Daz Should there be light where no light exit?

[coffeeaddicted]

Here is my problem.

For the scene i am using the Desert Motel.
The office is in a way constructed that light shines through the windows. You have some headlights that illuminate the desk and a wall with a door behind you.
So thats fine.
Now the problem.

There should be a sex scene behind the counter. Also fine.
I placed some primitives around them and that works fine. But of course, from the back there is a wall. Normally there wouldn't be any light.
From a game perspective, should there be light to highlight the characters?

I really don't want them to shine like there is sun.

Here is a screen shot of the scene. So i like to really have an opinion what the best approach is. It suppose to be realistic but at the same time you are also suppose to see whats going on.
The sun is shinning from the front through the glass which isn't in the preset.



Thanks as always

 

[coffeeaddicted]

Nevermind. I just realized that i did not have the emitting light high enough which i use for the shots.

 

[moose_puck]

Just a thought... from the perspective shown in the shot, you don't have to worry about shadows made by your two characters on any of the scene --- SO -- just render the scene without the two characters, then render the characters separately, getting the light the way you like on them. And then you can composite the image in Photoshop or whatever other program you use.

Not only will this be an easier way to get the lighting set up, but it will probably be much faster then doing the render of the whole thing at once.

Also, you get the benefit of being able to tweak things in PS... the Shadows/Highlights adjustments in PS are great for getting those bright backlit scenes balanced correctly with the foreground.

If you did have some shadows (on the counter, for example) then you can still do as I suggested above but add a step. Do the back ground fully. On the second step, do a spot render of the characters (with their shadows) while in the scene. Don't worry too much how the characters are looking in this one - you're just catching their shadows. Then do the final character only render with your new lighting. Slap the three images on top of each other and you'll get good results.


Alternatively, you could put a rectangular Ghost Light on the wall facing the characters and then set it for a low level, like 100 watts or so and maybe 3500K temp. That would give a solid diffuse light without it looking like a spot or point light. And the GL's don't show up in renders if you want to quickly change camera angles around.

 

[coffeeaddicted]

Just a thought... from the perspective shown in the shot, you don't have to worry about shadows made by your two characters on any of the scene --- SO -- just render the scene without the two characters, then render the characters separately, getting the light the way you like on them. And then you can composite the image in Photoshop or whatever other program you use.

Not only will this be an easier way to get the lighting set up, but it will probably be much faster then doing the render of the whole thing at once.

Also, you get the benefit of being able to tweak things in PS... the Shadows/Highlights adjustments in PS are great for getting those bright backlit scenes balanced correctly with the foreground.

If you did have some shadows (on the counter, for example) then you can still do as I suggested above but add a step. Do the back ground fully. On the second step, do a spot render of the characters (with their shadows) while in the scene. Don't worry too much how the characters are looking in this one - you're just catching their shadows. Then do the final character only render with your new lighting. Slap the three images on top of each other and you'll get good results.


Alternatively, you could put a rectangular Ghost Light on the wall facing the characters and then set it for a low level, like 100 watts or so and maybe 3500K temp. That would give a solid diffuse light without it looking like a spot or point light. And the GL's don't show up in renders if you want to quickly change camera angles around.

Oh yes. I haven't done that actually. Like to render it separately. Is that what everyone does?

My main concern was, how believable the scene is depending on the lightning.
In that scene, sun is coming from the front (though the prob has the sun from the side) and there are lamps hanging down the desk. But behind is a wall (which i disabled).
So if these two characters are more or less in the a darker environment, would that be realistic?

Like i said, i have primitives setup on both sides and above. There is actually a plane on the back but i think i did not make a long enough.

Since i started, not so long ago, lightning was a difficult thing to do. Now i am more experienced but there are still the details of where light really falls or shins through.
So i am always reminded how light appears where i sit. I have only a small flat and my door is usually open. And the light comes right through there. The windows not really as there are threes.

To you photoshop options. Definitely. I just never did it that way. I really love to have it done in DAZ but i will try that too. Maybe that will be quicker. Figures take additional time rendering.
I think this technique is probably a must if you add a lot of characters to a scene. I remember that above 5 characters are not doable on my machine.

3D is really fascinating to me.

Thanks for responding.

