So many abandoned games before they even start?

CaramelCowboy

Member
Game Developer
Jun 24, 2020
440
2,594
Hello everyone,
I was just browsing the forums and noticed a lot of 'im working on my first game' posts but most of them don't see the light of day (at least I think so. Unless the devs post the game under a new alias)
But for the ones that do get abandoned before even the first release, any ideas on what stops devs from pushing through that first stage of struggle?
Curious because I started working on one too and have decent content ready (I think). But I do want to personally feel like it's 'ready' before I post anything here.

tldr; Have any of you felt like giving up on your project before even one release / soon after one release? if so, why
 

moskis22

Member
Nov 26, 2020
439
370
I think a lot of people think that once they start a project, they get instant masive support, and when that first release is mostly ignored (people follow promising projects with decent content), they lost their motivation
Also the above, making a game takes much more effort than it seems, and usually new devs have unrealistic goals...
 

79flavors

Well-Known Member
Respected User
Jun 14, 2018
1,607
2,256
I think the other thing is that most would-be developers have either zero or one of the required areas of expertise prior to starting a game.

A reasonably good game needs a degree of artwork/rendering, story telling and technical programming experience. Depending on their background, a new developer is likely going to struggle initially with at least two or three of those areas. For the majority, that struggle is going to turn something fun into something painful. Even a talented programmer with an amazing story idea might give up once they realize that they just can't get the hang of Daz3D.

Another consideration is that I would guess most devs don't actually have a full idea about their game before they start considering it. They perhaps have only one to two scenes in mind they want their game to include... then they go about writing a full game around those scenes. Mainly that's a story telling issue though, so good writers will excel and everyone else will falter.

All of which is made worse because most would-be devs are trying to do everything alone. Though in fairness, teaming up with other people is an extra area of expertise. Realistically, working alone is probably best at this stage.

Personally, I think most would-be developers should find a short story they like and re-write it as a 20 to 30 minute long . It doesn't have to be perfect or even average... bad renders, poor lighting, spelling mistakes are all acceptable. Once the project is complete... delete it (no plagiarizing someone else's story). Now they are familiar with what it takes to write even a short game, they can make an informed decision on whether they do really want to write their own game or not.

And yeah... the other big one... People with the very limited capabilities decide that despite barely having the germ of an idea for a game... their game is going to have fully overhauled UI, open world maps, 60FPS animations, a day/night cycle, a quest log and inventory systems - primarily because their favorite games do all of that... and well, how hard could it be? (spoiler alert: very hard).
 
Last edited:

CaramelCowboy

Member
Game Developer
Jun 24, 2020
440
2,594
Thank you for the replies. It's nice to see what others think. I faced the same issue tbh, Got into it with a 'how hard could it be?' mindset which quickly changed to 'Oh...' . But it's pretty enjoyable for me. The coding part is fun because I'm working as a trainee in a software dev company(intermediate level) so Renpy coding isn't too hard. The only thing that frustrates me with Daz is the lighting but i'm starting to get the hang of that too.
I've also never been one for 'click n fuck' games and I've seen a lot of good looking games here but when I get them, there's no real story and that's a turn off for me (just my opinion. not dissing click n fucks)
I feel like 'came for the fap, stayed for the story' games do really well here.

But anyway enough of my ramble. Thanks again and I hope this little thread helps current/future small time devs set their expectations right
 

anne O'nymous

I'm not grumpy, I'm just coded that way.
Modder
Donor
Respected User
Jun 10, 2017
10,964
16,209
Another consideration is that I would guess most devs don't actually have a full idea about their game before they start considering it.
Nor to how many time it will need to do it, or how much it would cost them (because Daz3D is free, but not the assets, nor the computer).

Here's a live demonstration of what you said, perhaps will it make things more understandable, and help readers who would want to start their own game have an idea regarding what await them, while avoiding some traps :


The first time I said, in a discussion, I will star to works on my own game should be in the end of 2018. And I have already shown... nothing more than the fact that I'm still starting to works on my own game.

