The ntr tag problem

[edod5]

Hi!

This NOT an ntr hate post, but a complaint so please restrain yourself and hold back your ntr hating opinion.

First of all, what is even the definition of ntr?

When the "hover over the tag to see the description" worked it said ntr is some kind of interaction between your loved one and others which sparks jealousy in the heart of the player. Or something similar.

Which can be true but then why do games have this tag where there is nothing like this?

If the requirement is jealousy then that means that if the game is written in a way where the mc (so basically the player) is not only okay with but almost want's the girls having sex with other men, then it's not ntr because if you want something you don't feel bad about it. This is why for example Public Sex Life H is not an ntr game, even though the girls get fucked by other men. Then on the other hand there is Exchange Student, where pretty much nothing happens (and the writing makes no reason for jealousy) yet it has the tag.

Then again, if jealousy is the critical factor, then what if the "mc" doesn't know about his/her significant other having sex with others = can't be jealous? Then that's not ntr, because it's simply cheating. Right? For example, there is this game called Adventurous Couple where the mc is more than okay with her girl fucking with everyone which means he is not jealous because he wants it, and when the girl fucks behind his back he just can't be jealous because he doesn't know about it. So why the ntr tag? (didn't read all the text of the game)
Yes, cheating can be called ntr based on other sites' descriptions, but then why do we have the cheating tag here as its own if they both mean the same thing?

Then there is the cuckold thing which is kind of ntr but not all ntr is cuck... For example, I'm okay with basic ntr but hate cuckold. But there is no tag for that so I can't blacklist it.

For another missing tag, what about those who don't like ntr but would play a game if the ntr is optional? They can't decide whether the game's ntr means it's forced or just optional and based on this I'm sure there are a lot of ppl who don't even try the games out because they don't want to risk seeing something they don't want (even though they might like the non-ntr part of the story).

And I could also stretch this ntr thing to the netori part and also why is ntr only when the mc's girls have jealousy causing interactions with men only? I've heard occasions where a girl become lesbian and left his man for a girl. If that would happen IRL that would be MUCH more embarrassing for the guy.

So yeah... this site's ntr tag is messed up and the worst part about this is that there is pretty much no chance of changing it. When I considered requesting this change I could only see rejected posts as if the admins care more about adding "humor" and "groping" tags than specific ntr related tags (which could end some of the ntr hateposts) and I couldn't even find the accepted post about this change (and only the netori tag appears in the planned tags post which is like the least significant).

Labeling games as just "ntr" would be like if you would only put "sexual content" as the only tag. Which could mean ANYTHING.

So please if someone with power reads this, please make a change because it's just annoying!

 

[fitgirlbestgirl]

NTR is just a tag that has developed into a warning for overly sensitive people that can't stand to see their pixel waifu next to another man or even woman. For people who actually like NTR in whatever form, the tag is pretty useless. It would help to split the tag up into different varieties and have a distinction between tags that have a significant amount of content or are just one-offs, but none of this will happen.

 

[Rafster]

NTR is just a tag that has developed into a warning for overly sensitive people that can't stand to see their pixel waifu next to another man or even woman. For people who actually like NTR in whatever form, the tag is pretty useless. It would help to split the tag up into different varieties and have a distinction between tags that have a significant amount of content or are just one-offs, but none of this will happen.

I agree, it's almost the same problem with the gay tag. It's just a warning for a single scene showing 2 guys kissing, but it's useless for those of us who look for games with a full m/m route at least.

 

[woody554]

NTR is just a tag that has developed into a warning for overly sensitive people...

nah. it's just that ntr lovers keep fighting each other about what is and isn't 'real' ntr. no tag system can possibly hope to sort out that kind of a can of worms. there's as many shades of ntr as there are ntr lovers, and nobody else gets what the difference is. as proven by OP.

 

[gunderson]

Tags are an inherently imprecise science with a site as big as this. Here's another fun example of a tag that's often super unhelpful: incest.

Is it incest if the sex is between step-relatives and/or adoptive relatives only? Is it incest if the actual game itself contains no incest but there's a link to a LewdPatcher patch that adds incest? Is it incest if there will eventually be incest (if the game's development even lasts that long), but the dev hasn't actually included any yet? Does it count if two sisters are involved in a threesome but don't actually interact with each other sexually?