 

[mickydoo]

Get the realistic ideals out of your head, if two characters are fucking thats what you want to see, not some dimly lit affair. Putting DAZ charcaters into a dim light will never work, they need the light.

 

[MissFortune]

I think you're over-complicating it, if I'm understanding you right.

A rule of thumb when lighting is that if it sticks out, it's usually not right (unless it's just very good, e.g. PhillyGames.). Lighting needs to make sense to look natural, and for it to look natural, it needs to make sense. Now, lighting, especially in Hollywood, can be very much faux'd. It tends to be that way more than it isn't. But if the lighting isn't natural, then how does it make sense? Because they make it make sense. They often use a technique (the actual term is escaping me currently) where they preface the lighting. They show the viewer where the light is in some way or another (usually in an artistic interlude-esque type of way), and then offer that as the main light source while using logical ambient lighting for accents.

So, basically, show your users a supposed light source, and then adjust it as needed when they can't see it. Though, something like this might be a bit further along than where you're at currently. Lighting-wise, at least.

Spoiler: Examples

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So, just to clarify, those examples in the spoiler would look nothing like they do here in real life. It'd likely be much darker and the shadows would likely be much sharper. There's a lot of fake lighting happening in those renders. But they feel natural because you've seen the light source - or at least you think you have.

 

[Smbt3D]

This one is put together in post work (and just put together no other fancy stuff that could be done in PW)
Her rendered with the preset blurred HDR, the rest with the other HDR shown in the BG
(of course the direction of the light should be matching by rotating the environment HDR).
Doesn't look that faked imo.





mickydoo
totally agree, after all people are playing a porn game

 

[jamdan]

The term MissFortune was looking for is "motivated" and "unmotivated" lighting.

Motivated lighting is where the viewer knows where the light is coming from. Even if that light isn't seen on the scene (or even exists anymore, as they replaced it with a spotlight or something). For example, you show a lamp to the side of a character. Then when you render the character themselves, the lamp isn't there. But the viewer thinks it is. So the lighting cast on the character makes sense. It came from the lamp.

Practical lighting is similar. But the light source is still in the frame. So, the lamp from the above example is still viewable by the viewer.

Unmotivated lighting is where the viewer doesn't know where the light is coming from. This can still be used, but it isn't as realistic.

This

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is really solid for lighting. They show the setups and techniques they use to get different looks. Obviously, it doesn't apply 1-1 to 3D. Like you wouldn't use a gel sheet over the light in 3D, just change emissive color. But pretty much everything used in IRL lighting has a 3D equivalent.

 

[moose_puck]

This is why I love this section of the forum. So much too learn!

Obviously, lighting is arguably the single hardest skill in Daz rendering to learn. You can get results that "don't look bad" in a few tutorials, but the truly awesome renders were done by people who spent a lot of time learning the skills.

Personally, now that I have almost finished my teaching project, I plan on diving into two subjects that can maybe help me rise above amateur level... Lighting and skin textures on models and making them more photo realistic. I'm still handicapped by my lack of hardware but I am going to start simple, like maybe lighting primitives that have different textures loaded.. that sort of thing.

 

[MissFortune]

Lighting and skin textures on models and making them more photo realistic. I'm still handicapped by my lack of hardware but I am going to start simple, like maybe lighting primitives that have different textures loaded.. that sort of thing.

8.1/PBR models look great and are easy to work with skin-wise, but they will remind you of your hardware handicap. Even with some well optimized scenes, I'm still barely squeezing in two 8.1 figures on my 3080, depending on the environment. Though that may have more to do with overly complicated lighting than Daz itself. I'd probably stick with the higher quality G8 models from the bigger creators (Raiya, bluejaunte, etc.) and getting an idea of how to optimize your lighting until you can get something a bit beefier going in the GPU department.

Obviously, lighting is arguably the single hardest skill in Daz rendering to learn. You can get results that "don't look bad" in a few tutorials, but the truly awesome renders were done by people who spent a lot of time learning the skills.

Honestly, outside of a select couple Daz tutorials I've watched (Dreamlight's stuff is probably the most solid you're going to find for Daz.), and while lot of what I learned came from trial and error, actual cinematic lighting tutorials were the ones that really stuck after I figured out how to apply them in Daz. Lot of ingenious ideas that are easily applicable in Daz, sometimes even easier than real lighting. It's also sort of crazy how often Rembrandt lighting just seems to work for everything.

