Starting a game. But looking for a bit of advice...

[bdaywans]

I've been working on a few story ideas and I think i finally want to start one. i decided to go for one that has the least 'plot' and more play but I'm looking to include a game within a game. Eventually I want to make it more challenging but right now all i want is something as basic as a 'GuitarHero'-esque challenge. I've selected Renpy as I think that'd be best for the story and animation I want to eventually add, but does anyone know if you can include things like that in a Renpy game or would I need a different engine. I'd be happy to start with something less ambitious and move to a different engine, but I just need a game that I can make progressively challenging vs a randomizer like Rock paper Scissors.

Secondly, I don't consider myself a great artist but I can draw. But I'm curious, do the majority of prefer 3d modeled art or 2d. I've seen both good and bad in both and I'd rather do 2D but I'm just curious about how the community feels about the 2.

 

[Patan]

I've been working on a few story ideas and I think i finally want to start one. i decided to go for one that has the least 'plot' and more play but I'm looking to include a game within a game. Eventually I want to make it more challenging but right now all i want is something as basic as a 'GuitarHero'-esque challenge. I've selected Renpy as I think that'd be best for the story and animation I want to eventually add, but does anyone know if you can include things like that in a Renpy game or would I need a different engine. I'd be happy to start with something less ambitious and move to a different engine, but I just need a game that I can make progressively challenging vs a randomizer like Rock paper Scissors.

Secondly, I don't consider myself a great artist but I can draw. But I'm curious, do the majority of prefer 3d modeled art or 2d. I've seen both good and bad in both and I'd rather do 2D but I'm just curious about how the community feels about the 2.

I don't have good knowledge when it comes to Ren'Py or other engines but I saw some games that had Quick Time Event type of stuff in it that uses Ren'Py. And most people in here definitely prefers that engine since as a player its easier to navigate and enjoy the game. About art it really depends on your style I guess, I prefer a good 2D over a 3D stuff but the reason is that to me there is not many of 2D style games that are good with few exceptions. Also %90 of devs makes 3D so it would be a different taste.

 

[Rich]

If you go to the Ren'py forums, there are a number of "minigames" that have been posted there. You might find one of those useful.

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[caLTD]

If you had unique style with 2d go with it. 3d are for non artisans. We pose, computer draws

 

[Nottravis]

Also, and I know this sounds obvious but I really messed up on this, try to have a firm idea of what will be in your game from the start. I had a broad idea and then just kept adding and adding and adding stuff....until it collapsed under it's own weight and started to be a bit silly - especially with mini-games.

After two months I ended up with what was a bit of a hot mess and have had to start again - with some discipline this time tho!

 

[cbdaciolo]

Also, and I know this sounds obvious but I really messed up on this, try to have a firm idea of what will be in your game from the start. I had a broad idea and then just kept adding and adding and adding stuff....until it collapsed under it's own weight and started to be a bit silly - especially with mini-games.

After two months I ended up with what was a bit of a hot mess and have had to start again - with some discipline this time tho!

Same here. Is better focus on a small thing than trying to conquer the world and failing.

 

[HiEv]

Also, and I know this sounds obvious but I really messed up on this, try to have a firm idea of what will be in your game from the start. I had a broad idea and then just kept adding and adding and adding stuff....until it collapsed under it's own weight and started to be a bit silly - especially with mini-games.

After two months I ended up with what was a bit of a hot mess and have had to start again - with some discipline this time tho!

I helps if you have a good idea both how it starts and all of the different ways it can end, and then a general idea of how to get from the start to the different ends.

Far too many people come up with an idea, keep adding to it, write themselves into a corner, and then give up on the game because they have no idea where to go from there. Considering that most English language indie games come out in pieces, it's very easy to think you can get away without figuring out an ending until later on. However, if you pay attention, it's becomes more and more obvious that this is an approach which usually fails.

