Thoughts about the industry

[Crell]

Disclaimer: I needed to rant a bit, which is the reason this wall of text came to be. If you're completely fine with the spot western adult games are in right now, don't read it. You might come to hate me for being a pretentious and overbearing asshole. If you're not, feel free to share your own gripes. I'd love to read different opinions on the industry as a whole.

Actual text:
In my eyes, even the best western adult games out there are quite mediocre when compared to other media. The fact that the whole industry is a niche market makes real advancements almost impossible. We're stuck with stuff like DMD or BB. Yes, I know those have huge fan bases. But why is that? Both games are really not that exciting. DMD is about an oblivious daughter that thinks french kissing her dad is completely normal. Seriously, this is BS. Don't get me wrong, I'm turned on by it because I'm into incest. Same goes with BB, which has at least 1 semi-serious plot with Lisa. And even that one semi-serious plot is as believeable as Donald Trump becoming POTUS. But that's the problem: It's only because of that fetish that I'm into those games. Without a knack for family fun, I wouldn't touch those games.

I want real games with real and believeable stories, not just fap material. A story where, should your mom walk in on you while you're sleeping with your sister, she would freak out, not join you and suck your dick. A story with consequences, where incest leads to a family breaking up or worse. A story where the people feel like people, not just some sexcrazed maniacs. A story where getting knocked up by a relative is a huge concern, not some joyous moment.

"Bro: Hey Sis, I know you're a virgin, but how about we fuck, even though we never even talked about it and it really should freak you out I brought up the subject in the first place?
Sis: Okay, sure. Here, let me spread my labia for you so you can enter me easily. Also, come inside me!"

That's what most incest games are like. If this was realistic, humanity would've died out aeons ago due to inbreeding.

Of course, there's regular visual novels. Some of them are great and have astounding storylines. Kara no Shoujo for example is one of the most intriguing stories I've ever read. But those are exceedingly rare. Most VNs contain anime tit monsters with stereotyped characters. Meek/bland male characters and girls that like being raped. How....exciting. Meh. Well it's tailored towards the japanese audience, which is okay of course. But I am not japanese. I don't like plate-sized eyes or 150cm tall, 40kg weighing girls with GG+ cups.

So I was searching for alternatives and found them in western adult games. Sadly, that industry is still in the fledgling stage and probably won't ever grow out of it as long as the developers are openly prosecuted by the moral police.

I wrote dozens of stories about incest that were way more believeable than anything the adult game community has come up with. Stories including drama and seduction. Two things I somehow don't encounter in western adult games. It's baffling, really, because the lead up to sex is at least as interesting and sometimes even more turning on than the act itself. Just look at DMD. It's so popular because it creates the illusion of seduction paired with suspense. But it ultimately fails at creating a seduction scenario.

This is all about games that try to be serious of course. Games like "My Legacy" or "The Artifact" are great in their own right. But those don't try to be something they're not. A game where you become your own grandfather and possibly the father of your older sister doesn't pretend to be a serious story. Same goes for a game where your dick talks to you. And that's okay. Those games fullfil their purpose as comedic fap material. But that's just not enough for me. I want more. More seriousness, more credibility, more drama, more seduction, more emotions. There are a few great games in the making that could possibly fullfil those criteria. Daughter for Dessert comes to mind. But that's still at least a year or two away from being anything but a demo.

Okay, that's enough. If you read all of this, well....don't blame me for wasting your time. It was your decision.

 

[Ignazzio]

Interesting but honestly it's hard to even compare western industry with Japanese. Japan has a normal adult gaming market with all privilages of normal advertisment. Western countries don't have a real industry due to porn being banned from mainstream. It all depends on a viewpoint and tradition and western countries have no traditions except for censorship. Nowadays all games are on Patreon, but seriously is that even an industry? Most of creators are Russians cuz you need to live in a poor country to afford living there with money out of Patreon. Even the most successful devs like Dark Silver or MrDots are just a couple of guys who were able to take over the niche and their games are nothing in comparison to the best of Japanese. In Japan there are real corporations which can develop a title worth of an AAA status in erotic development but Visual Novels and manga style is their tradition so they keep them in such aesthethic. With how Patreon works I have no hopes for real AAA erotic game as it requires fund impossible for westerners. As for an incest - It's not my fetish. I hate it mostly due to the reasons you mentioned. It's always so unrealistic in most of the games that I just can't stand it. And due to the nature of Patreon I doubt we will get anything serious on that matter as devs have to condense story to reach audience. Real games where incest would make sense are only Japanaese as for now in my opinion. It's not so popular there as they pref step-, childhood friend, but there are plenty of titles. It's worth to notice they're almost always brother-sister or grandfather-granddaughter which is non-existent here.
Overall: It's my personal erotic dream to play an erotic game which has normal, complex relations with plenty of characters of both sex who can affect each other the way they do in live. But it's not doable without a huge team and funds 10 times bigger than those of DMD or BB. That's impossible for our creators so we have to wait for a better future.

 

[Crell]

Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. The "industry" is not able to grow thanks to moral prosecution. I wish it were different of course. I don't think it'll happen, though.

