Steam now requires ages verification for adult games.

[morphnet]

I understand where you are coming from, but the end result is internet buying would need to be terminated.

That's exaggerated way beyond the point. Most online purchases are NOT abused. From groceries to clothes to movie tickets to ride sharing to vacations etc. etc. etc. they are also NOT illegal and almost all do NOT require BY LAW some sort of identification. Online purchasing will be just fine.

Plus "in person" isn't any better...

 

[MissCougar]

That's exaggerated way beyond the point. Most online purchases are NOT abused. From groceries to clothes to movie tickets to ride sharing to vacations etc. etc. etc. they are also NOT illegal and almost all do NOT require BY LAW some sort of identification. Online purchasing will be just fine.

Plus "in person" isn't any better...

No, I don't believe it is. And the video you posted reinforces my point.

I indicate in person, government issued ID checks would need to be done. Had that happened, your video would not be made.

You either have zero trust or you do not.

Anything anyone does online can be anyone, even on an authorized account. People can stay logged into stuff, kids can get credit cards or their parents' ID, and nothing is able to be factually determined to be legitimate. Your list of "likely" guarantees may go down to real people twitch streams where they are on camera, and videos of the actual validated person doing their actions. But I could still go on video and claim to be Sally Thomas and just because I am on video does not make me Sally Thomas. All that would need validation and confirmation.

This is a slippery slope and once you start going zero trust it's going to go into a lot of things far beyond what you wanted. This is how policies and requirements go.

 

[morphnet]

No, I don't believe it is. And the video you posted reinforces my point.

I indicate in person, government issued ID checks would need to be done. Had that happened, your video would not be made.

Adult or child, owning a console is NOT against the law. If he had tried to buy a blowup doll he would've been ID checked.

You either have zero trust or you do not.

That's not how it works, there are different levels and always have been. Most purchases online are NOT +18 only, most purchases online are NOT illegal or illegal to certain groups / age ranges.

You need to stop lumping everything together as if it's all the same thing.

But I could still go on video and claim to be Sally Thomas and just because I am on video does not make me Sally Thomas. All that would need validation and confirmation.

They don't care if you are sally thomas, they care if you are OVER 18 or 21 depending on the restrictions. AGE verification NOT IDENTITY verification. Which is why CC and e-mail are NOT a secure method. Apart from "using" parents / other peoples cards, it is also easy and cheap to buy active e-mail addresses.

But the bottom line is online purchases are safe and you guys need to separate normal purchases / content and adult purchases / content. So no, making sure someone is 18+ for adult content will NOT have the end result of internet buying being terminated.

 

[MissCougar]

Adult or child, owning a console is NOT against the law. If he had tried to buy a blowup doll he would've been ID checked.



That's not how it works, there are different levels and always have been. Most purchases online are NOT +18 only, most purchases online are NOT illegal or illegal to certain groups / age ranges.

You need to stop lumping everything together as if it's all the same thing.



They don't care if you are sally thomas, they care if you are OVER 18 or 21 depending on the restrictions. AGE verification NOT IDENTITY verification. Which is why CC and e-mail are NOT a secure method. Apart from "using" parents / other peoples cards, it is also easy and cheap to buy active e-mail addresses.

But the bottom line is online purchases are safe and you guys need to separate normal purchases / content and adult purchases / content. So no, making sure someone is 18+ for adult content will NOT have the end result of internet buying being terminated.

Maybe I am missing your point, but I was mostly referring to what Count Morado was indicating.

I do apologize if I am misunderstanding anything.

I don't believe you can have age verification without ID verification. People using Death Stranding as verification has already proven that to be a big failure. Norman Reedus has probably been ID'd to go on way too many adult sites by now, and that is kind of funny. He's pretty the most porn addicted man in the world at this point.

But to my point about zero trust, I think people will find that the needle of what is considered adult content is going to move swiftly once a standard is set. It will additionally not be able to be about moral opinion. Some form standard will be required.

I also see this returning to any M or higher rated game. You need to ID yourself to purchase it. And then we circle back to the "How do we effectively ID" argument, and then we return to the in person with government issued ID and a zero trust society.

Im not entirely sure how you can start slicing this pie apart without ultimately getting to the point where online purchases have to stop, except maybe for food or needed items.

My point is that verification is a very slippery slope and once people no longer trust each other it will go into areas you didn't think it would very very quickly, because that is how society operates. Regulations will take over for moral opinions and those regulations will have requirements that need to be evaluated against every product.

