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The future of the JDMOD

desmosome

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2018
1,408
2,987
I'm amazed a pirate forum is telling someone to monetize a MOD for a game people are pirating from the original creator.

Yes his MODs are great and useful but I don't agree with making money off someone else's work. Maybe I would be fine with it if it was simply just donations but the fact that he's got a "public" version and a "patreon" version of his MOD with different features makes me believe his intentions are not as noble as he claims.

If he really cared he could just get in touch with the original creators and offer them his MOD to just add to their games, especially since he's getting burned out from updating them himself.
What do you mean? He laid out all his concerns and intentions in the OP. Do you have a problem with people getting paid for their work? Why do you care if other people decide to support him? As long as there is no legal issues with IP infringement or whatever, then there is no problem. Giving patreons some perks or early access is standard practice.
 
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JohnDupont

Active Member
Modder
May 26, 2017
575
1,693
Hello friends,

Although the words are not coming easily, things need to be said if I want to continue this adventure.

Yesterday, I released the first update since the creation of the Patreon page.
9 minutes later, it had already been , without any mention to the way of supporting it.

As a contributing member of the F95 community for over a year, I expected the patron rewards to be shared at some point ; I even had planned to make more and more of my work public over time. But I never thought it would happen so soon.

At first, I felt angry and I had the juvenile reaction of . Then, I got sad. Finally, as I wrote back to the sharer and tried to understand his motives, I felt rage invading my mind again.
For (and ), I am being "selfish" and "using others work to get money". I don't have the words to describe how it feels to see a hundred plus hours and thousands of lines of codes being considered as using someone else's work. The galleries have been inspired by the work Ndsferrari (the guy who also makes the ) did on KoD ; what he did was the masterpiece that got me into modding.
I saw the update being leaked mere minutes after its release as a premeditated act. I took it as a betrayal. Someone, from the community I had given a lot to, had been following me, waiting for the opportunity to stab me in the back.
I was naive ; I thought my work and my efforts deserved a bit of respect. I was wrong.

On the one hand, the F95 community is full of great people who respect, help and share with each other (I gave because each of them in his own way encouraged me to keep going). On the other, some of its members are of the same impolite, disrespectful, entitled kind one can find all over the internet ( ). I also have a problem with those who and expect everything to be handed to them on a plate.
This is one of the reasons for creating this page and making my own community.

I've been open to and since the very beginning. Because I'd rather have someone tell me the hard truth face to face than go behind my back. Because I want the quality of my projects to be as high as possible and good ideas can come from anywhere and anyone.

I wanted this Patreon page to grow slowly as I released more mods for the supporters and the non-supporters alike.
I was quite surprised when so many of you decided to follow me on this journey. For that, I'm truly thankful.
My plan was to continue this adventure for 3 months before I made a decision concerning the future of my projects and, even though it's gonna harder than I initially thought, I'll stick to it.

I'll share with you what I wanted to do with the TT MOD: The Public version will be released after Christmas for the Supporters of the Future for review. This Public version will be available to everyone in early January when I release the full version to Patrons.
Since "Prime access to all the future mods" is something I promised to the Supporters of the Future, there will be a delay for Supporters of the Present and I have not decided how much yet. I'd like to know what you'd consider to be fair.

Right now, all I fell is sadness and anger with disappointment poured on top of it. I'll take a break from modding for a few days and focus on communication. If you don't agree or like something, I expect you to contact me either on F95 or on Patreon, publicly or privately, and I'll be more than happy to explain my decision making and make improvements.

Thank you for reading.
 

HopesGaming

The Godfather
Game Developer
Dec 21, 2017
1,125
8,224
I'm going to say it to you straight. You need a way thicker skin. There will be hate, there will be a lot complains and there will be negativity. That is just how life is and you need to be better at handling it. Your thread is mostly filled with positivity, your patron is already at a whopping 30 patrons (that is fast), and yet you only focus on the very few negative ones. Filled with sadness, anger, and disappointment.

saw the update being leaked mere minutes after its release as a premeditated act. I took it as a betrayal. Someone, from the community I had given a lot to, had been following me, waiting for the opportunity to stab me in the back.
I was naive ; I thought my work and my efforts deserved a bit of respect. I was wrong.
This is wrong in so many ways.
Even though I always say that this site is excellent for talking with the player base, exposure, the community and getting patrons - it's still a pirate forum. And it doesn't matter if the dev/modder/artist is on good terms with the people here and have been part of the community for a long time. Everyone gets treated the same way. No one gets special treatment.
Stuff will be pirated and you should've have expected it to happen (doesn't matter if it's fast or not). It's not betrayal nor is it backstabbing.