Well, I lied, I'm not anymore starting to works on it, because I have a story...
Or more precisely, I have enough stories to make games during the whole second 50 years of my life, and probably the half century that will follow it.

The problem is that I did like everyone do, I had an idea, so I started working on it. But an idea is never enough.
An idea is the premise of a story, and some ideas, whatever how good they can looks, just can't be turned into good stories. Therefore, I worked on my first idea, past time thinking about it, developing it, until the moment I hit the wall. It's not that I don't know how to continue this story, just that the story can not continue. Either there's an effective dead end, or it start to run full circle.
It wasn't a problem, other ideas came to my mind while I was trying to make this one works, so I followed another one, then another one, and so on until the moment I finally found (cross his finger) the one that works from start to stop.

People tend to believe that an idea is enough. It's never, and when they hit the wall, they give up and quit. They have no other choice, they talked so much about their game, about their story. It's difficult to admit that you failed and publicly say, "Hey, well, you know, I'm restarting from scratch, with something totally new and different".



I also have game mechanisms and the code that goes with them...
But obviously, the story I'm now following need different game mechanisms than the one I was working on before.

And here, there's a trap. Twice I started to explore a story not because of itself, but because of an idea of game mechanism that crossed my mind. I wanted to exploit it, and needed a story that goes with it.
Readers, do not try this at home. It's a hell. The story should come naturally, if you force it, it will be a disaster.

The second trap is when you finally have a story that works not too bad, but totally fail to find a way to express it into a game format. It's frustrating, oh my fucking god what it can be frustrating.
You've to think about the story and the game mechanism together. Each time you come with a "and at this moment, that will happen", also think how you'll make it happen in the game. And once you've found the answer try to see if you can effectively code it.


And here come the more difficult part, at least for me, Daz3D...

It's also something that will limit your imagination. You need to know what is possible, both in terms of software but also in terms of available assets, before you write your story.
And by "what is possible", I mean for you. Globally speaking, nowadays you can do everything with Daz3D. With a little post works in Photoshop, Lovecraft could have turned his novella and books into kinetic novels... At least if it was good enough with Daz3D to do it, what isn't something that anyone can do.

Regarding Daz3D there's also a question of cost. If you limit to basic renders, a computer that was a top one 5 years ago can be enough. If you want more realism, you'll need a now top computer. If you want to have marvelous effect, expect to put US$ 6.000 into your computer. And if you want to do this often, so need the computer to render fast, go to US$ 10.000.
Or accept that each render you'll need for your game will need more than one hour to be done...
Plus, obviously the cost of the assets, you don't have great quality ones below US$ 15, and consider the double as the average cost.


So, yeah, there's people who start a thread, or release a preview, or even release the first update of their game. They works on it, they talk about it, they even sometimes release more... until the moment they hit the wall and vanish.
They think that doing so will give them the motivation they need. But they forget that it's not just a question of motivation...

Wanting to make your own game is a good thing guys, and girls (we need more girls in the scene). But, even if you lack of motivation, talk about it only when you're fully ready for this. Therefore, only when you've a full story, you know that it can make a game, you know how to code the game, and you know how to make the CGs for it.
Perhaps that you'll abandon before you finally make it, because you discover that it's not something for you. It's nothing to be ashamed about. Making a game isn't for everyone, you can do things that I can't, that most of the game authors can't. Anyway, you'll learn new things during this journey, so it will not be wasted time.

But is you start to effectively talk about it, then later discover that you can't make it, you'll feel really bad. So, avoid it...



And here ends the "Uncle Anne (yeah, I know :D ) tell you his life" episode of today.
 

