Reading other characters' thoughts

SadCoomer

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Sep 26, 2020
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Hello everyone, hopefully this is the right place for this thread

Anyway, I'm seeing in a lot of games that you can read the thoughts of the various girls the same way as you do with the mc's. For example a girl can say "Go away creep!" and then in the next frame the dialogue box shows that she's actually thinking "God he's so hot" (this is all to make a very stupid and simple exemple)

Anyone else feels that this is a bit like cheating? You know everything about the girl (or the boy) since the first moment you meet her and receive immediate feedback on any choice, sometimes the game straight up tells you which is the right thing to do

I realize that the choices are not the main focus of these games (hehe), but it really bums me when a game offers an interesting plot that gets completely ruined because you already know everything since day 1
 

Jofur

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May 22, 2018
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While seeing others characters thoughts is just lazy writing, sometimes seeing someone's reaction can be helpful. It depends on the gameplay style. For choice based VN I think leave it to the player to figure things out, but for "sandbox" games with relationship points and stuff. I think showing direct progress is key to making the player feel like they are advancing. Either with just a quick popup or a meter going up or something.
 

Rafster

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Yup I also feel it like cheating. And I can't come out with a logical explanation for it either, unless the MC have psychic powers or something like that.
 
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Jaike

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Anyone else feels that this is a bit like cheating? You know everything about the girl (or the boy) since the first moment you meet her and receive immediate feedback on any choice, sometimes the game straight up tells you which is the right thing to do

I realize that the choices are not the main focus of these games (hehe), but it really bums me when a game offers an interesting plot that gets completely ruined because you already know everything since day 1
Yes and I think that is the mainstream opinion, that is also indicated by the fact that the posters above have more or less the same opinion, and it is also a sign that the writer is not very skilled. Often enough it's a fantastic way to throw any built-up tension right out of the window and in many cases, if the writer is sufficiently bad, it comes at the expense of genuine characterisation. I think it is less jarring if it is a device to show a discrepancy between a character's words and feeling, but it does leave me wondering why the writer wouldn't just reveal the character's true feelings at a later point. I agree with Rafster's caveat though: mind reading powers can be a valid reason to see another character's thoughts, but even in that scenario it should be used sparingly.

I also think that the combination of a clearly omniscient narrator and reading the protagonist's thoughts is at least a little inelegant. If we're going to see a character's thoughts, keep the narrator close to that character please.
 
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anne O'nymous

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While seeing others characters thoughts is just lazy writing, sometimes seeing someone's reaction can be helpful.
And/or poor scene building and CG building capabilities.

There's one scene in The DeLuca Family, where Isabel say one thing, while her expressions and postures tell the exact opposite. This is way better, and a more pleasant experience, than a dialog line that would say, "no, we can only be friends", followed by a thoughts line that would looks like, "oh my god, I want him so much". Not only because, as player, we are active, having the need to analyze the scene like we would do if it was a real situation. But also because it make the dialog more dynamic, since it isn't interrupted by the said thoughts.
And this isn't limited to conflicting thoughts. Heavy Five follow the same logic in its scenes. It's by example the case of most scenes with Sarah, where the innuendos are suggested more by her expressions, that become more and more lustful, than by the dialog lines themselves.


It depends on the gameplay style. For choice based VN I think leave it to the player to figure things out, but for "sandbox" games with relationship points and stuff. I think showing direct progress is key to making the player feel like they are advancing.
You can perfectly show those progress without needing to show the character thoughts.
Take the classical mom/son incest situation. To express the fact that the mother slowly open herself to the idea to have sex with her son, you can rely on her expression, attitude and clothing, in addition to the sole dialogs.
When the son will say the usual, "but no mom, you're the most beautiful woman I know, even more beautiful that girls my age", she'll have a cold and closed expression if the points aren't high enough, while she'll have a big smile else. There's no need for more to tell if she think it's out of question, or if she's effectively pleased that her son see her as a woman he can have sex with.
Same when MC "accidentally" feel her. She'll make a step back and put her arms between them if she don't have enough points, while she'll just not move else. Either she try to protect herself against this unsuitable touch, or she let him continue.
And finally, if she's still opposed to the idea, she'll wear more clothes, and loose clothes, in order to hide her body, as much as possible ; both to protect herself against the unsuitable touching, and to avoid tempting her son. While she'll tend to wear more provocative clothes when her points will mean "hey son, do you want to make out ?"