I'd recommend you have these things:

1. Start: Have a strong start to the game, with a good hook that draws players in.
2. Endings: Know in advance most of the different ways your game will end.
3. Middle: Have a general idea of how the plot will advance from the beginning to those ends.
4. Interesting: Make sure that the middle isn't repetitive, grindy, or just generally boring.
5. Engine: Pick a game engine that actually suits the kind of game that you're making.
6. Simple: Don't throw in confusing or too numerous game mechanics, remove any excess, keep it simple.
7. Difficulty: Make sure the game isn't too difficult for people who haven't played it before.
   
8. Quality: Check your spelling, grammar, capitalization, and punctuation, and test your code.
   
9. Release: Have a strong foundation of code and content for your game before your first release.
10. Feedback: Listen to feedback from people and know when to adapt and what would compromise your vision.

Planning these things out in advance will save you a lot of time in the long run and will make a better game too.

 

[minoan55]

Famously, J.K. Rowling knew exactly how the last book would end before starting the first H.P. book.
Before turning on your computer, write down your story, structure it and flesh-out your characters - that way you can identify potential problems way before they appear.

If you are interested in story writing, November is National Novel Writing Month, abbreviated tp "nanowrimo". Google it there is a huge range of stuff online to help encourage people to write stories, and many famous authors will be running online workshops to help aspiring writers.

 

[Nottravis]

I helps if you have a good idea both how it starts and all of the different ways it can end, and then a general idea of how to get from the start to the different ends.

Far too many people come up with an idea, keep adding to it, write themselves into a corner, and then give up on the game because they have no idea where to go from there. Considering that most English language indie games come out in pieces, it's very easy to think you can get away without figuring out an ending until later on. However, if you pay attention, it's becomes more and more obvious that this is an approach which usually fails.

I'd recommend you have these things:

1. Start: Have a strong start to the game, with a good hook that draws players in.
2. Endings: Know in advance most of the different ways your game will end.
3. Middle: Have a general idea of how the plot will advance from the beginning to those ends.
4. Interesting: Make sure that the middle isn't repetitive, grindy, or just generally boring.
5. Engine: Pick a game engine that actually suits the kind of game that you're making.
6. Simple: Don't throw in confusing or too numerous game mechanics, remove any excess, keep it simple.
7. Difficulty: Make sure the game isn't too difficult for people who haven't played it before.
   
8. Quality: Check your spelling, grammar, capitalization, and punctuation, and test your code.
   
9. Release: Have a strong foundation of code and content for your game before your first release.
10. Feedback: Listen to feedback from people and know when to adapt and what would compromise your vision.

Planning these things out in advance will save you a lot of time in the long run and will make a better game too.

Excellent advice. Especially point six which has been the hardest out of all of these for me to balance and I feel is the easiest trap to fall into. Just because something can be done/coded - doesn't mean it should be!

 

[HiEv]

Excellent advice. Especially point six which has been the hardest out of all of these for me to balance and I feel is the easiest trap to fall into. Just because something can be done/coded - doesn't mean it should be!

Thanks. I suppose that brings up one more point, which I see you've followed in your developer's blog: Don't be afraid to kill your darlings.
It's easy to become attached to certain code, art, writing, etc. because you like it, it holds nostalgic feelings, and/or you've invested a lot of time in it. However, if it doesn't really add anything to the game or, worse yet, actually detracts from it, then you need to get over that feeling and get rid of it if you want to make a better game.
I've seen people argue until they were blue in the face defending something in their game that everyone else said was naive and distractingly implausible. They wouldn't back down no matter how much it hurt their game, because they couldn't see past their love for that detail.
I'm not saying that there aren't circumstances where you should hold true to your vision, but that's more about not watering down your game by trying to please everyone. You shouldn't use that as an excuse to ignore feedback about problems with your game.