Rich

Old Fart
Modder
Donor
Respected User
Game Developer
Jun 25, 2017
2,566
7,382
Echoing a lot of what anne O'nymous and 79flavors said. "Rich's tell you his life" goes in similar patterns. Heading into Family, Friends and Strangers, I thought I was in pretty good shape. I have a long background as a programmer, so the technical part wasn't going to be a problem. I had already done a reasonable amount of Daz work. I did the artwork for https://f95zone.to/threads/big-brother-a-shopping-adventure-v0-6-1-derover-rich.5020/, even though I cringe looking back at some of it, plus the programming and some of the artwork for https://f95zone.to/threads/game-legends-v2018-05-trinity.9865/, so I had some experience in terms of what it took to put together a project. I knew that writing was my weak point, but I had a partner that was handling that. So, I figured I was pretty well set.

Even so, it turns out that a project like this is much more life-consuming than I had imagined. Aside from the fact that my partner left the project, leaving me in the saddle as writer as well, the amount of time it takes to produce the renders for the story just boggles the mind. It's not the physical rendering time - I usually leave that running overnight. It's the "where does this take place? How's it blocked? What should the expression be? How do I manage to get that expression? How do I arrange the lighting? Where can I find an asset like that?" So forth and so on. Maybe I put more work on myself than necessary, since I tend to have relatively few script lines per render, but still...

One thing this has taught me is a great deal of respect for movie directors. Take a movie, break it down into sequences, then scenes, then shots, each of which has to be designed before the actors ever even get on the set, well, "Me 'at's off to the Duke."

I'm only days away from my third anniversary of working on FF&S, based on the dates on some of my earliest renders. Since I'm about half-way through my 11th chapter, that's an average of about a release every 3-4 months. With me working on it at least 4 nights a week. And FF&S is a Kinetic Novel, not a game, so I'm not even dealing with the "myriad branches" problem.

So, ya, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that people get overwhelmed, particularly those who might be less prepared than I was.

And, anne O'nymous, I completely get the whole "the story takes itself into a corner" problem. That's been my biggest problem script-wise. "What comes next?" "What would that character do?" "Yeah, but if he does that, the story's over. So what does he do instead?" etc., etc. LOL
 

Winterfire

Forum Fanatic
Respected User
Game Developer
Sep 27, 2018
5,500
8,035
I have seen quite many "I am going to make a game!" posts on discord as well, and overall the most common reason is "I want to get rich!". I think you can guess the rest :LUL:
 

GNVE

Active Member
Jul 20, 2018
724
1,185
well something like 80% of people want to write a book. Some have even written a chapter or two. Number of people who actually end up finishing that book? 1% or so? and from that 1% only a few lucky ones actually become a published author let alone a successful author. I think most people like the (romanticised) idea of being creative rather than actually putting in the work to be creative.

As many have pointed out VN's/games in general are quite difficult to make since they require a combination of skills (programming, writing, art etc) I'm not saying writing a book is easy by comparison it is equally difficult but writing a book is a single skill you have to master while making a game means you have to muddle is various skill (preferably master them but...)

Something most people get wrong is that they want to go all out. They want an open world, sandbox, full 3d, buzzword, buzzword, buzzword, buzzword game. without coding, writing or art skills. I.e. they think to big. One should start small. target one or two scenes 10 - 30 minutes of playtime. Make loads of mistakes so you won't make them in your magnum opus. Some mistakes mean a game is doomed from the start. It would be a shame if you found out 2 years into the project.

But the biggest thing that derails projects I think is life. Things happen that mean you have to put work on the game on hold sometimes indefinitely. I mean I'm years into a project and still only just starting. It would have been great if I could have put more time into it but I have to pay bills, have other hobbies, need to see friends and family etc.
 

Hagatagar

Well-Known Member
Oct 11, 2019
1,142
3,274
Therefore, I worked on my first idea, past time thinking about it, developing it, until the moment I hit the wall. It's not that I don't know how to continue this story, just that the story can not continue. Either there's an effective dead end, or it start to run full circle.
And, anne O'nymous, I completely get the whole "the story takes itself into a corner" problem. That's been my biggest problem script-wise. "What comes next?" "What would that character do?" "Yeah, but if he does that, the story's over. So what does he do instead?" etc., etc. LOL
This is one of the things that personally baffles me a bit.
I mean, I completely understand wanting to keep a project alive, especially if it's making money (which you might actually need for a living) and having dedicated fans who like it and you don't want to let them down.