I am not saying all these things to pull you down but rather for you to pull yourself together.
If you don't control your feelings and your view of how you deserve to be treated here then you going to crack. And your modding and patron will suffer for it which would be a waste since, in all honesty, it's going well with it. You should be proud instead.

Good luck
 

desmosome

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2018
1,408
2,987
I can understand your frustration, but I think your expectations were a bit misplaced. You can do all the things on your end to ensure that patrons get some extra perks, but what they do with the releases is pretty much up to them. Its been like this for every game out there. You can communicate with your patrons to try not to share things too early and stuff, but that expectation on your end can only lead to disappointment. I don't think you should view sharing on this site as anything negative. I may be pulling this out of my ass, but I am quite sure that the main motivation in people pledging on patreon is to support a dev, not to gain access to whatever perks they get. Its common knowledge that things will get pirated. The people with the financial means and good will to support someone will do it despite the fact that they can get it for free.

Just do right by your patrons, communicate clearly, try to deliver as best as you can, but most importantly, try to enjoy what you do. I have no idea where your patreon page will end up in 3 months financially, but its going to be a slow process and may not ever reach a level where you can be satisfied that the money is worth the amount of work you put in. So in the end, if you don't derive any joy from what you are doing, there is no reason to force yourself to continue. Good luck man.
 

CulayTL

Sneaky Bastard
Donor
Game Developer
Jan 31, 2018
4,072
24,176
Do you have a problem with people getting paid for their work?
Actually he doesn't have any problems:

Maybe I would be fine with it if it was simply just donations
Where I am 100% on his side.

At first, I felt angry
Yeah.. well I got angry too, @JohnDupont , I got angry because you made the mod behind a pay-wall only for the 0.22 Final and that was the reason why I shared the link that fast because I'm not finding that fair, not for Eva and not for us the players (some supporters). I was ok with the unlock option for patrons only but making the full update for patrons only - meh.. not really. I'm pretty sure if you ask Eva Kiss now about making a mod (for patrons only) on her game without giving her a part she wouldn't like it either.

Yes I understand it's enormous work, hours spent for 9 minutes, but at the end it's Eva Kiss's work here... at least that's my point of view.

What can I say now.. I'm truly sorry for your feelings, take a couple of days off, relax, come back, gather your thoughts together and maybe work on a new plan.. anyway all the best and good luck with your projects.
 
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JohnDupont

Active Member
Modder
May 26, 2017
575
1,693
I think that the Patreon project will be an awesome thing if it kicks off, you totally deserve the support for the amount of work you put into your mods and guides. Keeping them updated is harder than it looks, since figuring out all the changes and content is a time-consuming process even when we get the source code as with Ren'Py games.
I'd have like to replay sooner but I've been spending a lot of time modding lately.

I understand now that making this kind of content is underestimated. Let's hope it will change over time.

I really hope that you get some recognition via Patreon and some compensation for your toil, though I wouldn't expect much support if the word remains limited to this forum - we're all here for the FREE goodies, after all.
With what happened yesterday, you couldn't be more right :cry:.

I would readily pledge had not my financial situation gotten bleaker this past year and a half. But as soon as I will get some form of income you can rest assured my name will pop up among pledgers.
Thank you but you don't need to, send me a PM and I'll give everything you want (which is not much because everything is public at the moment).

In any case, I reiterate the appreciation that we all should give for your endeavour and I think you should take as many breaks and work at whatever the pace you feel like and for whichever game you decide to. Don't let any of us guilt-trip you to keep anything up to snuff, unless the Patreon page gets up steam, in that case patrons might have a say on the matter =P
It's the honeymoon phase right now ; I'm trying to stay as positive as I can. I find it very motivating to know exactly how many people are interested and to try to build something bigger.

If I were you, I'd try to figure out some way to automate some of the tasks you face for every update.
Of course the matter is game-specific, but after a while maybe it's possible to figure out some pattern for some of the projects you follow. This is very generic, I know, sort of brainstormy more than advice.
If I remember correctly, automation was something you proposed a few months back. I have given it a lot of thoughts and came up with very little idea on how to improve it.
 

pinkelephant

Member
Sep 17, 2017
139
337
I've tried your KoD & GGGB mods a few times and they are pretty damn good. And from what I've seen, many others think the same. Your work is excellent, that is undeniable. I wholeheartedly agree with HopesGaming (Great game btw) and I think you should follow their advice.