 

[coffeeaddicted]

I think you're over-complicating it, if I'm understanding you right.

A rule of thumb when lighting is that if it sticks out, it's usually not right (unless it's just very good, e.g. PhillyGames.). Lighting needs to make sense to look natural, and for it to look natural, it needs to make sense. Now, lighting, especially in Hollywood, can be very much faux'd. It tends to be that way more than it isn't. But if the lighting isn't natural, then how does it make sense? Because they make it make sense. They often use a technique (the actual term is escaping me currently) where they preface the lighting. They show the viewer where the light is in some way or another (usually in an artistic interlude-esque type of way), and then offer that as the main light source while using logical ambient lighting for accents.

So, basically, show your users a supposed light source, and then adjust it as needed when they can't see it. Though, something like this might be a bit further along than where you're at currently. Lighting-wise, at least.

Spoiler: Examples

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

So, just to clarify, those examples in the spoiler would look nothing like they do here in real life. It'd likely be much darker and the shadows would likely be much sharper. There's a lot of fake lighting happening in those renders. But they feel natural because you've seen the light source - or at least you think you have.

Oh my.
Yes, i think i do overthink.
I feel like i don't get it right. It seems i have to part from the idea to make it real and concentrate on making them light up for scenes.
I can't say how much i hate the scene i been doing because i render and render for the best outcome and somehow i am always dissatisfied because it doesn't look the way i wanted.
I will take that to heart and try to concentrate on the characters instead to have them stick out, to give them the attention.

To me the biggest challenge is to figure out how intense the light needs to be for a scene.
Like yours in the taxi, it seems just enough light to illuminate.

Its back to the drawing board to make it right, even if i hate the scene already.

Thanks both (mickydoo and MissFortune) of you for correcting me and for the examples.

 

[coffeeaddicted]

This one is put together in post work (and just put together no other fancy stuff that could be done in PW)
Her rendered with the preset blurred HDR, the rest with the other HDR shown in the BG
(of course the direction of the light should be matching by rotating the environment HDR).
Doesn't look that faked imo.



View attachment 1946836

mickydoo
totally agree, after all people are playing a porn game

Man, i am just curious. How did you do that? The background of the desk looks darker but she is lit up. Looks so nice.

Was this done separately? This would make sense. I have to learn more.... omg...

 

[coffeeaddicted]

Get the realistic ideals out of your head, if two characters are fucking thats what you want to see, not some dimly lit affair. Putting DAZ charcaters into a dim light will never work, they need the light.

This is probably true.
I always thought, the lightning source should make sense for the scene. But i think i went into the other direction in my thinking.
So yes, i kind of overthought what i should do.
Well, better to learn the hard way and make it correct than to not learn from the mistake i made. And i am trying to get these ideas out of my head.

 

[coffeeaddicted]

This is why I love this section of the forum. So much too learn!

Obviously, lighting is arguably the single hardest skill in Daz rendering to learn. You can get results that "don't look bad" in a few tutorials, but the truly awesome renders were done by people who spent a lot of time learning the skills.

Personally, now that I have almost finished my teaching project, I plan on diving into two subjects that can maybe help me rise above amateur level... Lighting and skin textures on models and making them more photo realistic. I'm still handicapped by my lack of hardware but I am going to start simple, like maybe lighting primitives that have different textures loaded.. that sort of thing.

Trust me. I have so many questions that i can open much more topics.

Its not just the lightning but also for example bathtub water. I managed that but my water looks like dirt water. So i am working on that too. Though it isn't as important.

I think i have to switch to the technique you told me to render characters and scene separately. Otherwise i probably don't get it right. So i will do to day a test and see how it comes out. Because currently i flushed the room with light which looks not anything near real.

My hardware isn't top grate either. My GFX card is better now so that helps. But i haven't upgraded my regular ram yet to match the card.
I am ok with that actually. Though MissFortune talked about G8.1 and more resources. This didn't occur to me really. I am kind of questioning myself if G3 would be actually better. No technically but for the system i have.

I am still learning and i think i get many things wrong. And i can tell that i spend way to much on DAZ than on other things. So hopefully it pays somehow off.

 

[coffeeaddicted]

I think you're over-complicating it, if I'm understanding you right.