But don't you want to have a finished, completed story? With an intriguing beginning, an exciting middle, and a satisfying end?
Sometimes I feel like people are scared of ending a story, even when it has reached a (good) natural ending point. :unsure:


On a side note, I believe one should always have a planned ending (doesn't need to be fully fleshed out) and work towards it. So even if the story is dragged out, there will still be a fitting ending which can be adjusted depending on additional story development.
 

Winterfire

Forum Fanatic
Respected User
Game Developer
Sep 27, 2018
5,500
8,035
This is one of the things that personally baffles me a bit.
I mean, I completely understand wanting to keep a project alive, especially if it's making money (which you might actually need for a living) and having dedicated fans who like it and you don't want to let them down.

But don't you want to have a finished, completed story? With an intriguing beginning, an exciting middle, and a satisfying end?
Sometimes I feel like people are scared of ending a story, even when it has reached a (good) natural ending point. :unsure:


On a side note, I believe one should always have a planned ending (doesn't need to be fully fleshed out) and work towards it. So even if the story is dragged out, there will still be a fitting ending which can be adjusted depending on additional story development.
Planned beginning and ending is a must for me.
Well, planned beginning is a bit of an obvious thing ofc x) However, having two distinct points (Beginning and Ending) allows you to write the whole journey inbetween with a clear goal in mind, and perhaps throw in a few subtle detaisl for fun.
 

GNVE

Active Member
Jul 20, 2018
724
1,185
Well I was planning to release a tech demo in a limited fashion once I finished the coding so people have a chance to break things I wasn't able to. So haphazardly added content that constitutes the 'game' so people can see if it works as intended or not.
 

anne O'nymous

I'm not grumpy, I'm just coded that way.
Modder
Donor
Respected User
Jun 10, 2017
10,964
16,209
But don't you want to have a finished, completed story? With an intriguing beginning, an exciting middle, and a satisfying end?
Sometimes I feel like people are scared of ending a story, even when it has reached a (good) natural ending point. :unsure:
I would even say that you need to have those three parts. And the problem is that too many persons start their game while they only have the beginning. They expect to find the middle and the end when the time will come, but... well, as I said, it don't happen for all stories.


On a side note, I believe one should always have a planned ending (doesn't need to be fully fleshed out) and work towards it.
If you achieve to find the different posts I wrote, mostly on the "general" section here, regarding "how to write a story", ideally you need to have your whole story before you start effectively releasing something.

Rich talked about movie directors, and yeah, it's the same for game directors. You should have something near to a storyboard before the first release hit the public ; that's why personally I'm still "working on" my game. For an indie game, you don't necessarily need the whole storyboard, but you should have at least all the key points of the story. What obviously imply how it will end.
 

Hagatagar

Well-Known Member
Oct 11, 2019
1,142
3,274
Well I was planning to release a tech demo in a limited fashion once I finished the coding so people have a chance to break things I wasn't able to. So haphazardly added content that constitutes the 'game' so people can see if it works as intended or not.
Having a tech demo without any real content is perfectly fine, as long as people know that it's just a tech demo. Otherwise they whine or get angry.

If you achieve to find the different posts I wrote, mostly on the "general" section here, regarding "how to write a story", ideally you need to have your whole story before you start effectively releasing something.
Actually, I already read that some time ago. ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: GNVE

Rich

Old Fart
Modder
Donor
Respected User
Game Developer
Jun 25, 2017
2,566
7,382
I mean, I completely understand wanting to keep a project alive, especially if it's making money (which you might actually need for a living) and having dedicated fans who like it and you don't want to let them down.
Lesson number 1, 2, 3 and 73: If you need money to live on, an adult game is not the way to go. In the long run, you'll make more money per hour invested working at McDonalds. Yes, there are a few - very few - developers who have struck it rich doing this. But there are people who've won the lottery, too. Betting on that is not a sound financial strategy.