 

[bdaywans]

@HiEv, @Nottravis
Thanks for the feedback everyone, this does help a lot. I have, to by quite honest, 4 game concepts I want to build but to everyone's point I don't want to get too ambitious before I know what I'm doing. I'm wanting to start with the simplest story wise - which I suppose I'd have to compare to something like Breeding Season or Strumpets where I'm going more for minigame action/visual payoff/power-ups rather than major story arcs. I do have story and characters planned but I figured for the first game something like that may be more fun than jumping head first into a larger story line

Not that I have some groundbreaking concept but to keep it simple I have an idea for a MC that is in a competition. I could do something as basic as Rock Paper Scissors but my thought was that as they game progresses as you challenge new opponents you have to either get better or buy power-ups to give you an advantage. If it takes off then with each update you'd get more competitors and new story options. The later part would be easy in Renpy, its just that game part.

Having said that, and since several of you have developed games, does this sound like an ill-advised idea for a first time dev? Maybe stick to something more basic and linear?

(EDIT-OPINION QUESTION; This may be something for the Renpy forum referenced earlier but perhaps drop the game portion entirely as something 'off camera' and just use stats to predetermine the outcome. Or would that feel like a cop-out?)

 

[Nottravis]

@HiEv, @Nottravis
Thanks for the feedback everyone, this does help a lot. I have, to by quite honest, 4 game concepts I want to build but to everyone's point I don't want to get too ambitious before I know what I'm doing. I'm wanting to start with the simplest story wise - which I suppose I'd have to compare to something like Breeding Season or Strumpets where I'm going more for minigame action/visual payoff/power-ups rather than major story arcs. I do have story and characters planned but I figured for the first game something like that may be more fun than jumping head first into a larger story line

Not that I have some groundbreaking concept but to keep it simple I have an idea for a MC that is in a competition. I could do something as basic as Rock Paper Scissors but my thought was that as they game progresses as you challenge new opponents you have to either get better or buy power-ups to give you an advantage. If it takes off then with each update you'd get more competitors and new story options. The later part would be easy in Renpy, its just that game part.

Having said that, and since several of you have developed games, does this sound like an ill-advised idea for a first time dev? Maybe stick to something more basic and linear?

(EDIT-OPINION QUESTION; This may be something for the Renpy forum referenced earlier but perhaps drop the game portion entirely as something 'off camera' and just use stats to predetermine the outcome. Or would that feel like a cop-out?)

You're welcome!

On the Rock Paper Scissors idea - absolutely.

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So aye, I'd support that concept!

But to answer your question, I don't think what you'e outlined is a bad idea. But my advice, based on what I've learned after the past few months, would be to do something simple and linear - and not even for release. The amount of things you'll learn putting something together for yourself as practice is worth it's weight in gold. But, you should take what I say with a large pinch of salt - I'm only a few steps ahead of you really so listen to me at your peril! But best of luck anyway

 

[HiEv]

I have, to by quite honest, 4 game concepts I want to build but to everyone's point I don't want to get too ambitious before I know what I'm doing. I'm wanting to start with the simplest story wise

I'm in a similar position. I had three game ideas originally, so I picked the simplest one where some of the tools I built for that game could be used and expanded upon in the second game, plus different tools would need to be created. Once that second game is done, the third game would combine all of the elements of both of the previous games. I've since come up with a fourth idea, which is actually even simpler, so my "first" game will probably end up becoming my second game, and this new idea will likely be the main prototype for showing off/testing the tools I've been building. (It also fits in with an upcoming contest, so that will force me to get it done within the next 6-7 months to be ready for that contest's submission date.)

Not that I have some groundbreaking concept but to keep it simple I have an idea for a MC that is in a competition. I could do something as basic as Rock Paper Scissors but my thought was that as they game progresses as you challenge new opponents you have to either get better or buy power-ups to give you an advantage. (...)

Having said that, and since several of you have developed games, does this sound like an ill-advised idea for a first time dev? Maybe stick to something more basic and linear?

As far as the mini-game goes, it depends on how fun you make it. Does the mini-game change as you progress to keep it interesting? Do you get rewards for each success (like each loss means losing an article of clothing) and keep the failures from being too punishing? Really it's about whether you keep it interesting, simple, and not too difficult. "

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" would be a good model for that. In it there's a match-3 mini-game, which represents how well you do on the date, and you can level up traits so that different colors get higher scores, and there are items that you can earn which affect the board, etc... So it's a fun, simple mini-game, that keeps changing so it doesn't get too grindy.