A rule of thumb when lighting is that if it sticks out, it's usually not right (unless it's just very good, e.g. PhillyGames.). Lighting needs to make sense to look natural, and for it to look natural, it needs to make sense. Now, lighting, especially in Hollywood, can be very much faux'd. It tends to be that way more than it isn't. But if the lighting isn't natural, then how does it make sense? Because they make it make sense. They often use a technique (the actual term is escaping me currently) where they preface the lighting. They show the viewer where the light is in some way or another (usually in an artistic interlude-esque type of way), and then offer that as the main light source while using logical ambient lighting for accents.

So, basically, show your users a supposed light source, and then adjust it as needed when they can't see it. Though, something like this might be a bit further along than where you're at currently. Lighting-wise, at least.

Spoiler: Examples

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

So, just to clarify, those examples in the spoiler would look nothing like they do here in real life. It'd likely be much darker and the shadows would likely be much sharper. There's a lot of fake lighting happening in those renders. But they feel natural because you've seen the light source - or at least you think you have.

There is a question i have.
What should be the approach for a dev really?
Do you render scene and characters separately or do you do everything in DAZ together?
I am asking because that what some do, i suppose and i am not what the best approach is to get the best result.

Currently i do everything at the as a set. But that causes then issues with lightning for me.
So even if i forget about the realism with the lightning in a scene, i have the problem that if i light a character i will light at the same time the environment which leads to unrealistic outcomes.

Obviously, i have to read more on the light setup and approaches as i lag that knowledge.

Thanks

 

[MissFortune]

What should be the approach for a dev really?

That changes per developer/artist, I'd imagine. Every has their process and workflow, there isn't one that's necessarily better than the other. With enough experience, you'll figure out what works best for you.

Do you render scene and characters separately or do you do everything in DAZ together?
I am asking because that what some do, i suppose and i am not what the best approach is to get the best result.

It depends. Most of the time, depending on how many characters are in the scene, I'll usually just render the whole thing. Characters, lighting, and everything else. But that's because I have the hardware to (sometimes) do it. I'll always usually have one character in the render, if the scene itself calls for it at that moment.

Sometimes I'll have a large environment that uses a lot of VRAM and I can only fit one character in the scene. So, what I'll do is render out the regular scene with only that one character, then I'll add/turn on the other character and spot render (Tool Settings > Spot Render > "New Window") that new character out and add it later in Photoshop while I'm doing postwork. That's just me, though. There's still a ton of validity in the way moose_puck does it, as well. Just depends on the person, their system, and how they choose to do it.

So even if i forget about the realism with the lightning in a scene, i have the problem that if i light a character i will light at the same time the environment which leads to unrealistic outcomes.

It's always good to have an idea of what you want a scene to look like before you start. You don't need to draw anything (though it could be helpful for some), just an idea in your head. Start prepping it. How many unique renders are in this scene? What time of day is it, and thus, what light source are you using? Indoor with lights, or outdoor with the sun, etc.? What happens throughout the scene? Will the lights change within the scene at any point (e.g. Earthquake, brownout, shootout hits a light, etc.)? How many characters need to be lit? Figure out how many and put that number in the best position to light all of them. I realize a lot of that is pretty vague, but it's just something that sort of comes from putting it into practice.

 

[coffeeaddicted]

That changes per developer/artist, I'd imagine. Every has their process and workflow, there isn't one that's necessarily better than the other. With enough experience, you'll figure out what works best for you.

It depends. Most of the time, depending on how many characters are in the scene, I'll usually just render the whole thing. Characters, lighting, and everything else. But that's because I have the hardware to (sometimes) do it. I'll always usually have one character in the render, if the scene itself calls for it at that moment.

Sometimes I'll have a large environment that uses a lot of VRAM and I can only fit one character in the scene. So, what I'll do is render out the regular scene with only that one character, then I'll add/turn on the other character and spot render (Tool Settings > Spot Render > "New Window") that new character out and add it later in Photoshop while I'm doing postwork. That's just me, though. There's still a ton of validity in the way moose_puck does it, as well. Just depends on the person, their system, and how they choose to do it.