If you somehow believe this will be a situation that only applies to porny games, I have some lakefront property on the moon to sell you.

Im also unsure how you are referring to ilegal content. I would assume that my local crack dealer is not going to accept mastercard for my purchase and that MC would try to ensure that is blocked, regardless of ID verification.

 

[Count Morado]

Umm, you say yourself that your ADULT children have access to your email when you cark it. Even so, they may find things in there that make them reassess their views of ol' Pops Morado

So no, minors do not have access, and yes, a 20 year old email account is about the best proof of age that you're going to get. Everything has holes, even us.

There is nothing in my email that my adult children would be surprised about. Nothing.

If you think that there isn't a significant number of adolescents and teens who know their parents' personal email address and login credentials - you don't know a lot of people. There are far too many "adults" who wouldn't be able to find their way out of a paper bag if it involved technology. The parents today are little to no different to the parents of the 1980s who had to have their kids program the clocks on their VCRs. Who do you think is the IT "specialist" in most households? The teens and tweens.

So yes .... access is pretty common. And it goes along with the following reply -- because a majority of parents give access to use credit cards to their children, having access to the parent's email is beneficial when there are verifications, statuses, etc of those purchases.

Yeah,as how many kids use their parents' cards for stuff? I mean lots?

I guess the "UK" addresses in my VPN are quite useless now

Do you have children? Because yes -

You must be registered to see the links

for reasonable purchases

Whether their child needs a card number to make an in-app purchase or a physical card to shop at the mall, 59% of parents say they’ve allowed them to use their credit or debit card. Dads are more willing to hand over plastic power to kids than moms — 64% versus 54%.

--------------------

So effectively this amounts to a zero trust situation.

All online purchases should be stopped because we can't valid the person hitting "buy now" is that person, and all purchases must be accompanied by some sort of network connected ID scan to validate government issued ID and no other ID is allowed.

Amazon would need to stop, and so on and so on. Adult orders aren't any worse than someone spending money against the money holders wishes and will cause them financial harm and result in likely refund no more than a Steam buy as an adult or non-adult game.

The only allowed purchase would be in-person purchases following ID validation and approval.

I understand where you are coming from, but the end result is internet buying would need to be terminated.

My posts have not said or implied to "throw the baby out with the bathwater." If you read them that way - that's your bias.

My reply to you was a tongue-in-cheek joke - but was, yes, obviously stating a very obvious weakness.

We are talking about age-limited consumption - ONLY - not general consumption. Let's not change the subject.

As I have stated - I don't think credit cards or email account age are ways to prove age being 18+ for adult purchases. Although I go against the liberal justices on SCOTUS - I do believe, unlike them, that proving age is necessary for accessing adult content legally. I actually side with conversative states and conservative SCOTUS justices in that people do need ID'd. I just do not think this way is the way to do it.

In the US (and in many other countries):
We have to show ID to buy alcohol in brick-and-mortar stores.
We have to show ID to buy nicotine in brick-and-mortar stores.
We have to show ID to buy adult items, such as pornography, in brick-and-mortar stores.
We should also show ID to do the same online.

This thread was started by a person (and populated by people) who appear to believe that proving age is censorship. While it is limiting consumption - it is limiting it to people who can show they are of age to consume such content --- just like they would have to do in a brick-and-mortar store. I agree that proving age is necessary - I just don't think credit cards and email account age are the way to do so.

In the US, many states have gone to a system for "Mobile ID" - while children (and others) could still abuse it - using the "Mobile ID" with face recognition would be a viable (though costly) alternative.

Do I think credit card is a decent stop-gap? For now it can be. But a better solution needs to be considered.

 

[MissCougar]

My posts have not said or implied to "throw the baby out with the bathwater." If you read them that way - that's your bias.

My reply to you was a tongue-in-cheek joke - but was, yes, obviously stating a very obvious weakness.

We are talking about age-limited consumption - ONLY - not general consumption. Let's not change the subject.

As I have stated - I don't think credit cards or email account age are ways to prove age being 18+ for adult purchases. Although I go against the liberal justices on SCOTUS - I do believe, unlike them, that proving age is necessary for accessing adult content legally. I actually side with conversative states and conservative SCOTUS justices in that people do need ID'd. I just doing think this way is the way to do it.

In the US (and in many other countries):
We have to show ID to buy alcohol in brick-and-mortar stores.
We have to show ID to buy nicotine in brick-and-mortar stores.
We have to show ID to buy adult items, such as pornography, in brick-and-mortar stores.
We should also show ID to do the same online.