If your mini-game is just the same thing over and over, especially if you make it too difficult or too easy, then it becomes a chore, instead of being fun.

So, you're really making two games, the main game and the mini-game, and if either one of them is bad, then the whole ship sinks. It's a tricky tightrope to walk.

Whatever you decide to do, before you start making it, make sure you take a step back and ask yourself, "Would *I* enjoy playing that kind of game?" If the answer isn't "Yes!!!" then you'll need to decide if your idea is worth fixing or if it's time to scrap it and go back to the drawing board. Ditching an idea can be painful, but far less painful than wasting months of work on a mediocre or bad game.

(EDIT-OPINION QUESTION; This may be something for the Renpy forum referenced earlier but perhaps drop the game portion entirely as something 'off camera' and just use stats to predetermine the outcome. Or would that feel like a cop-out?)

Imagine a game where it's built up that your character is playing in some championship, where everything is on the line, and then it cuts out all of the scenes where they actually play in that championship. What would your reaction to that be?

I think you can answer that one for yourself.

 

[bdaywans]

...(It also fits in with an upcoming contest, so that will force me to get it done within the next 6-7 months to be ready for that contest's submission date.)...

... Really it's about whether you keep it interesting, simple, and not too difficult. "

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" ... If your mini-game is just the same thing over and over, especially if you make it too difficult or too easy, then it becomes a chore, instead of being fun.

...

Imagine a game where it's built up that your character is playing in some championship, where everything is on the line, and then it cuts out all of the scenes where they actually play in that championship. What would your reaction to that be?

I think you can answer that one for yourself.

So a few things...

First - thanks. And where do you find competitions like that? Not that I would have a chance at any of them but curious where one can find those?

Actually HuniePop was one of the first things that came to mind and would ideally be what I'd want to do but I have NO idea how to program that. I wouldn't want it to be too boring tedious, but you kind of hit the nail on the head... the idea would be that as you play, rounds you win, the competitor loses clothing (or more) and when you lose, the same so I was almost thinking a mini round of HuniePop or a brief Guitar Hero style play like the I recently saw in Dark Alley Elf as I'd want to be able to hit 3-5 rounds per competitor. Buying upgrades would give you extra clothes or 'defenses' or lower your competitors ability (remove clothes, insert an egg, body writing etc) that you get to see but ultimately just lower the difficulty level of your round.

And you're right, it would be tacky to have all this build up for an off screen game, but if I did that I'd add a few 'cut scenes' of the playing as my goal there would be showing what the players win or lose with each round. But the more I think of it, it still would take away from it

 

[HiEv]

First - thanks. And where do you find competitions like that? Not that I would have a chance at any of them but curious where one can find those?

You can find tons of "jams" (as they're called) on the "

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" page. (You'll probably need to CTRL+F search for the "lewd" jams using if you're planning on submitting adult content.)

The one I'm talking about is the next

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contest (the current "

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" is being voted on now). The next contest there is going to be "Escape" themed (see

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), though since it's on TFGamesSite, the game willl also need some TF (transformation) content as well.

Actually HuniePop was one of the first things that came to mind and would ideally be what I'd want to do but I have NO idea how to program that. I wouldn't want it to be too boring tedious, but you kind of hit the nail on the head... the idea would be that as you play, rounds you win, the competitor loses clothing (or more) and when you lose, the same so I was almost thinking a mini round of HuniePop or a brief Guitar Hero style play like the I recently saw in Dark Alley Elf as I'd want to be able to hit 3-5 rounds per competitor. Buying upgrades would give you extra clothes or 'defenses' or lower your competitors ability (remove clothes, insert an egg, body writing etc) that you get to see but ultimately just lower the difficulty level of your round.

Well, if that's what you want to do, you'd need to figure out how to program something like that. If you can't program something fun like that now, you're either going to have to learn how to do it or scrap the idea and come up with something else.

Good luck!