The solution? Look at the game, see what the description says, decide if you want to download it, if you do get it then play some of the game and see if it tickles your fancy. Personally, I think it's better if everything that fits the incest tag under any definition relevant to the game's current content gets tagged, and I think that's probably the answer for NTR too. Tag anything that might count, let people sort out the specifics themselves.

It also doesn't help that peoples' definitions of NTR seem to depend on both what they personally find hot and what they personally find gross, so I very much doubt there's a solution that will make everybody happy. In such a situation, I recommend finding a compromise.

 

[Carpe Stultus]

The problem with the tags is that they get applied wrong most of the time, either because the uploaders have no clue and only listen to a certain group of players, which is a mistake in itself, or because devs don't even know what what is, happens often when they were a part of this com here before they started developing.

On top of these things, tags often get applied for content that isn't even in the VN yet..which actually violates the tag rules, if they didn't change them yet.

 

[Dagoth Urgers]

The ntr tag problem is solely with the people who search for it. It gives 23 pages of results out of 326. Certainly doesn't seem "useless" to me.

But hey, don't let me get in the way of you feeling persecuted by a simple boolean value not having the same information density as a synopsis. I'm on your side there: I think you should be persecuted too.

 

[aattss]

When I search for futa content with the futa/trans tag, most of the content is like, less than 10% of the sex scenes involve futa. Some tags just aren't that useful for stuff like searching for certain types of content. I'd suggest finding some sort of x fetish recommendation thread.

 

[おい！]

 

[Pr0GamerJohnny]

The ntr tag problem is solely with the people who search for it. It gives 23 pages of results out of 326. Certainly doesn't seem "useless" to me.

But hey, don't let me get in the way of you feeling persecuted by a simple boolean value not having the same information density as a synopsis. I'm on your side there: I think you should be persecuted too.

it's not an issue of a boolean value having low information density if the boolean value is often wrong.

And we all know why this is- if a game has anything resembling (to use the western vernacular); wifesharing, swinging, cuckolding, voyeurism of a potential love interest with another, and DOESNT have an ntr tag, the weeaboos come out in force on the game's thread demanding the addition.

Make no mistake, Im not throwing out the term 'weeaboo' haphazardly- this is a cultural porn difference: In an american context, watching a girl having sex with someone else when shes not your gf/intimate partner is meaningless, itd be described as voyeurism, nothing more. Consensually watching your gf/wife fuck someone else (with no humiliation, aka alpha husband) would be hotwifing or swinging, and nonconsensually watching the same (or consensually with humilation) would be cuckolding.

There are already existing labels for most of these things, but they're often not used in favor of a singular NTR for the same reason listed in the 2nd paragraph above. It will likely stay that way as long as 1) the majority of players on f95 hold strong feelings against, 2) the mods sympathies/moderation style primarily reflects that majority.

 

[Ophanim]

Yeah, tags are usually quite useless, because even when they're correctly applied (which they often aren't) they don't indicate to what extent the tagged thing is present. As Rafster said, gay and lesbian are terrible for this. This is a well-established, blanket problem with f95zone's tag system.

As others have said, please just use recommendation threads. They're strictly better than tags in almost every way, but could really stand to be better advertized as an option.

 

[Segnbora]

NTR is an utterly useless tag that causes endless and pointless bickering in countless threads.

There should be a netorare tag that is only applied to actual netorare, for people who seek (or avoid) that fetish. We have English-language tags for everything else (cheating, swinging, etc.) that the tag could possibly cover. Precision regarding the "cheating" tag ("NPC cheating" or whatever) would be fine. But about 5% of the site's users actually know how F95 wants the NTR tag to be used, and the other 95% ruin it for everyone.

And yes, "gay" and "lesbian" are even less useful. Just tag games like story sites do: MF, MM, FF, MFF, MMF, MTG, FTG, and so forth. I rather think people who want games without dicks would love to know which games actually don't have dicks, rather than every single game in which two women get it on.

 

[Yngling]

Yeah, tags are usually quite useless, because even when they're correctly applied (which they often aren't) they don't indicate to what extent the tagged thing is present

Exactly.

My proposal would be to have two tag systems:
- Tags that are preferred by the player
- Tags that are avoided by the player

The player/user then could mark tags in his preferences screen as either.

In that case, a game which has only one gay scene would not show up as a preferred tag but would show up as an avoid tag.

