too lazy to make the plot work in a plausible way."

 

[polywog]

I've observed this phenomenon with multiple games now: The dev wants to create a certain plot-device - often it's even the whole premise of the game - to force the player onto a certain path. The problem: The plot-device depends on laws that do not exist in any country on earth. Yet instead of coming up with a better device or reasoning, the dev either acts as if those laws do not exist, or he creates a fictional country on earth, because again: There is no country on earth with stupid laws like that.

To name one common example: The "overwhelming debt"-device. It goes like this: Because of (deus-ex machina) you owe someone N trillion dollars. You can't earn it with honest work, therefore you must fuck to pay the debt. Yes, it really is as stupid and lazy as it sounds. But more importantly: It's impossible in reality. Ever heard of insolvency? If you can't pay, you just don't pay. Simple as that.

I guess next you gonna say: "Oh, but wait: This ain't no legal claim. It's some ruthless criminals who will break your neck if you don't pay. They don't care about insolvency."

My answer: "Well, then all the player needs to do is, record the criminals confessing to extortion, hand it over to the cops and go into police protection."

Your next brainfart: "Oh, but you see: The criminals have uber-super-duper lawyer, that is impossible to defeat!"

My answer: "So it's basically magic?"

Cue even more contrived logic and deus-ex machina.

Meanwhile, you the dev have completely lost the point: What matters here isn't you justifying yourself. What matters is if the player BELIEVES YOU. Because if he doesn't believe the premise, then he thinks you and the game are cheating the player. Simple as that.

So, freaking spend one hour please, to come up with a good and plausible reason. And since i'm a writer myself, here's a hint: Let the lore work for you, instead of adapting the lore to fit your preconceived plotpoints. In a well-developed setting and lore, good plotpoints emerge on their own, because of the dynamics of the world.

Unfortunately you are mistaken. Still to this day in many countries, including the United States, a person CAN be imprisoned for unpaid debt.

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More importantly.... LAWS DON"T PREVENT CRIMES, 99% get away with it.

 

[YSP=]

Organized crime still does loan sharking with "accidents" happening to those that don't pay. That and realism depends on the theme the game is going for.

 

[polywog]

I would also like to mention that I have played games with such a plot and all of them were fantasy where earth laws simply do not apply (or are medieval, at best).
Also, almost all of them offer a legit way to actually repay said debt (while staying virgin), but of course prostitution is the easiest path and if you are playing a porn game, ofc you'll go with that.

https://f95zone.to/threads/escape-from-fortress-lugohm-v1-01-barony-sengia.3561/

I was able to get her through the game while still a virgin, but the dev ended the game (spoiler) while she was still in the prison, so there was no escape.

 

[Deleted member 451676]

It's a porn game. Just fap and move on. Go consume proper literature and question it. This is porn.

 

[SirLoins]

I think you're expecting a little too much from some of these devs. A lot of them probably have no background in creative writing. Most of them can't afford to pay top notch writers. They work with what they are capable of doing. Sit back and enjoy the ride for what it is or move on.

 

[anne O'nymous]

But when it comes to laws in a 21th century setting, where everything is depicted as realistic, EXCEPT for a handful laws that by coincidence are needed to make a deus-ex machina work, i'm calling bullshit on the author: "You're just cheating, because you're too lazy to make the plot work in a plausible way."

Then you are the reason why nowadays there's TV series or books that starts with something like, "this world looks like ours, but isn't ours".

I agree with you on the fact that too many adult game authors abuse of deus ex machina twist, but they aren't on the premise of the story. Simply because the premise is the only part that we have to take as granted, without discussing it. It's what present the bases of the universe, and those bases can be whatever the author want.
How many student ended in a girls only college or dormitory ? Sorry, but in real life the reaction would be, "Oops, well we will correct this immediately, you'll obviously not stay here". And what about the few MC that end in a town where 99% of the population is female ? The women have children, but without husband and never ever had a son.
Here again, those premise are less believable than starting to prostitute yourself to pay your debt. Yet, it's the universe that the author decide to create, and we have to agree with it, like we agree with the fact that a human can one day awake as a cockroach.

 

[polywog]

Then you are the reason why nowadays there's TV series or books that starts with something like, "this world looks like ours, but isn't ours".