Well, my machine is not as powerful for sure but thats ok with me.
I am trying to make sense out of all of it.
My aim is really to get the best light possible to my abilities to make a good scene.
So i will try different approaches.
Though one thing seem apparent to me. That is, it will be easier if you have a set of images that have the same angle so you only render the scene itself once and the the characters individually.
My scene has different angles and seems not consistent. This is of course for a sex scene and not for a regular scene.

My only problem is that i am stuck at the scenes. It's feels like hell. There is always something that isn't right.

It's always good to have an idea of what you want a scene to look like before you start. You don't need to draw anything (though it could be helpful for some), just an idea in your head. Start prepping it. How many unique renders are in this scene? What time of day is it, and thus, what light source are you using? Indoor with lights, or outdoor with the sun, etc.? What happens throughout the scene? Will the lights change within the scene at any point (e.g. Earthquake, brownout, shootout hits a light, etc.)? How many characters need to be lit? Figure out how many and put that number in the best position to light all of them. I realize a lot of that is pretty vague, but it's just something that sort of comes from putting it into practice.

I haven't written it down at the moment but i know what i want in the scene and how it should progress.
But you are absolutely right. You really need a storybook of sorts, so you don't loose the overall story ark that makes your story. I have to wonder if that happens to a lot of devs. Especially if you have a huge story with different characters, this can be really difficult. At least i imagine.
I am at the very beginning and though i know my story, i am stuck on a technical level.

Though i wonder sometimes, what i created if its too dark for the audience. But at the same time, i just want to pursue what i think is the story i want to tell.
I have written down my story in a summary but i need to make that also for scenes.
Where i am still struggling is more now what scene should be shown, which is not needed or plain redundant. Especially sex is something where i like to show different angles and action but not sure if do too much. I am doing animations at all.
Its more a play with dissolve to give an impression. Though maybe dialog is a better way to do it.

 

[coffeeaddicted]

Ok, here is my other try.

So here i first changed the sun. I added the spotlight to the SS node in the environment and rotated the dom.
Then i had changed the light for the room and for the characters. There are two sets like moose_puck suggested.

I used Gimp to merge these two images.
Do they look better? They do certainly emphasis the characters and leave the room as it is.

 

[moose_puck]

Ok, here is my other try.

So here i first changed the sun. I added the spotlight to the SS node in the environment and rotated the dom.
Then i had changed the light for the room and for the characters. There are two sets like moose_puck suggested.

I used Gimp to merge these two images.
Do they look better? They do certainly emphasis the characters and leave the room as it is.

View attachment 1947744

Certainly looks better than the example you posted in the OP. The nice thing about layers is you can also add lots of nice effects on selected portions of the scene. For example, I would personally blur out the background to create a depth of field effect. As it is right now, I find my eyes are drawn to that bright spot between the pumps outside. Depth of field makes your foreground stand out more, and keeps scenes from looking too "busy", IMO.

You can do DoF with Daz through the camera as well, but I just personally find it faster and easier to do it in Post. My methods though come from 20 years using Photoshop for web and graphics design... so with the lack of a decent rendering GPU, I tend to fall back on what I know.

 

[coffeeaddicted]

Certainly looks better than the example you posted in the OP. The nice thing about layers is you can also add lots of nice effects on selected portions of the scene. For example, I would personally blur out the background to create a depth of field effect. As it is right now, I find my eyes are drawn to that bright spot between the pumps outside. Depth of field makes your foreground stand out more, and keeps scenes from looking too "busy", IMO.

You can do DoF with Daz through the camera as well, but I just personally find it faster and easier to do it in Post. My methods though come from 20 years using Photoshop for web and graphics design... so with the lack of a decent rendering GPU, I tend to fall back on what I know.

Hello there....

Ok, i got what you said. So i tried that with Gimp and used the gaus blur. Omg, i am using right now the german language on it.
Another problem is, that i am not that firm with the software. I did some things in it but nothing really serious.
Anyway, this what i got out of it adding the effect. Its just the standard really.

Btw. i debated with myself what wattage i should use. So i used not a more low light approach. 1500 lumination and 500w from the ghost wall. And from abobve 1500/1500.

I kind of like the approach with gimp (in my case). Render time is really cut down by doing it that way.
Characters (like the ones shown) 1 minute. The background around 5 or so.
Though, i am not as good as you probably with the software to make quick changes. Well, i will grow into it somehow.