For lesbian, it's more complicated because there are plenty games which are basically male MC centered but where there are a lot of scenes where love interests are involved with each other, with or without the MC.

And then there is a problem with games which have different routes, like NTR optional games. When there is a dedicated NTR route and a dedicated harem route it should probably show as both preferred and avoid. When a game has only an NTR route, it would depend on the player's settings.

 

[Bevnkev]

On this site the definition that matters is the one defined by this site
see
Tags Rules And List [Updated 2021-05-02]
defines NTR as
" NTR [Designed to cause jealousy by having the romantic interest involved with someone other than the MC.] "

So other NPCs could have relationships as long as the MC is not jealous.
Have to assume it means a jealous MC as defined by the developer/development team - not as defined by any of the players immersing or inserting themselves (who are very unlikely to all end up with the same result)

 

[ThtsMyScrtCapImAlwysHorny]

On this site the definition that matters is the one defined by this site
see
Tags Rules And List [Updated 2021-05-02]
defines NTR as
" NTR [Designed to cause jealousy by having the romantic interest involved with someone other than the MC.] "

So other NPCs could have relationships as long as the MC is not jealous.
Have to assume it means a jealous MC as defined by the developer/development team - not as defined by any of the players immersing or inserting themselves (who are very unlikely to all end up with the same result)

That's just it though - the site's definition is useless, as it requires us to psychoanalyze the dev. If a game makes 90% of players feel jealous, but the dev didn't intend that, then according to the site's definition it isn't NTR... but how are we to ever know that? Every other tag is about the content that's objectively there, not a subjective interpretation of the intention behind it. This one should be too. Furthermore, it results in tons of mistagging, as it leaves out NTR stories where the protagonist is the one being taken rather than the one being taken from, which under the current tagging regime get the much less precise "cheating" tag. And before someone says that's how it should be - these stories often have "NTR" or "netorare" literally in the title and come from the culture that invented the term, so I'll take their word for it over yours thanks.

 

[baloneysammich]

That's just it though - the site's definition is useless ...

This is a whole can of worms and there's plenty of awareness. And anyway, nothing is gonna happen until the tag system overhaul (Coming Soon™).

 

[anne O'nymous]

That's just it though - the site's definition is useless, as it requires us to psychoanalyze the dev. If a game makes 90% of players feel jealous, [...]

Beeeeeep ! I stop you there. When the second sentence is so wrong, there's really no need to goes further.

What the player feel is totally irrelevant here. It's MC's feelings that matters. And this, it's supposed to be obvious through the dialog and story. Netorare isn't about making you (player) jealous, it's about depicting a MC that is/feel humiliated because the girl he love is openly cheating, or stolen from him.

As for the psychoanalyze, what to say ? It's a virtual character, having virtual sex, in a fiction, with another virtual character, that happen to not be the MC, and obviously even less the player. If someone is jealous because of this, it's him that should see a therapist, and as soon as possible.
You can feel sad for the MC, because your empathy make you sympathize with him. But being jealous yourself, no, it mean that something is wrong with you.

 

[Segnbora]

You'd be shocked at how many misguided souls disagree with you. I was certainly taken aback. "I'm being NTR'd if the character is." Well, are you having incestual sex if the character is? No? Then [sentence deleted so I don't get a time out, but you know what I'm going to say].

 

[ThtsMyScrtCapImAlwysHorny]

Beeeeeep ! I stop you there. When the second sentence is so wrong, there's really no need to goes further.

Well, you're certainly right about that. I'll take irony for 500, Alex.

• Netorare [Designed to cause jealousy by having the romantic interest involved with someone other than the MC.

"Designed to cause jealousy". Not "depicts jealousy". According to this site, it IS about the player. However, you're right that it shouldn't be, that that isn't the actual meaning of the word. I think you came in here not understanding what the discussion was actually about, because you're trying to dunk on someone who ultimately agrees with you.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Well, you're certainly right about that. I'll take irony for 500, Alex.

Sarcasm is like jokes, if you have to explain it, then it's lame.

"Designed to cause jealousy". Not "depicts jealousy". According to this site, it IS about the player.

And right bellow there's the definition of oral sex: "Sexual act involving the stimulation of the genitalia using the mouth."
Please, tell me your secret, oh great master, how, as player, do you achieve to have your genitalia stimulated by a game mouth ?