Keep in mind that there will always be pirates. As content gets more and more popular and/or better it'll get shared/pirated faster. Your mod getting pirated in 9 minutes is, in a way, a compliment ;)

The whole "paid mods" thing has and always will be a heated discussion.

I really do respect the amount time & effort you modders put in to your work, and there's obviously nothing wrong with wanting support for your work, whether it being Patreon/One-time donations or feedback / bug testing. It's all fine & dandy until the creator locks part of any content (mod/game/whatever) or the latest version of said content behind a paywall (not talking about early access).

Maybe don't make patreon-only features/mods? My suggestion would be giving early access to patrons and releasing the mod for everyone after some time you're comfortable with.

Also, 28 patrons in 8 days? Maybe I'm just talking out of my ass but I'm pretty sure that's good, Good luck!


Sorry if I'm just rambling & don't make any sense, can't think straight atm
 
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JohnDupont

Active Member
Modder
May 26, 2017
575
1,693
I'm going to say it to you straight. You need a way thicker skin. There will be hate, there will be a lot complains and there will be negativity. That is just how life is and you need to be better at handling it. Your thread is mostly filled with positivity, your patron is already at a whopping 30 patrons (that is fast), and yet you only focus on the very few negative ones. Filled with sadness, anger, and disappointment.
I agree with you.

I needed to express my feelings. It's important for me to stay open and transparent, even when the night is dark and full of terrors.

This is wrong in so many ways.
Even though I always say that this site is excellent for talking with the player base, exposure, the community and getting patrons - it's still a pirate forum. And it doesn't matter if the dev/modder/artist is on good terms with the people here and have been part of the community for a long time. Everyone gets treated the same way. No one gets special treatment.
Stuff will be pirated and you should've have expected it to happen (doesn't matter if it's fast or not). It's not betrayal nor is it backstabbing.
There's a difference between sharing the work of someone with 2k patrons and sharing it of someone with 20.
There's a difference between sharing the work of someone hours after the release and sharing it .

I didn't like how it was done but I don't resent @CulayTL and I don't have a problem with his decision of sharing.
Being called "selfish" and "making money off someone else's work" is what really hurted me.

I am not saying all these things to pull you down but rather for you to pull yourself together.
If you don't control your feelings and your view of how you deserve to be treated here then you going to crack. And your modding and patron will suffer for it which would be a waste since, in all honesty, it's going well with it. You should be proud instead.

Good luck
Thank you, I'm trying my best to stay positive.

I received more support than I expected and I'll work hard to get even more supporters.



I can understand your frustration, but I think your expectations were a bit misplaced. You can do all the things on your end to ensure that patrons get some extra perks, but what they do with the releases is pretty much up to them. Its been like this for every game out there. You can communicate with your patrons to try not to share things too early and stuff, but that expectation on your end can only lead to disappointment. I don't think you should view sharing on this site as anything negative. I may be pulling this out of my ass, but I am quite sure that the main motivation in people pledging on patreon is to support a dev, not to gain access to whatever perks they get. Its common knowledge that things will get pirated. The people with the financial means and good will to support someone will do it despite the fact that they can get it for free.
You're right, I didn't see Patreon this way and I'll need to change my view of it.

Just do right by your patrons, communicate clearly, try to deliver as best as you can, but most importantly, try to enjoy what you do. I have no idea where your patreon page will end up in 3 months financially, but its going to be a slow process and may not ever reach a level where you can be satisfied that the money is worth the amount of work you put in. So in the end, if you don't derive any joy from what you are doing, there is no reason to force yourself to continue. Good luck man.
Thank you for the advice.



Maybe I would be fine with it if it was simply just donations but the fact that he's got a "public" version and a "patreon" version of his MOD with different features makes me believe his intentions are not as noble as he claims.
Where I am 100% on his side.
Good idea. :D
In the meantime, . at first but I gave it some thoughts: I could always use the money to support the game developers.
After more than a month, I created a ; it felt like a better platform for donations than the pay per month system of Patreon. I didn't communicate a lot about it: if people wanted to donate, great ; if they didn't, I didn't mind. In the end, it didn't matter ; creating the page was a waste of time


Yeah.. well I got angry too, @JohnDupont , I got angry because you made the mod behind a pay-wall only for the 0.22 Final and that was the reason why I shared the link that fast because I'm not finding that fair, not for Eva and not for us the players (some supporters). I was ok with the unlock option for patrons only but making the full update for patrons only - meh.. not really.
I want it to be fair. Are you certain it would be OK for the patrons if I changed the patreon rewards?
I made 2 polls on the Patreon page. One is Patrons Only while the other is Public



If he really cared he could just get in touch with the original creators and offer them his MOD to just add to their games, especially since he's getting burned out from updating them himself.
I'm pretty sure if you ask Eva Kiss now about making a mod (for patrons only) on her game without giving her a part she wouldn't like it either.