And it can perfectly reflect the situation with enough subtlety to express the change made by a single point.
She's totally closed to the idea ? She make a step back immediately. Then, she'll wait two dialog lines before making it, when the player earned the first point. When he earned the second, her arms will be more lax, still protecting her, but less. When he earned the third, she make the step back, but don't protect herself anymore. And when he earned the fourth, there's a small pose at the end of the scene, where we see her have a small and short smile once the son have turned his back.
Then you change the reaction. For the fifth point, she turn to face her son, but she don't make the step back anymore. And so on, until the moment the player have earned enough point for the mother to accept being felt by her son.
 

Jofur

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May 22, 2018
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You can perfectly show those progress without needing to show the character thoughts.
You can, but it is a lot of work to make a slew of unique poses, dialogue and clothing styles for every character for every level of their relationship. It's definitely the best solution if you have the energy and time to do it however.

Showing some concrete evidence of "this action made her like you more, and roughly this is how much more you need to keep at it to reach the next level" can help avoid the grind/not knowing what to do next that some of these games suffer from.
For example games like Stardew Valley I think is a good example to take inspiration from. You could get all of the information from just the dialogue when you talk to people, but it also has a handy progress bar you can look at to can get an overview. It helps a lot in deciding how to approach things.
 

Adabelitoo

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I don't think it's cheating or a bad resource, but I do think that sometimes is extremely overused and it's especially overused for devs without previous experiences in writing/story telling.

I read books, mangas, doujins, LNs, etc. Reading/knowing what every character thinks it's pretty usual there. I really don't see why VNs should be different. It's a resource as valid as having a narrator in the story or the the story showing what other characters do and say when the MC isn't around them.
 

VegitoHlove

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Apr 27, 2018
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Yeah, I can see why it may be considered cheating and in some cases IS cheating. The idea of if you're the MC (Whom has no established mind-reading capabilities) how could you possibly know what the girl is thinking, I mean you can guess/assume but that's not the same thing.

There is another way to look at it though, let say like a DnD session, even if the DM doesn't tell players what an NPC is thinking, as a player (As opposed to MCs)you'll always have access to knowledge the character you're playing as doesn't know, what one can and in DnD is expected to do is disregard the "Meta knowledge" they have and only act on information the character/MC has.
 

moskyx

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You can, but it is a lot of work to make a slew of unique poses, dialogue and clothing styles for every character for every level of their relationship. It's definitely the best solution if you have the energy and time to do it however.

Showing some concrete evidence of "this action made her like you more, and roughly this is how much more you need to keep at it to reach the next level" can help avoid the grind/not knowing what to do next that some of these games suffer from.
For example games like Stardew Valley I think is a good example to take inspiration from. You could get all of the information from just the dialogue when you talk to people, but it also has a handy progress bar you can look at to can get an overview. It helps a lot in deciding how to approach things.
If you, as a Dev, are not willing to make that extra effort, then I don't think you'll get anywhere with your game. That kind of attention to details is what set appart top games from the ordinary trash. You'll also be treating your players as intelligent people who can get hints, which is also nice
 

Janice Davis

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Sep 27, 2020
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On a slightly different note - when the MC is female, a lot of the male characters, while saying something like "Have a nice day, miss," are secretly thinking "What a great ass! I'd love to fuck her."
I don't mind this, it's just showing that all the men are horny pervs, which is usually the case anyway.
 

Jofur

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May 22, 2018
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If you, as a Dev, are not willing to make that extra effort, then I don't think you'll get anywhere with your game. That kind of attention to details is what set appart top games from the ordinary trash. You'll also be treating your players as intelligent people who can get hints, which is also nice
Fair enough. Not that I can really think of any stat-based sandbox games that does it to the extent where some non-diegetic information also wouldn't be appreciated. While showing characters thoughts/stats might be on the lazier side, it can't be denied that many games have gotten incredibly popular while doing it.
 

Adabelitoo

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Jun 24, 2018
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Yup I also feel it like cheating. And I can't come out with a logical explanation for it either, unless the MC have psychic powers or something like that.
Logical explanation? Come on dude, what is the logical explanation for your average harem/incest game when a boy fucks +20 girls and gets to have threesomes/foursomes with his girls even if some of those girls never knew of each other before that scene?

Yeah, I can see why it may be considered cheating and in some cases IS cheating. The idea of if you're the MC (Whom has no established mind-reading capabilities) how could you possibly know what the girl is thinking, I mean you can guess/assume but that's not the same thing.
Related to above, the MC =/= the player. That's a choice that must players like to believe but that's something that players choice to believe by themselves, it isn't like it's always the dev's intended way to tell the story.