Personally, I'm going to complete FF&S. I committed to it (albeit in perhaps a different form) from the beginning, and I'm determined to see it through. And, yes, part of the reason is that I have a corps of fans - not a big one, it's a niche - but a solid corps that I don't want to abandon. They may not like or agree with my choices as things go along, but I'm the kind of person who really doesn't like to abandon something once I've committed it.

You could argue that it has to do with money - not what I've received, but what the others have contributed. They've shelled out hard cash - even if it's only $1/month - to support me, so they're going to get supported. Granted, that's me. That's not everybody else. But that's me.

So there!

I would even say that you need to have those three parts. And the problem is that too many persons start their game while they only have the beginning. They expect to find the middle and the end when the time will come, but... well, as I said, it don't happen for all stories.
Ya, truly. That's part of the challenge I've found myself in. JohnCBB might have had the middle and end blocked out, but I certainly haven't, so I've been playing a bit of "Blind Man's Bluff" as I've gone along. We talked enough about the general arc that I think I'm remaining within the bounds of what he envisioned. Not that that's crucial to me, but it's helpful when I'm facing the next "and what now" moment.

Rich talked about movie directors, and yeah, it's the same for game directors. You should have something near to a storyboard before the first release hit the public ; that's why personally I'm still "working on" my game. For an indie game, you don't necessarily need the whole storyboard, but you should have at least all the key points of the story. What obviously imply how it will end.
Whether you need to have the full storyboard or not I won't speak to. But, IMHO, you at least need to have the high-level plot worked out end to end. How your MC is going to get into trouble, and how he or she is going to get out of it, and the key milestones that are going to be passed as he/she goes along.
 

Rich

Old Fart
Modder
Donor
Respected User
Game Developer
Jun 25, 2017
2,566
7,382
Oh, side note that I forgot to mention. anne O'nymous's estimates for hardware costs are a bit on the high side, at least if you're in the US. You can actually get a pretty hot machine, complete with an RTX 3090, for something like $4k if you know where to look.

Even if you max the thing out, it's still about $5K.

The trick is that Dell gets proper pricing for the GPU's. They don't pay the scalper-type prices that everybody else does.

Just saying...
 

anne O'nymous

I'm not grumpy, I'm just coded that way.
Modder
Donor
Respected User
Jun 10, 2017
10,964
16,209
Whether you need to have the full storyboard or not I won't speak to. But, IMHO, you at least need to have the high-level plot worked out end to end. How your MC is going to get into trouble, and how he or she is going to get out of it, and the key milestones that are going to be passed as he/she goes along.
Ideally a full one would be good, but I fully understand that a moment come where you are just tired of all this theoretical works. You want to also give life to your game, and for this you need do to more than working on its story.
But as you said, the key points (or milestones that works even better), are mandatory. You don't necessarily need to know everything that will happen, but all the important moments, the one that really make the story advance, and possibly change something in the characters life or mind. They are the milestones of your story, they show you the path it have to follow, and therefore guide you through your own journey.


Oh, side note that I forgot to mention. anne O'nymous's estimates for hardware costs are a bit on the high side, at least if you're in the US.
It was a guess more than an effective price. I took the price here, and (wildly) converted in dollars. There's countries, even in Europe, where it's would cost even more.
Oh, since I talk about this, if you think about lowering the price by buying hardware online from another country, always check the postal fees first. I once witnessed at the post office an angry guy who had to send back a defective piece to China, for an exchange. The postal fees were higher that the price of the piece here...
 
Jul 22, 2019
247
369
If you need money to live on, an adult game is not the way to go. In the long run, you'll make more money per hour invested working at McDonalds.
I wouldn't say that. This highly HIGHLY depends on where you live: the cost of living, and the exchange rates. Like for example where I'm from, making 300-400 bucks a month is actually equivalent to a very decently paying job, and you can live quite comfortably. Anything 500 and up is just extravagant lol. Purely because the cost of living is I think one of the lowest in the world, and price of USD is through the roof.

So I'd argue, most of what these devs make here through Patreon, is very very decent in most parts of the world.