Yes I understand it's enormous work, hours spent for 9 minutes, but at the end it's Eva Kiss's work here... at least that's my point of view.
I thought about contacting EvaKiss after GGGB to try to help with the next game, but I might have to do it sooner.
Incorporating the JDMOD to the base game would take a lot of time and don't see myself doing it.
Anyway, I think I'll leave the decision of contacting him/her to Patrons because if she says "no" to the JDMOD I'll stop it even if it means the end of my adventure.



What can I say now.. I'm truly sorry for your feelings, take a couple of days off, relax, come back, gather your thoughts together and maybe work on a new plan.. anyway all the best and good luck with your projects.
Thank you, I said something about telling me the hard truth and I meant it. I think I'll grow from this experience.
 

JohnDupont

Active Member
Modder
May 26, 2017
575
1,693
I've tried your KoD & GGGB mods a few times and they are pretty damn good. And from what I've seen, many others think the same. Your work is excellent, that is undeniable. I wholeheartedly agree with HopesGaming (Great game btw) and I think you should follow their advice.

Keep in mind that there will always be pirates. As content gets more and more popular and/or better it'll get shared/pirated faster. Your mod getting pirated in 9 minutes is, in a way, a compliment ;)

The whole "paid mods" thing has and always will be a heated discussion.

I really do respect the amount time & effort you modders put in to your work, and there's obviously nothing wrong with wanting support for your work, whether it being Patreon/One-time donations or feedback / bug testing. It's all fine & dandy until the creator locks part of any content (mod/game/whatever) or the latest version of said content behind a paywall (not talking about early access).

Maybe don't make patreon-only features/mods? My suggestion would be giving early access to patrons and releasing the mod for everyone after some time you're comfortable with.

Also, 28 patrons in 8 days? Maybe I'm just talking out of my ass but I'm pretty sure that's good, Good luck!
In the end, I still want to give special rewards to patrons, because they deserve it, but early access/special feature/etc... will also be shared.
I don't want to go against sharing but I'm preaching a more respectful and responsible way of doing it. Instant sharing goes against my goal of giving decent rewards to patrons.
 

Epadder

Programmer
Game Developer
Oct 25, 2016
371
371
In my mind there are what I would call 'three major points of contention' when trying to monetize modding in general.

The History of modding:
Typically for quite a long time now mods have been made by fans for fans because the author absolutely loves the original game in some way. So people get the idea in their head that all mod authors should follow this altruistic approach always and anyone who deviates from this path is in the wrong.

Without the original there is nothing:
So the hard truth is that no matter how many hours you put into something to make it better, without the original you would have had nothing to work with. So without the express consent of the original creator on you making some kind of money for your effort, you will be in the wrong in that person's eyes.

You gave me free candy and now your charging for it:
People don't like change that loses them some kind of benefit, so changing from a 'all my stuff is free all the time to everyone' to 'my stuff will eventually be free, but if you pay me I can speed up the wait' or 'I'll give you some stuff for free, but the best stuff you have to pay me for'. The second stance being even more likely to upset people drastically.

Then we come to the very specific situation of this site, if you are trying to build a following and make a living here on F95zone you should always be aware your building your base in the middle of a pirate fort. So don't get too upset when a pirate does what a pirate always does: share other people's content for free.

Then as a final parting to this long post, my personal stance.

I think a mod maker having a Patreon/Other donation method to make it easier for people to support the work he does for everyone is fine. I don't like temporary paywalls very much and I like permanent paywalls even less.

I firmly believe in the 'Without the original there is nothing' so I personally would not make a Donation/Patreon page for any mod project I do. The only time I would create such a page is if I had a project that I was making from the ground up. For me modding is how I'm learning to develop.

Anyway good luck with your projects, I'll probably see you around the Programming and Development forums :D
 

JohnDupont

Active Member
Modder
May 26, 2017
575
1,693
In my mind there are what I would call 'three major points of contention' when trying to monetize modding in general.

The History of modding:
Typically for quite a long time now mods have been made by fans for fans because the author absolutely loves the original game in some way. So people get the idea in their head that all mod authors should follow this altruistic approach always and anyone who deviates from this path is in the wrong.

Without the original there is nothing:
So the hard truth is that no matter how many hours you put into something to make it better, without the original you would have had nothing to work with. So without the express consent of the original creator on you making some kind of money for your effort, you will be in the wrong in that person's eyes.