Unless the MC thinks something like "Oh shit! I can read her thoughts!" after knowing what the girl just thought the first times, the idea of reading the girls thoughts is that the player will get that info, not the MC. There is no mindreading or lack of logic behind that, it's just the classic "let's give more information to the player than the MC" tool.
 
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Doorknob22

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Nov 3, 2017
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Hello everyone, hopefully this is the right place for this thread

Anyway, I'm seeing in a lot of games that you can read the thoughts of the various girls the same way as you do with the mc's. For example a girl can say "Go away creep!" and then in the next frame the dialogue box shows that she's actually thinking "God he's so hot" (this is all to make a very stupid and simple exemple)

Anyone else feels that this is a bit like cheating? You know everything about the girl (or the boy) since the first moment you meet her and receive immediate feedback on any choice, sometimes the game straight up tells you which is the right thing to do

I realize that the choices are not the main focus of these games (hehe), but it really bums me when a game offers an interesting plot that gets completely ruined because you already know everything since day 1
I hate it with passion, this is nothing but lazy writing, the exact opposite of "show, don't tell".
 
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desmosome

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Lots of strong opinions here. I'm guessing most people that dislike hearing other characters' thoughts are self inserters or at least heavily roleplaying as the MC.

The root of the issue isn't really just about non-MC thoughts. The bigger picture is in narrative style and POV. Not the self insert camera angles and covering the face type of POV, but the narrative POV.

How many devs even wrote a story before? I'm sure a lot of devs don't even ponder what POV they want to write in. First, second, or third person narration, or just do away with narration altogether? Any style can work, but there should be some consistency. There is no concrete rule that you should never mix narrative POVs, but these decisions should be made intentionally. In general, sticking to one POV is the common advice in writing. I'd say that poor writers tend to mainly stick to dialogues and internal thoughts of various characters because they do not have the writing skills to describe scenes or situations in exquisite detail using narration.

Let's look at an example. I'm not a writer, so this is just a technical demonstration of how thoughts can be translated into narration.

'Oh my god, my son's dick is so big.' A common trope we see all the time.
1st person narration: I see her blushing as she looks down at my crotch.
2nd person narration: You see her blushing as she looks down at your crotch.
3rd person narration: [Mother_Name] sees MC's huge cock and becomes a quivering mess. (joke entry)
No narration: Show this reaction with just renders. Or indeed, you could just write the non-MC thoughts.

You could certainly have internal thoughts of the MC and others while still having narration in places. The bottom line is that this decision is part of the very basic planning that should be done prior to writing a script. The writing style should be intentional and stay consistent throughout. You can absolutely tell if the writer is just writing shit without thinking about this stuff.

edit: Oops. Looked through my post just now and my 3rd person example was in 2nd person before.
 
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Jaike

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Lots of strong opinions here. I'm guessing most people that dislike hearing other characters' thoughts are self inserters or at least heavily roleplaying as the MC.
That doesn't have to be the case at all, it's not as if it is considered as an elegant solution in literature for example. I for one never self-insert and seldom roleplay as the MC. Getting to read all characters thoughts is quite uncommon in written fiction outside of comic books. Even those spoken 'thought' monologues in films or theatre plays tend only to happen where there is only one POV character.

The root of the issue isn't really just about non-MC thoughts. The bigger picture is in narrative style and POV. Not the self insert camera angles and covering the face type of POV, but the narrative POV.

How many devs even wrote a story before? I'm sure a lot of devs don't even ponder what POV they want to write in. First, second, or third person narration, or just do away with narration altogether? Any style can work, but there should be some consistency. There is no concrete rule that you should never mix narrative POVs, but these decisions should be made intentionally. In general, sticking to one POV is the common advice in writing.
I think it's also totally fine if the POV occasionally moves from one character to another, as in A Song of Ice and Fire, as long as it is not very jumpy and the narrator does not end up all over the place.
 

anne O'nymous

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There is no concrete rule that you should never mix narrative POVs, but these decisions should be made intentionally. In general, sticking to one POV is the common advice in writing.
His name don't cross my mind right now, but there's at least one modern book author who write all his stories with an alternation between first person POV and third person POV, one chapter for each. But as you said, it's intentional. It's his style signature, and it works fine because he already know the story will be wrote this way when he's still just letting it grow in his mind.
By opposition to the (too many) devs who seem to pass from one POV to the other for random reasons. Bonus points if they stick to a first person camera, but have third person dialogs that show the internal thoughts of the non-MC characters.