This thread was started by a person (and populated by people) who appear to believe that proving age is censorship. While it is limiting consumption - it is limiting it to people who can show they are of age to consume such content --- just like they would have to do in a brick-and-mortar store. I agree that proving age is necessary - I just don't think credit cards and email account age are the way to do so.

In the US, many states have gone to a system for "Mobile ID" - while children (and others) could still abuse it - using the "Mobile ID" with face recognition would be a viable (though costly) alternative.

Do I think credit card is a decent stop-gap? For now it can be. But a better solution needs to be considered.

I think we are in agreement that ID has to happen, it's just a matter of how and to what extent.

The only way to prove you are who you say you are is some sort of in person ID check, exactly what happens at physical locations.

How do you bring that to the internet? I don't know yet, but what has been rolled out so far has been abused already. No system will ever be perfect though and it is just the best it can be, but it has to be robust enough to stop the casual/mid-level threats. If it can't even do that effectively it's not a good solution.

I think where people are getting stuck is its use for only adult content. And to that point, I see it as a moral slider that will go all over the place and have much greater impact and deployment than people initially think or want. I'm not crying censorship, since I believe ultimately the internet is quickly moving to being a non-anonymous forum holistically, I'm just indicating how to achieve the requested goal. I don't think it can be effectively achieved online alone, there needs to be some offline in-person component and then that component somehow needs to be intrinsically tied to your person and only your person and cannot be transferred or used by another person.

It's a massively complex undertaking, and it may end with some sort of digital fingerprint tied to your biometrics somehow.

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

How do you bring that to the internet?

You don't, simple as.

 

[Count Morado]

I think where people are getting stuck is its use for only adult content. And to that point, I see it as a moral slider that will go all over the place and have much greater impact and deployment than people initially think or want.

Yup. But we haven't seen the the same moral slider in brick-and-mortar usage over the decades. Primarily used to prove age (and ID for using checks or credit cards, when necessary). But, that slipper slope argument will always be there.

People who think they are simply using this as a way to censor stuff... they wouldn't even need to do that --- Steam could simply stop selling adult content if they wanted to. It wouldn't hurt their bottom line dramatically. Adult content isn't making or breaking their budget. It's not a strong argument - but it feeds the paranoia and conspiracy synapses in an overactive amygdala for certain people.

and it may end with some sort of digital fingerprint tied to your biometrics somehow.

This I would agree with you on.

My "Mobile ID" app can be logged in with either a pin or fingerprint. I think somehow integrating that app with biometrics to use websites which are following the law for age-verification is - while probably most expensive and involved - likely the least likely to be abused. Will it be? Sure - just like some of us used fake IDs to get alcohol under age at the local store. But, again, would be more stringent and harder to abuse.

The internet has always been ahead of security features... it will take a while for them to catch up, as always.

 

[MissCougar]

You don't, simple as.

I think you got to somehow though. I believe it is inevitable unfortunately.

I wouldn't be surprised if the internet isn't a heavily moderated service 20 years from now where it is a government/corporate entity and the only thing you do on it is work, pay bills, buy necessities, and see news or TV that you have subscriptions for. I think there will be some forums for local/world news events but it will be moderated locally.

I agree with some sort of verification for adult purchases, but I also see the next steps for where it will go and that it's more or less a gateway drug to further censorship. I don't believe what they are aiming for currently is unwarranted censorship and agree with it, but I don't think it will stay that way once blood is in the water.

I think once the world powers realized the Internet and independent media was more powerful than CNN reporting and traditional media avenues for public opinion, it was game over for the Internet as we knew it until recently. The governments and corporations will take control of it and they know exactly how to do it, what to say, and which politicians to force it through and how to align it.

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

I think you got to somehow though. I believe it is inevitable unfortunately.

No, you really don't. How many of those "oh-so concerned" parents have ever even bothered with

You must be registered to see the links

? I'd guess less than 5%, and that's high-balling it. I am not putting my ID in some database (they absolutely will NOT delete valuable data) because some parents can't be bothered doing their goddamn job.

 

[MissCougar]

Yup. But we haven't seen the the same moral slider in brick-and-mortar usage over the decades. Primarily used to prove age (and ID for using checks or credit cards, when necessary). But, that slipper slope argument will always be there.

That's because the things you need ID for are already identified as such. Alcohol, controlled substances, magazines that have been registered as such, etc. there isn't a moral slider because the process for identifying these items is complete.