You gave me free candy and now your charging for it:
People don't like change that loses them some kind of benefit, so changing from a 'all my stuff is free all the time to everyone' to 'my stuff will eventually be free, but if you pay me I can speed up the wait' or 'I'll give you some stuff for free, but the best stuff you have to pay me for'. The second stance being even more likely to upset people drastically.

Then we come to the very specific situation of this site, if you are trying to build a following and make a living here on F95zone you should always be aware your building your base in the middle of a pirate fort. So don't get too upset when a pirate does what a pirate always does: share other people's content for free.

Then as a final parting to this long post, my personal stance.

I think a mod maker having a Patreon/Other donation method to make it easier for people to support the work he does for everyone is fine. I don't like temporary paywalls very much and I like permanent paywalls even less.

I firmly believe in the 'Without the original there is nothing' so I personally would not make a Donation/Patreon page for any mod project I do. The only time I would create such a page is if I had a project that I was making from the ground up. For me modding is how I'm learning to develop.

Anyway good luck with your projects, I'll probably see you around the Programming and Development forums :D
My argument against the "Without the original there is nothing" stance: without modders there would be no DotA, no League of Legends, no Counterstrike, no Heroes of the Storm (RIP), no PUBG, no Fortnite, ...

It doesn't apply to my mods but I wanted to put it out there.
 

Epadder

Programmer
Game Developer
Oct 25, 2016
371
371
My argument against the "Without the original there is nothing" stance: without modders there would be no DotA, no League of Legends, no Counterstrike, no Heroes of the Storm (RIP), no PUBG, no Fortnite, ...

It doesn't apply to my mods but I wanted to put it out there.
Fair Enough :D

Although in that case if you have something fairly popular and pretty transformative, it might be best to try and market that back to the original author to 'buy' it off you or take the central concept and make something wholly yours/teams. Having a following is a big boon for marketing something new.

I guess my thought is mods that are in the grand-scheme of things still too close to the original, can't be separated from the game that is being modified, or use too many assets that don't belong to them: shouldn't be behind a paywall.

Accepting a commission to make a specific mod for a game at the request of someone else would also be okay, fan artists are sought often to make a scene/pose with a popular character(s).

I guess the only other way to paywall a mod without repercussion, would be with the original creators express permission and paying a percentage back of your earnings on that mod. :)
 

JohnDupont

Active Member
Modder
May 26, 2017
575
1,693
Fair Enough :D

Although in that case if you have something fairly popular and pretty transformative
It doesn't have to be popular, only pretty transformative.

it might be best to try and market that back to the original author to 'buy' it off you or take the central concept and make something wholly yours/teams.
There is a problem with "try(ing) and market(ing) that back to the original author to 'buy' it off you":
It didn't write it in the OP: My least favourite option is the second one. It's hard to let go of something you work countless hours on.
I can't see myself doing it for the KoD Walkthrough or the GGGB Mod, I made these two because I really enjoyed the games and they are respectively my first project and my first ambitious mod.
Having a following is a big boon for marketing something new.

I guess my thought is mods that are in the grand-scheme of things still too close to the original, can't be separated from the game that is being modified, or use too many assets that don't belong to them: shouldn't be behind a paywall.

Accepting a commission to make a specific mod for a game at the request of someone else would also be okay, fan artists are sought often to make a scene/pose with a popular character(s).

I guess the only other way to paywall a mod without repercussion, would be with the original creators express permission and paying a percentage back of your earnings on that mod. :)
I don't think it's that easy. There are good arguments on both sides (If only two sides there are...)

I wanted to learn more about paid mods and found this discussion:

Capture11.PNG
Capture12.PNG
Capture13.PNG
 
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Epadder

Programmer
Game Developer
Oct 25, 2016
371
371
The previous points were more a general discussion to add nuance to my feelings on charging a fee to access a mod and sort of spitballing ideas on how to monetize that didn't necessarily lead to a paywall, not completely relevant to your situation.

The Skyrim situation was the 3 points on contention I mentioned before and something that could be a contention for a heavily modded game, but currently pretty irrelevant to adult games (nothing is big enough).

My $60 dollar game that gave me hundreds of hours of entertainment, just became a $1000 game.
When you have a game that has a huge selection of mods that all add changes that stack up to make a perfect game, but a lot of the individual changes aren't of a quality that you could justify paying a small amount or at all.

Also the Skyrim situation was a wild west as neuralnetwork said on trying to determine the quality of a mod and the prices of things varied wildly. Not to mention that people were taking either pieces or whole mods to try and get in on the perceived 'gold rush'.