I'd say that poor writers tend to mainly stick to dialogues and internal thoughts of various characters because they do not have the writing skills to describe scenes or situations in exquisite detail using narration.
Strictly speaking, it's not just a question of writing. Whatever if it's 2D or 3D CGs, finding, then effectively making, the right pose and expression to fit the situation isn't something easy. And it obviously become more difficult when you've oppose this to the dialog lines.
  • What she's saying disagree with MC's intent, I'll make her grumpy.
  • But wait, secretly she's agreeing, I need to make her happy.
  • Stop, if I make her happy, it will feel totally odd in regard of what she say.
  • How the fuck do one make a grumpily-happy or happily-grumpy expression ?


1st person narration: I see her blushing as she looks down at my crotch.
More, "wait, has she blushed while looking at my crotch ?"
A first person narration should be interrogative when it's about others reaction. Reading other's thoughts through their expression and behavior is something difficult. Any average human only assume that it can be what happened, but there's always a part of doubt. It's only if the said reaction stay for a long enough time ("yes, it's clearly why she's blushing"), or happen more than once ("she was, and she's doing it again") that it can become affirmative. Because it's a confirmation of our assumption.
Take the classical "you're in a half crowded place, and a girl looks in your direction and smile. Is she smiling because she find you charming, or because at your left, or right, there's a good old friend of hers ? It's only times that will tell you this. Either because her eyes will follow you when you'll move, or because the said friend will pass you and react in return.


No narration: Show this reaction with just renders. Or indeed, you could just write the non-MC thoughts.
It's here that it become tricky. Not all situation can be expressed through a first person POV camera ; or more precisely, can expressed in an obvious enough way.
Encouraged by the reaction of her mother, the MC decide to let his hand slightly brush her ass when she leave. Even if you overdo it, and make the MC looks right at his mother ass to show what is happening, the mother is turning her back to the MC. This mean that, by default (first person Camera and narration) you can't show her reaction.
Then you've to trick, making the scene happen in a room where there's a mirror, and placing the characters in such way that the mirror will show what's the reaction of the mother. Or you can use the sister as intermediary ; she's entering the room at this moment, and once the mother have left say something like, "I don't know what you where talking about, but I assume that for once you haven't be a dick, since mom was smiling".
And obviously, this isn't always possible, what mean that you've to plan your story beforehand not just in regard of the situation, but also in regard of their context. If something happen, whatever this something, you've to know before you start to write the scene and build the CGs, that you'll be able to show the key moment instead of finding yourself in such position that you have to fall back to the narration or non-MC internal thoughts.


You could certainly have internal thoughts of the MC and others while still having narration in places.
MC's internal thoughts are something different. If you rely mostly on first person camera, you've no way to show them. Plus, depending of the context, they can make perfect sens.
A game like Shattered, by example, make an intensive use of MC's thoughts. But the said MC is half psychotic and half depressive, therefore it fit the personality and don't feel wrong. Same for The DeLuca Family's MC, who was an average Joe, and the day after was forced to be part of a mafia family, climb his way out of it, while having a target on his back (so far he survived three assassination attempts). It's clearly a context in which anyone would pass a lot of time thinking about a way to save his ass.

But at the opposite, the average "wanna fuck them all" MC have no reason to be so lost in thoughts. It can only works if you want to express a dichotomy between his desire (be the Alphaest alpha in the town) and his personality (good mama boy who would put his vest on the ground for his princess to not wet her shoes). But it's not what most of those MC are supposed to be. The game sell them as guys of actions, therefore you shouldn't make them pass so much time reflecting about themselves and the others.
To use your "mama looks at my crotch" example, such MC wouldn't thought, nor question the mothers attitude. Assuming that he isn't totally stupid, he would assume that his mother like to looks at his crotch and place himself in such way that she'll have a better view. And if it's not the first time, or if he's totally stupid, he would also be bold, asking her if she like the view.



What lead to the main reason why so many games rely on internal thoughts: The lack of psychology background of their author.

The say instead of showing, because they can't put themselves on the shoes of the characters, and therefore don't know how they would react in such situation. It's why, in place of a blushing mother with an embarrassed expression, they make her think "my son's dick is sooooo big". And why instead of the alpha MC they want to depict taking action, they write beta MC who pass most of their time reflecting about what the others are thinking.

But this isn't a fatality. They should just sit back on their chair, and let their mind wander in their past. We all seen persons embarrassed by a situation. We all witnessed people being too bold. They just need to remember those memories, to find the information they are missing.
And with time, it will become easier, because it will pass from a second hand knowledge ("this particular time, she reacted like this") to a conscious knowledge ("face to such situation, she'll react this way").
 
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