I agree with you on the fact that too many adult game authors abuse of deus ex machina twist, but they aren't on the premise of the story. Simply because the premise is the only part that we have to take as granted, without discussing it. It's what present the bases of the universe, and those bases can be whatever the author want.
How many student ended in a girls only college or dormitory ? Sorry, but in real life the reaction would be, "Oops, well we will correct this immediately, you'll obviously not stay here". And what about the few MC that end in a town where 99% of the population is female ? The women have children, but without husband and never ever had a son.
Here again, those premise are less believable than starting to prostitute yourself to pay your debt. Yet, it's the universe that the author decide to create, and we have to agree with it, like we agree with the fact that a human can one day awake as a cockroach.

A lot of people from the last few generations had "single mothers" or grew up without a father figure. As a result, they aren't learning responsibility, and accountability. They have a crazy sense of entitlement, and actually believe that they don't need to pay their debts.

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[WhitePhantom]

Going insolvent can ruin their lifestyle though.

In the UK if you go insolvent all assets can be taken if the bailiffs are sent round to enforce a debt, including your car if its worth over a grand.
They can take pretty much everything except one tv and your cooking equipment and bedding etc.
If you go bankrupt they'll take them too.
On top of that you have a 6 year blacklisting on your credit score.

So I get that some very comfortable woman may fuck their way out of it.
I know girls at my uni who e-whore just to pay for their piss ups every weekend, it isn't that unrealistic to imagine somebody going to full whoring to avoid losing everything they have.

 

[RanliLabz]

Hey rynak - I think that you're labouring under a lot of misapprehensions with this post.

Even if your premise was true, as a writer you'll be aware that the starting point of almost every work of fiction is 'what if...?'. It is not unreasonable for a writer to create a world identical to ours except for one key difference - and if that's a law allowing sexual slavery for debt-repayment, it hardly strains credulity. Especially if the writer has created a 'fictional country on earth' to allow for their plot... I mean - that's just fiction, right? How about a Middle Eastern country where all women must be nude rather than cover up? A futa-only tribe in the Amazon? A country where men are owned by women? Fiction allows you to do whatever you like as long as the story carries an internal logic.

However, your basic premise isn't true:

Insolvency:
I'm going to assume that you're American - i.e. from a country with the most relaxed insolvency laws on the planet. So relaxed, in fact, that occasional insolvency is part of prudent financial planning for wealthy individuals and small-to-medium sized companies.

Most other countries are not like this. I'm from England, where going bankrupt is a disaster (and I have seen someone go through it). As WhitePhantom says, court-appointed bailiffs will take almost everything you own, and a trustee will be in charge of deducting money from your income for around a year. Afterwards, you will struggle to open a bank account or get insurance, and you will not be able to secure any kind of credit for at least 6 years. You won't be able to start a company or serve as a director; many professions (like solicitor) will be permanently closed to you; and the social and legal stigma will make it hard for you to obtain good employment. Basically, any aspirations of having a middle-class life are wiped out... and I personally would at least consider temporary prostitution rather than endure this.

I won't pretend to know how insolvency works in the other 200 countries on earth - but many countries have no insolvency laws worth the name at all; or ones that only assist the wealthy.

Police Protection:
Again, the US witness protection programs are unusual - a result of a highly developed country with a long history of organised crime syndicates - and many countries have no such thing. In fact, many countries have corrupt police forces, no effective police at all, or police forces designed as an armed wing of government rather than the guarantors of law and order. As a side note, many devs come from Russia - try reporting the Bratva to the Russian cops and see how fast you and your family's chopped-up body-parts can float down the Volga while the officers go shopping for new watches

Super Duper Lawyer:
Yup... a super-duper lawyer can fuck you, even if you're innocent. Loan/payment recovery is a civil proceeding, meaning each side must pay legal fees. That benefits the wealthier party (in an insolvency case, that will not be the defendant) who may simply outspend you to victory. Legal aid is increasingly hard to access (at least in both the US and the UK) and commercial lawyers will be reluctant to take an insolvency case without upfront payment for fear of not getting their money.

N trillion dollars:
The nature of debt is that it spirals... and by the time you're down to the loan-sharks you're really fucked. There are so many reasons this can happen - a gambling/drug addiction, unexpected healthcare bills in countries like the US, a failure to keep up insurance, payment to people traffickers... as it gets worse the interest goes up: 18% APR turns to 100%, the overdraft late-fees are mounting, a pay-day loan saves you for a month at 2400% - but then you have to turn to the loanshark to pay that, and the vig is so high you'll never get out from under it... meaning that now that loanshark owns you.

 

[polywog]

Afterwards, you will struggle to open a bank account or get insurance, and you will not be able to secure any kind of credit for at least 6 years. You won't be able to start a company or serve as a director; many professions (like solicitor) will be permanently closed to you; and the social and legal stigma will make it hard for you to obtain good employment.