That's my point about the moral slider for "what is an adult video game", and how I indicated it will probably be M and up. So GTAs would need this, and all games would need to either need to have third party identification done or self-identify as AO by default. If you are less than AO you need it proven by a third party. So Care Bears Party indie game is made but the dev can't afford the audit... well it must be AO until the audit proves otherwise and it is actually an E rated game.

People who think they are simply using this as a way to censor stuff... they wouldn't even need to do that --- Steam could simply stop selling adult content if they wanted to. It wouldn't hurt their bottom line dramatically. Adult content isn't making or breaking their budget. It's not a strong argument - but it feeds the paranoia and conspiracy synapses in an overactive amygdala for certain people.

Honestly I never understood why Steam allowed it on in the first place. And I remember Epic Games saying they would never do it, so I'm sure they are frothing at the mouth hoping this is the hill Steam does on because they are the next best thing behind Steam.

This I would agree with you on.

My "Mobile ID" app can be logged in with either a pin or fingerprint. I think somehow integrating that app with biometrics to use websites which are following the law for age-verification is - while probably most expensive and involved - likely the least likely to be abused. Will it be? Sure - just like some of us used fake IDs to get alcohol under age at the local store. But, again, would be more stringent and harder to abuse.

The internet has always been ahead of security features... it will take a while for them to catch up, as always.

Agreed. Someone will come up with some sort of next gen authenticator and it will get government backing and ultimately skyrocket that company into riches beyond their wildest dreams.

This is why so many companies are currently fighting to get this enabled and why they are offering their services to do it. Whoever is the global gold standard will be on yachts for the rest of their families existence now and into the future.

It just needs to be robust enough to stop the casual and mid-level abuser. So all the people signing Norman Reedus up for porn across the planet show that what was built currently is not the way to go. There will be something better around here corner, probably within the next five years or less would be my bet. And that will be globally adopted.

 

[MissCougar]

No, you really don't. How many of those "oh-so concerned" parents have ever even bothered with

You must be registered to see the links

? I'd guess less than 5%, and that's high-balling it. I am not putting my ID in some database (they absolutely will NOT delete valuable data) because some parents can't be bothered doing their goddamn job.

And that's precisely why people are moving to a zero trust society where the government will parent your children for you. Life today is too complicated for a parent to do themselves with too many features and moving parts.

Plus as Count Morado correctly pointed out, in most modern families the kids are the IT support. They already have access to everything. If they don't want parental guard on windows they will set themselves up as the admin. Microsoft isn't going to jump in and say "oh no you can't do that,
young child" because they told the system they were born 1979/1/1 as they randomly scrolled the year fields down a few dozen pages before randomly selecting a year and leaving the day and month untouched.

If you don't have kids yet, you're massively not aware of how in tune kids are with common technology these days. They know how to bypass stuff.

 

[Count Morado]

That's because the things you need ID for are already identified as such. Alcohol, controlled substances, magazines that have been registered as such, etc. there isn't a moral slider because the process for identifying these items is complete.

That's my point about the moral slider for "what is an adult video game", and how I indicated it will probably be M and up. So GTAs would need this, and all games would need to either need to have third party identification done or self-identify as AO by default. If you are less than AO you need it proven by a third party. So Care Bears Party indie game is made but the dev can't afford the audit... well it must be AO until the audit proves otherwise and it is actually an E rated game.

Brick-and-mortar video game stores, such as GameStop, already have corporate policy that aligns with this. If a person wants to purchase an "M" rated game and they appear to be younger than 25, employees are directed to ask for an ID to prove the potential buyer's age.

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

And that's precisely why people are moving to a zero trust society where the government will parent your children for you. Life today is too complicated for a parent to do themselves with too many features and moving parts.

Plus as Count Morado correctly pointed out, in most modern families the kids are the IT support. They already have access to everything. If they don't want parental guard on windows they will set themselves up as the admin. Microsoft isn't going to jump in and say "oh no you can't do that,
young child" because they told the system they were born 1979/1/1 as they randomly scrolled the year fields down a few dozen pages before randomly selecting a year and leaving the day and month untouched.

If you don't have kids yet, you're massively not aware of how in tune kids are with common technology these days. They know how to bypass stuff.

Really thought you were smarter than this.

 

[MissCougar]

I would be amused to know, across all the age gated platforms, what the percentage of users is who were born on January 1st.

 

[Count Morado]

because they told the system they were born 1979/1/1 as they randomly scrolled the year fields down a few dozen pages before randomly selecting a year and leaving the day and month untouched.

