VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.5.0.4p] [Ceolag]

[xapican]

 

[Pixillin']

Hindsight is 20/20 and all that. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that having mercs called on the children of Templar Grandmasters is not the norm. Remember that until very recently, Hellspawn hadn't been encountered in a long time and the conflict with the Alfar had been at a low simmer, comparatively. So when MC's parents were making their decision, they likely had little reason to believe their children would face a threat of that nature.

I'm not saying they necessarily made the right decision, but I think a lot of people saying the parents should have known and prepared them are looking at it from the perspective of the current conflict which we see in the story and not what had occurred in the decades (or longer) leading up to it.

P.S. You might be thinking about how you can destroy the Templars, but the dev has said the MC will stay "neutral" so I doubt MC is thinking that destructively.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the first part - as for the second, we'll see.

If it's actually written so that MC - finds out that everyone - his parents, his girlfriend, his boss etc have been hiding the truth from him his entire life - that everything he thought was true was a Templar lie, and then he leaves to a place where the Templars have no reach, starts a relationship with a woman (who is definitely not a Templar, or in league with them) and the Templars kill her and the MC is neutral toward the Templars after that - it does not bode well for the devs abilities as a writer.

 

[xapican]

Yeah , and those fuckers are to blame of the length of my dingus, and the piss weather we have !
burn''em all !
(but not Statinator, he stinks better to drown him)

 

[Knightcvel]

The Hellspawn and Alfar things might be new, but the Templars always have enemies - they talk about how understaffed they always are and how they can't deal with all of the threats because they don't have enough people. All of the Templars enemies will know who MC is but MC has no idea who they are, or even that they exist. That is not 'protecting him' that's leaving him in the wind.

That's the reason I don't believe in the story of keeping them in the dark and creating them out of the order for protection. Templars are basically a family bussiness and their numbers are filled by their descendents. The parents of Roland and Helga were templars. Roland promissed to the grandfather of Kaija taking care of her, which implies he was related to the order, too. Rarely someone is recruited from outside and it happens when one is able to find out the templars and their secret world by their own means and it could be a way of keeping them quiet. But it's rare. The rule basically is that new templars are daughters and sons of former templars and their numbers are dwindling. MC father isn't simply a templar, but the boss, and he more than any other should be worried about adding new members but Linnae says he resists to the idea of recruit them outside their families. So I don't believe he would deprive the order and compromise its future by preventing his children of becoming templars when generations of his family traditionally followed these steps. I don't see him as a free thinker or independent thinker to act otherwise. He is keeping MC out from the order by fear he will escape control as soon as he get in touch with supernatural and develop his abilities to the full extent.

 

[Knightcvel]

Yeah , and those fuckers are to blame of the length of my dingus, and the piss weather we have !
burn''em all !
(but not Statinator, he stinks better to drown him)

Burning them was the way used by King Philip IV of France to get rid of them and it was effective. We have to abide for tradition and centuries-tested methods.

 

[Pixillin']

Burning them was the way used by King Philip IV of France to get rid of them and it was effective. We have to abide for tradition and centuries-tested methods.

Yeah, it’s too bad they didn’t wait until the late 18th century. The French were much more thorough and efficient by then.

 

[Knightcvel]

P.S. You might be thinking about how you can destroy the Templars, but the dev has said the MC will stay "neutral" so I doubt MC is thinking that destructively.

I think even following a neutral path it is unavoidable that there will be a struggle against a hidden faction inside the templars. I expect their headquarters will be a battleground among two groups. MC may side with the "official" one, of his parents or even try to prevent another conflict with the Elves that involves fighting against the rogue group. I foresee fighting templars in the future.

 

[Rehwyn]

I think even following a neutral path it is unavoidable that there will be a struggle against a hidden faction inside the templars. I expect their headquarters will be a battleground among two groups. MC may side with the "official" one, of his parents or even try to prevent another conflict with the Elves that involves fighting against the rogue group. I foresee fighting templars in the future.

Sure, I can see that as plausible or even likely. But purging a hidden faction from within the Templars is a very different thing from destroying the Templars. It's essentially the opposite.

 

[HornyyPussy]

Sure, I can see that as plausible or even likely. But purging a hidden faction from within the Templars is a very different thing from destroying the Templars. It's essentially the opposite.

Sigh.....there you go with that pesky logic again.......

 

[xapican]

Sigh.....there you go with that pesky logic again.......

Well, no he has a point, it is bringing the Order back to it's originaly values.
Much better as the widespread "Sicario" logic of some.

 

[Pixillin']

Sure, I can see that as plausible or even likely. But purging a hidden faction from within the Templars is a very different thing from destroying the Templars. It's essentially the opposite.

I don't know about a hidden faction. I see the Templars as bad - just as an organization, even under their ideal "this is what the Templars should be" sort of mission statement, I consider them a net negative for humanity. There may be a hidden faction that is even worse, but that doesn't make the rest of the organization good.

 

[Krytax123]

Well, no he has a point, it is bringing the Order back to it's originaly values.
Much better as the widespread "Sicario" logic of some.

A further point - which a lot of alfar lovers here fail to consider - is that the templars are probably the best safeguared for neverwhere and the alfar.

Medb says herself that they could never compete with all of humankind simply because of the numbers.

IF the templars fall and neverwhere becomes public knowledge, neverwhere would get swarmed by humans sooner or later. We would invade, colonize and breed like humans do.

At some point even the alfar territory could become affected.

Overall i feel like a lot of people here look at this conflict with way too much emotions involved (similar to the mc), at least if they want the mc to become someone making a difference and not staying a kid throwing tantrums.

I would argue even if you think the templars are the pure evil, its not smart to cut ties with them, it just restricts the mcs influence, knowledge and information as long as there is no hard choice to make.