"According to the FBI, a poor credit history may not disqualify you as a job candidate. However, it could delay hiring until the negative entries on your credit are resolved. If the issues on your credit report are significant, such as bankruptcies and multiple judgements, security clearance may be denied."

To pass a background investigation for top security clearance, there are two things they look at... you can't have drug charges, and you must have perfect credit. Plain and simple, if you don't pay bills, you aren't trustworthy. Doesn't matter how many people you've killed, an old phone bill that you didn't pay in the 1990s could stand in the way of you working for the government, including work in the public, and private sectors.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Police Protection:
Again, the US witness protection programs are unusual - a result of a highly developed country with a long history of organised crime syndicates - and many countries have no such thing.

On this particular point, the size of the country is also something that have to be take in count.
Italy have a longer history of organized crime syndicates, but where do you want to relocate the witness ? It help to have a good working witness protection program when relocating someone mean, reported to Europe, that there's at least one whole country between his old location and the new one.
In an European country, whatever how far you are moved, 10 hours on the road would be, more or less, the highest possible distance between your previous and actual location.

 

[おい！]

I've observed this phenomenon with multiple games now: The dev wants to create a certain plot-device - often it's even the whole premise of the game - to force the player onto a certain path. The problem: The plot-device depends on laws that do not exist in any country on earth. Yet instead of coming up with a better device or reasoning, the dev either acts as if those laws do not exist, or he creates a fictional country on earth, because again: There is no country on earth with stupid laws like that.

To name one common example: The "overwhelming debt"-device. It goes like this: Because of (deus-ex machina) you owe someone N trillion dollars. You can't earn it with honest work, therefore you must fuck to pay the debt. Yes, it really is as stupid and lazy as it sounds. But more importantly: It's impossible in reality. Ever heard of insolvency? If you can't pay, you just don't pay. Simple as that.

I guess next you gonna say: "Oh, but wait: This ain't no legal claim. It's some ruthless criminals who will break your neck if you don't pay. They don't care about insolvency."

My answer: "Well, then all the player needs to do is, record the criminals confessing to extortion, hand it over to the cops and go into police protection."

Your next brainfart: "Oh, but you see: The criminals have uber-super-duper lawyer, that is impossible to defeat!"

My answer: "So it's basically magic?"

Cue even more contrived logic and deus-ex machina.

Meanwhile, you the dev have completely lost the point: What matters here isn't you justifying yourself. What matters is if the player BELIEVES YOU. Because if he doesn't believe the premise, then he thinks you and the game are cheating the player. Simple as that.

So, freaking spend one hour please, to come up with a good and plausible reason. And since i'm a writer myself, here's a hint: Let the lore work for you, instead of adapting the lore to fit your preconceived plotpoints. In a well-developed setting and lore, good plotpoints emerge on their own, because of the dynamics of the world.

 

[eventualdream36]

Going insolvent can ruin their lifestyle though.

In the UK if you go insolvent all assets can be taken if the bailiffs are sent round to enforce a debt, including your car if its worth over a grand.
They can take pretty much everything except one tv and your cooking equipment and bedding etc.

Only thing I know of UK baliffs is from episodes of If you can't pay we'll take it away where usually the guy shows on your doorstep and yeets your car, or you have 5 minutes to pack a suitcase before your house and everything in it disappears.

 

[rynak]

Going insolvent can ruin their lifestyle though.

In the UK if you go insolvent all assets can be taken if the bailiffs are sent round to enforce a debt, including your car if its worth over a grand.
They can take pretty much everything except one tv and your cooking equipment and bedding etc.
If you go bankrupt they'll take them too.
On top of that you have a 6 year blacklisting on your credit score.

So I get that some very comfortable woman may fuck their way out of it.
I know girls at my uni who e-whore just to pay for their piss ups every weekend, it isn't that unrealistic to imagine somebody going to full whoring to avoid losing everything they have.

Completely agree. As said in my previous post, there are scenarios where it's plausible for the player to go on the seedy path, in order to keep property (or lifestyle) he cares about. What isn't plausible (in a modern day setting) is to ENSLAVE the MC by means of debt. And by enslaving i mean completely stripping the MC of control, so that it's forced to DO ANYTHING - even stuff he/she'd never do if there was an alternative. This thread has "railroading" in the title for a reason: I'm not talking about subtly "coaxing" the MC onto a path, but outright railroading: "You must do something you'd never consent to, because of a plot-device that isn't plausible with modern day laws."