If you don't have kids yet, you're massively not aware of how in tune kids are with common technology these days. They know how to bypass stuff.

I randomly select it so that I'm younger (but still old enough) every time I have to "say" how old I am. Usually April Fools, though.

And, yup, about the kids. They grew up on this stuff... literally (I only grew up on TRS-80, Commodore Vic-20 and 64, Apple II, Apple IIe). While I never used it as a babysitter or pacifier - tablet usage was common in my household while I parented. Having children NOT in tune with tech seriously hinders them dramatically in education and employment possibilities for their future.

 

[MissCougar]

Really thought you were smarter than this.

I am sorry to disappoint I guess.

I never claimed to be a genius.

I am trying to state the point of view where I see things going ultimately, and how these connections exist to get from A to Z, and how people may be able to achieve their goals and what it may mean for us as users of a global platform.

 

[Count Morado]

I am sorry to disappoint I guess.

I never claimed to be a genius.

I am trying to state the point of view where I see things going ultimately, and how these connections exist to get from A to Z, and how people may be able to achieve their goals and what it may mean for us as users of a global platform.

I don't fully agree with your prognostication about certain aspects --- though I do believe there will be more aspects of it that will resemble "real life" "in person" activity with regulatory requirements, etc.

At least you weren't called a simp or a white knight for simply stating it like it is.

It is always interesting to see how there are people think who have a view that the internet would somehow exist outside of society, laws, regulations, and the like. It exists and evolves because of commerce. Commerce which is regulated by the government and manipulated by corporations.

But there will always be corners of the internet for places like F95Zone... just like there are places "in real life" for people to hang out and be pervs.

 

[MissCougar]

I don't fully agree with your prognostication about certain aspects --- though I do believe there will be more aspects of it that will resemble "real life" "in person" activity with regulatory requirements, etc.

At least you weren't called a simp or a white knight for simply stating it like it is.

It is always interesting to see how there are people think who have a view that the internet would somehow exist outside of society, laws, regulations, and the like. It exists and evolves because of commerce. Commerce which is regulated by the government and manipulated by corporations.

But there will always be corners of the internet for places like F95Zone... just like there are places "in real life" for people to hang out and be pervs.

I agree. I think we both mostly see the reason behind it but may disagree on the scope and implementation, which is honestly all over the place so it's speculation at best.

I think places like this will hopefully continue to exist even after, though the political dialog may attract too much attention but at least it won't be about the money side. Money seems to be the pinion currently.

Though in some of my bleaker outlooks for the future internet I could see each country switching from a blacklist to a whitelist system, so this too would go away once it is not included in the country whitelist.

Hopefully it won't come to that, and we'll be allowed to have spaces where you can be more free... but I honestly don't know anymore what the internets future will be.

 

[morphnet]

Maybe I am missing your point, but I was mostly referring to what Count Morado was indicating.

I do apologize if I am misunderstanding anything.

I don't believe you can have age verification without ID verification. People using Death Stranding as verification has already proven that to be a big failure. Norman Reedus has probably been ID'd to go on way too many adult sites by now, and that is kind of funny. He's pretty the most porn addicted man in the world at this point.

But to my point about zero trust, I think people will find that the needle of what is considered adult content is going to move swiftly once a standard is set. It will additionally not be able to be about moral opinion. Some form standard will be required.

I also see this returning to any M or higher rated game. You need to ID yourself to purchase it. And then we circle back to the "How do we effectively ID" argument, and then we return to the in person with government issued ID and a zero trust society.

Im not entirely sure how you can start slicing this pie apart without ultimately getting to the point where online purchases have to stop, except maybe for food or needed items.

My point is that verification is a very slippery slope and once people no longer trust each other it will go into areas you didn't think it would very very quickly, because that is how society operates. Regulations will take over for moral opinions and those regulations will have requirements that need to be evaluated against every product.

If you somehow believe this will be a situation that only applies to porny games, I have some lakefront property on the moon to sell you.

Im also unsure how you are referring to ilegal content. I would assume that my local crack dealer is not going to accept mastercard for my purchase and that MC would try to ensure that is blocked, regardless of ID verification.

The point is that it will never result in the end of online buying. There are already too many blurred lines in threads like these.

It will lead to some services, porn, gambling, alcohol, drugs, weapons etc. becoming more annoying to use but to say that age verification will be the downfall of buying bed sets, surfboards, frozen the movie, socks, milk etc. is as I said an exaggeration way beyond the point.