With Creators Club it was that the curated offerings weren't very impressive, which didn't even begin to demonstrate the possible power of actually funding fan-created content. It was a lot of Oblivion 'horse armor' DLC, made by people who didn't demonstrate talent greater than the free offerings.

I think that unfortunately it's a Catch-22 of you need talented people to demonstrate that they have something that people want and that their work is actually worth continuing to fund.

These are also more my general thoughts, not about your specific situation.

More specifically to your situation is that patrons coming from this site probably aren't really benefiting from you making Patreon exclusive content, especially if your looking at timed exclusivity anyway. They are supporting you because they like what you make and want you to continue. :)
 
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random.guy

Active Member
Aug 11, 2017
814
1,265
In my mind there are what I would call 'three major points of contention' when trying to monetize modding in general.

The History of modding:
Typically for quite a long time now mods have been made by fans for fans because the author absolutely loves the original game in some way. So people get the idea in their head that all mod authors should follow this altruistic approach always and anyone who deviates from this path is in the wrong.

Without the original there is nothing:
So the hard truth is that no matter how many hours you put into something to make it better, without the original you would have had nothing to work with. So without the express consent of the original creator on you making some kind of money for your effort, you will be in the wrong in that person's eyes.

You gave me free candy and now your charging for it:
People don't like change that loses them some kind of benefit, so changing from a 'all my stuff is free all the time to everyone' to 'my stuff will eventually be free, but if you pay me I can speed up the wait' or 'I'll give you some stuff for free, but the best stuff you have to pay me for'. The second stance being even more likely to upset people drastically.

Then we come to the very specific situation of this site, if you are trying to build a following and make a living here on F95zone you should always be aware your building your base in the middle of a pirate fort. So don't get too upset when a pirate does what a pirate always does: share other people's content for free.

Then as a final parting to this long post, my personal stance.

I think a mod maker having a Patreon/Other donation method to make it easier for people to support the work he does for everyone is fine. I don't like temporary paywalls very much and I like permanent paywalls even less.

I firmly believe in the 'Without the original there is nothing' so I personally would not make a Donation/Patreon page for any mod project I do. The only time I would create such a page is if I had a project that I was making from the ground up. For me modding is how I'm learning to develop.

Anyway good luck with your projects, I'll probably see you around the Programming and Development forums :D
I'll quote this post to @ you, but I mean to address the whole Modding subject.

People underestimate what making some mods does entail in terms of work. Saying that without the original the mod couldn't exist is true but doesn't imply that the mod is in itself not a creative product and the fruit of a person's work and intellect.
Look at Bethesda games, some of the mods fix the fucking game, some improve it beyond what the developers were able to ship and some are straight out expansions (there's a Skyrim mod that's a whole new game and a Fallout 4 mod that does the same).
If you fix a game's bug or pack hundreds of higher resolution textures and new better models, or if you ship motherfucking CBBE with tools that enable fucking body sliders and item adaptation to those custom body models, you just worked as much if not more than the developers that shipped Skyrim building on an existing game engine.
The kind of work that goes in 3D sculpts, in textures or code to introduce new features to a game is just the same that the original developers poured in. To distinguish the two because the latter worked for the owner of the intellectual property is hyper-capitalist bullshit. Those people all engage in the same kind of activity and have the same dignity.
That said, if the modder earns any money from his labor it is not because he/she exploits the IP, because those that pay the mod or donate to keep the project going or for simple appreciation do so for the functionality that said mod introduces and that is a creative product of the modder that was not present in the original game. Sometimes it's simpler, sometimes it's harder to do, sometimes you have access to the source code or some API, sometimes you need to reverse engineer stuff, but you nevertheless face at least the same challenges the original devs would have faced if they were to implement what you mean to; usually you face even greater challenges because you have to work with what's been done and don't have access to the source code.

In the case of JD, the effort needed to maintain the mods is huge because for each update of the game you have to figure out all the new content and all the changes that went to earlier parts, which might break previous stuff. Then you have to figure out the different routes, their consequences and requirements, which even for Ren'Py games, that allow access to the source code, becomes quickly time consuming due to the spaghetti structure in which the code is split into files and labels. Then you have to ship your additional features, which might require scrupulous edit throughout the code base to ensure nothing breaks or simply because there are a lot of places in which edits are needed.
All this stuff requires time, both to implement and to research.