 

[xapican]

Krytax123 ; said by Ceolag himself, the story has all kind of grey shades, it is not black and white,
totally agreed on the "Alfar situation" pretty good Analysis.....

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

I don't know about a hidden faction. I see the Templars as bad - just as an organization, even under their ideal "this is what the Templars should be" sort of mission statement, I consider them a net negative for humanity. There may be a hidden faction that is even worse, but that doesn't make the rest of the organization good.

A lot of the Templars think they are doing good and and want to do good. They do think they protect humanity. The problem I see is they have lost their way and need major internal changes and a philosophical realignment to become the force they should be.

The biggest problem for the Templars is who will bring about that change and where will they find a competent council to lead it. Their stocks are pretty thin.

 

[Maviarab]

The biggest problem for the Templars is who will bring about that change and where will they find a competent council to lead it

 

[minibaer12]

A further point - which a lot of alfar lovers here fail to consider - is that the templars are probably the best safeguared for neverwhere and the alfar.

Medb says herself that they could never compete with all of humankind simply because of the numbers.

IF the templars fall and neverwhere becomes public knowledge, neverwhere would get swarmed by humans sooner or later. We would invade, colonize and breed like humans do.

At some point even the alfar territory could become affected.

Overall i feel like a lot of people here look at this conflict with way too much emotions involved (similar to the mc), at least if they want the mc to become someone making a difference and not staying a kid throwing tantrums.

I would argue even if you think the templars are the pure evil, its not smart to cut ties with them, it just restricts the mcs influence, knowledge and information as long as there is no hard choice to make.

Well, what you say is not without a certain logic. And yet the Templars play a subordinate role for me for now. My main focus is on the following three questions:

- The second sword. It seems to be Nordic, so off to the Vikings. I can certainly imagine that he will learn a few things there too.
- What is so special about the bar when a Valkyrie seems to be a regular there?
- And finally, what special skills does our MC have?

I don't see our MC on either side, it would be pointless and useless, he's still too much of a greenhorn for that!

 

[Pixillin']

A lot of the Templars think they are doing good and and want to do good. They do think they protect humanity. The problem I see is they have lost their way and need major internal changes and a philosophical realignment to become the force they should be.

The biggest problem for the Templars is who will bring about that change and where will they find a competent council to lead it. Their stocks are pretty thin.

If I were put in charge of "fixing" the organization, I wouldn't keep any of them - in any capacity (leadership or otherwise). And really, unless they say "welcome back, you're in charge of the Templars now" I consider all of them enemies - at least until I get whoever killed Finn.

 

[Knightcvel]

A further point - which a lot of alfar lovers here fail to consider - is that the templars are probably the best safeguared for neverwhere and the alfar.

Medb says herself that they could never compete with all of humankind simply because of the numbers.

IF the templars fall and neverwhere becomes public knowledge, neverwhere would get swarmed by humans sooner or later. We would invade, colonize and breed like humans do.

At some point even the alfar territory could become affected.

Overall i feel like a lot of people here look at this conflict with way too much emotions involved (similar to the mc), at least if they want the mc to become someone making a difference and not staying a kid throwing tantrums.

I would argue even if you think the templars are the pure evil, its not smart to cut ties with them, it just restricts the mcs influence, knowledge and information as long as there is no hard choice to make.

The point is that humankind already is aware of Neverwhere. It's not commom public knowledge, but rich corporations have bussiness there. There are at least one human settlement for every city that borders Neverwhere. There are lots of humans living there, and crime is rampant. There are trains crossing it, taking to other human settlements. The Alfar territory is already under risk and the templars are fighting to repel the Alfar even more, to crumble their resistence. Also, I think the templars are founded by those corporations that give them weapons, equipment, resources and everything to keep pushing the Alfar away. Notice that templars won't do anything to combat crime in human settlements and won't intervene to keep their denizens safe. It's because crime is part of the economy of human settlements in Neverwhere. One evidence of the submission of the Templars to the powers that rule Neverwhere can be seen when Roland tell MC about the death of his Grandparents. They tryed to prevent that a drug manufacture in Neverwhere being sold in our world and were killed. The Templars start a war against the drug lords and the powers that rule there called both sides and demanded it stopped. They imposed an agreement of don't allow the drug to be distributed in our world and the Templars won't proceed on their vendetta against the narco lords. They feel that like a bittersweet ending but accepted because they are not the ones who really rule anything.

 

[Knightcvel]

A lot of the Templars think they are doing good and and want to do good. They do think they protect humanity. The problem I see is they have lost their way and need major internal changes and a philosophical realignment to become the force they should be.

The biggest problem for the Templars is who will bring about that change and where will they find a competent council to lead it. Their stocks are pretty thin.

As a fan of Hunter, the Reckoning I see them as most factions on that set. Every one of them is corrupted and their operatives only work under a need to know basis. In the World of Darkness setting, only freelancer hunters may possibly be entirely good because the others are either brainwashed or corrupted.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

If I were put in charge of "fixing" the organization, I wouldn't keep any of them - in any capacity (leadership or otherwise). And really, unless they say "welcome back, you're in charge of the Templars now" I consider all of them enemies - at least until I get whoever killed Finn.

We were talking about the Templars. If we must go back to Finn again...

When you find the Templar that did it, let me know, I am giving them a medal for protecting the Templars from a surprise enemy attack. The Templar defenders are heroes as far as I am concerned. The Elves carried out a surprise attack against human interests and were the aggressors not the Templars. You should be mad at the elves who ordered the attack, that is who got her killed. The Templars were just defending themselves. In a couple of my playthroughs I killed her myself and gladly did so. Crazy cow kept trying to kill me. No sympathy for her.

Can we get back on topic now.