Here we come to the core of the matter: the time a person invests is limited and only that person can decide whether it's free for others to enjoy the fruit of their toil. I know we're on a site that hosts leaked copies of patreon exclusives and we all download those, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't acknowledge the authors right to monetize their work in some form (of course works built upon other's IPs do not have the right to do so in the technical sense and the whole Patreon support thing is indeed a way to bypass the fact you can't professionally do fan content for someone else's IP). So of course shit will get pirated, but that doesn't mean one should downplay the work that went behind it and flat out advocate that it should've been free in the first place.
In the case of mods, when they are free it is a marvelous gift the modder does to the community, but that doesn't mean the community is entitled to have free mods. If those who spend their time and effort decide to stop doing it for free, whatever the reason, it's their prerogative to do so and the community should thank that they worked for free in the first place.
Does that keep them immune from piracy? Of course not, people who don't buy the product won't pay for the mod either probably in general. But that doesn't mean they should be blamed for paywalling content.
That's what hurts, being called names and disrespected by the same community you gifted with countless hours of effort and up to date walkthroughs and mods for multiple games, even when you make a thread detailing your whole thought process and predicament.

I hope JD will keep up the good work he's been doing, but I don't think we're entitled and were those projects to be ceased we wouldn't have anyone to blame but ourselves, not because we didn't support them monetarily but because we didn't respect the effort they represent enough.
That's the minimum of intellectual honesty we should show, respect for someone who's given a lot to us, for free. Then we can freely choose not to support JD monetarily, for various reasons, but I think that merit should be recognized and we shouldn't blame the choice to reserve something for those that do support. Then, of course, as anything else on this site, stuff will be leaked and used, but respect should remain nonetheless.
 

JohnDupont

Active Member
Modder
May 26, 2017
575
1,693
Sorry @Synnerai, I'd rather have the all debate about paid mods, Patreon, value, etc... on this thread and to keep the other thread only about the GGGB JDMOD. I hope you understand.

I'm a bit tired and probably shouldn't post anything right, I'll add things tomorrow.

I think mods do have value, but not a monetary value.
Isn't money by definition? How can something have value without having monetary value?

For me, mods are very important part of PC gaming, be it individual experience or a sense of a community (PC Master Race and all that shit, hehe). I don't really have an uncompromising stance on this issue myself, because it has it's shady parts, but also some good parts. I, for example, am not against rewarding a modder... for motivation and compensation for their time (yes, it takes a lot of time to make), but I don't think, that a modder should restrict certain parts of their mod to people who didn't pay them money.
EDIT: I don't see myself not rewarding patrons: I'm not comfortable with donations.
Therefore the latest content will be temporarily restricted, as it's the best way to show the value I add. If I don't put enough work in, the rewards will not be worth it anymore and I'll receive less support. As I see it, it's the best way for me to keep my motivation in the long run.​

And what's kinda crazy, is, that you can get the full game for free on this website (and very early at that), but not the full mod. To me it just doesn't seem fair.
You can get the full game for free on this website if someone shares it the same you can the full mod on this website for free if someone shares it.
If you go on , you can't download the game unless you're one of her patron while if you go on you can download the last public version, which is a month all, for free.

What doesn't seem fair to me is your comparison :)

There is a big difference between the developer and the modder. I mean, you do it for fun, as a hobby, right? Not as a job. Or am I wrong? I know it all sounds like a moral appeal, but I just can't help myself in this instance.
Personnally, I always treated this as a job even before Patreon: I always to make a good quality and to update it as fast as possible after the new version of the game was released because it's how I do things and .

It doesn't mean I didn't have fun making it. It was a struggle but I was happy with the end result after the first hundred hours.
Updating it after that got harder and harder.

Also, I can manage without the mod and I am not angry about it, because GGGB isn't even in my top 10 on this site, but again, I just can't help it, but to join the conversation, because the topic is somehow very interesting to me. :D
It's very interesting to me too.

BTW, after reading the patreon posts, I understand some of your points better now
If you really want to understand my points you should read this entire thread. I mean if you have the time ^^

but it's still too bad, that the main part I was using the mod for, the unlock feature, is still restricted ... because you can always save before the scenes and just load the save to play the already viewed "unlocked" scene again. The game has rollback feature, so you can save whenever you want and try different outcomes. If you can manage your saves, you have no problem with revisiting the scenes whenever you want, anyway.

Unlock option used to be a great time saving feature thanks to which I didn't have to play the game multiple times trying every different outcome and sometimes load repeatedly, because I missed something earlier, or I could even skip content I wasn't interested in... locking that feature makes the mod pretty much useless to me, contrary what you would probably think at first glance. Because I can do almost the same thing regardless. Or did I get something wrong about availability of the feature?
Someone commented on my Patreon page that he liked the Unlock feature because it was to hard to keep enough saves.

I have stated why I dislike this feature but I understand how useful it can be.

EDIT: You're right: for the GGGB JDMOD, the Unlock feature is patrons only.

: it's a feature I don't like but it's you guys' favorite.​
I've been seriously considering making it public recently but if I do that I'll have to put a delay on the new content to keep a reward for patrons. I'm speaking about the rewards post
 
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johndoe1545

Resident Head-Patter
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May 5, 2017
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hey JD, love your KoD mods, hope the unlock all feature is to stay free. i understand the need of money when it's take too much of the time, taking away the GGGB "unlock all" is good enough as long the whole gallery is still working.

perhaps setting some mandatory rules would help
- sharing is okay, but be sure to always leave a link (cheap publicity) (also f95zone have direct link to patreon now, by setting a logo under your profile, ask staff for more info)
- once the fanbase is steady, open it to all and act as a tip jar
 

Hjort

Member
Aug 15, 2016
174
301
There's a difference between sharing the work of someone with 2k patrons and sharing it of someone with 20.
Mods ride on the popularity of their respective original project (with a few exceptions). GGGB is popular, your mod makes the game a lot easier to navigate and view scenes, ergo demand for your mod will always be highest the second someone shares the latest version of the game. You are riding on GGGB, and hence get that treatment.

I believe this move will greatly slow or even stall out your Patreaon growth. Discussion and hype stops when a project is not readily accessible, especially on a platform like F95.

That said, still think your work is excellent, and look forward trying the mod out once GGGB is finished and I can rationalize spending money to see all the content in a very nice format. So till then, keep up the great work!
 
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JohnDupont

Active Member
Modder
May 26, 2017
575
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hey JD, love your KoD mods, hope the unlock all feature is to stay free. i understand the need of money when it's take too much of the time, taking away the GGGB "unlock all" is good enough as long the whole gallery is still working.
It's not a need for money but a need to stay motivated if I want to continue updating as often as it's required. To me, each pledge is like saying "Keep up the good work." no matter the amount. Despite some backlash, I received more support and kind words in the last few days than in the last year.


The KoD JDMOD will stay free: I don't need to make major modifcations to the new scenes, I use a slightly modified version of the in-game gallery, it only requires an update every 4 months or so ; it doesn't require that much work.
Even though I ended up creating my own Unlock feature in 0.5.2a (going from everything being unlocked from the start to the "Unlock all" button, to the "Unlock specific scenes" I made for the LaS JDMOD which I need to implement in the other mods), it was @Vinfamy's idea and it made the KoD JDMOD possible (as detailled in the OP).

The Patreon page is not a way of supporting what I did in the past as much as what I'll be adding each month from now on (present and future). I want the patron rewards to reflect the work I put in.

perhaps setting some mandatory rules would help
- sharing is okay, but be sure to always leave a link (cheap publicity) (also f95zone have direct link to patreon now, by setting a logo under your profile, ask staff for more info)
I'll do, thank you.

I had a problem a problem with sharing and I was wrong. I still have a problem with the way it was done though.
It's important to respect people's work: the link to Hreinn Games' Patreon is in footer of the KoD Walkthough since very early on.

Here's another thing I have against how it was done but I'm not entitled to a special treatment:
In the end, I still want to give special rewards to patrons, because they deserve it, but early access/special feature/etc... will also be shared.
I don't want to go against sharing but I'm preaching a more respectful and responsible way of doing it. Instant sharing goes against my goal of giving decent rewards to patrons.

- once the fanbase is steady, open it to all and act as a tip jar
I won't, I've never been comfortable with donations. I want to thank my patrons for the support by giving them a reward which reflect the work I put in.



Mods ride on the popularity of their respective original project (with a few exceptions). GGGB is popular, your mod makes the game a lot easier to navigate and view scenes, ergo demand for your mod will always be highest the second someone shares the latest version of the game. You are riding on GGGB, and hence get that treatment.

I believe this move will greatly slow or even stall out your Patreaon growth. Discussion and hype stops when a project is not readily accessible, especially on a platform like F95.

That said, still think your work is excellent, and look forward trying the mod out once GGGB is finished and I can rationalize spending money to see all the content in a very nice format. So till then, keep up the great work!
That's fair. So he's your review :)

EDIT: I hope you'll reevalute your review when I change the patron rewards though.
 
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johndoe1545

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May 5, 2017
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you do you, that's all. i didn't follow the whole argument saga so i won't comment much on them.

i'm a poor sods, i take what this site offers, that's it. probably will throw some support once i done with my personal commitment
 
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