Anyway, apart from AAA productions, there's also the problem with the stories. I don't know why western adult game writers are so inept at coming up with a believeable story. Even the non-incest stories are mostly "Hey, let's fuck, okay?"-material. There's no seduction whatsoever in any of those games. It's like the creators never even talked to a member of the opposite sex before. When I go on dates I don't think about sex all the time, unlike 100% of western adult game MCs. I try to have a good time with my date. The focus is so fixated on sex that it takes away all the build up, all the tension, all the erotic innuendos. Honestly, most of those games feel like they're aimed at 13yo pubertary turds with power fantasies and not at adult males.

The quality of WAGs would increase tremendously, should the creators decide to put more work into their stories than their renders. There's TONS of erotica out there with great plots and believeable character progression. All they need to do is copy them. That'd be enough. But instead we get 16yo girls who let their father massage their boobs. Because back pain....yeah.

 

[Not Me]

Crell-
I appreciate your taking the time to write. Before I write the stuff which is obvious but needs to be said, let me ask -- where can we find the erotica you've written? I mean that seriously. If you've written good stuff, I'm sure a number of us would like to see it.

Ignazzio touched on the real reason you aren't finding high quality games out there. First, it's really, really freaking hard. Writing a great story is critical, of course, but it's not nearly enough. You also have to have serious art skills, serious programming skills, and can turn those into a compelling game. Skill with soundtracks would be a huge help too. And putting it all together is actually pretty similar to being a movie director.

So. Say you're the one person in millions that has all those skills. How much of your time is it going to take to do all those tasks and create your masterpiece? If you have a day job, it could take you 1-2 years, easy.

Why would you dedicate enough of your lifetime to do that? Because it's your dream to get this out there as a hobby? Great, but only some tiny fraction of the people with the skills to do this will. For the money? Ignazzio pointed to the real issue -- even Patreon doesn't really give someone in the western world enough compensation for the time they've spent. If you've got those skills, you're making more per hour in a day job. And really, it takes a team of people to have that wide a variety of skills. So divide that hourly rate by 2 or more.

But since there is money to be made, people in less rich countries are making content. Or, people start a game, and after a few releases realize it's not worth the time they're putting into it to continue. Or, you have the rare game that hits and makes a serious amount of money per month (I'm picturing $5K and up).

The odds just aren't great. So, the only real way to ensure that level of content exists is to dedicate yourself to making it.

 

[Benn Swagger]

Why !? You want to know WHY !?

1. Everyone in here, especially who pass age 25 years old members, whom already taste the sweet and bitter of life, had the same question as yours. So it's not a new story of how you feel and indeed it's a just reason.

BUT ...

2. Not everyone is gifted in literature. Even on Hollywood drama movie, there's only a few movie get approval by critics. We're talking about big money story writer. Now we talking about amateur porn games developer, who usually create everything single handedly ... it's a tall order for perfection.

3. Handling coding/scripting, creating a story then turn to dialog for more than 10.000 lines, selecting/create character model model more than 5 character, animating it, create environment, render more than 1.000 picture (for VN), setting Patreon, setting Roadmap ... man, too much work for 1 person can handle which can influence the product quality.

4. I won't talk about non-VN games as what you ask is a serious story which usually VN games. The creator have freedom to choose what they want. An easy cheesy story or serious but still cheesy, or a reality story. Problem with reality story, is that you have to convince reader of the reasoning. Incest in reality/IRL is something that 99,99999% won't happening, so it's really hard to make Incest story with reality reasoning.

5. You won't understand until you try to create your own story. I'm not against you, but I dare you to make one that you think it's up to your standard. Lemme give you a hint ... It's fucking damn hard. Why ? Cause I had the same feeling as you, and right now on making my own Incest novel before turn to games, and try as hard as I can to make the reasoning close to reality. I didn't say I failed, but I'm getting a lot of stuck/brain-death moment, story progression is slow as fuck.

6. After experiencing myself with that, I come to compromise when other developer creating cheesy porn games. Real serious erotica games is hard to made, let alone it won't be popular as you want. Also, real life sex life had more NTR theme than fantasy. Because in reality, not everyone want to share their male partner, so all you can do is watching another sexy female character being fuck by her partner. NOPE, I believe majority players in here want they became the sex machine in games, conquering all the ladies, as that the Male natural characteristic. When we can't do it on real life, we expect doing it in fantasy land.

 

[Crell]

I don't release the stuff I write. It's relaxing to dive into the story of another person and dictate their life, while completely forgetting your own sorrows. That's why I write mostly for myself. Also, I like to write very dark stories. For example the last thing I wrote was about a demisexual girl pressed by her best friend into talking about and experiencing sex. It's mostly psychological and quite fucked up because MC develops a dependency disorder thanks to her best friend's pressure and her own demisexuality. Another version of the same MC gets pregnant after sleeping with her twin brother. She loses the child and ends up in a psychiatric ward after attempting suicide

I don't write stuff that'd appeal to the masses. But as I said, there's tons of light-hearted erotica perfectly suited for adult games out there.

As for your other points, I agree with you. A person that can program, write and draw is just as believable as the stories most WAG devs come up with. But that doesn't mean we have to settle for scrums, does it?

I don't know the solution to the problem either. I just wanted to write something, I guess.

@Benn82

I get what you mean. When I first started writing, I hit a deadlock more often than I hit the bars during my college days. Especially incest stories are almost impossible to write naturally. That's why there's always a special feature in an incestuous relationship. I took my inspiration from a case in Germany, where pair of siblings had 4 children. The girl (at the start of their relationship only 16 years old) had a dependent personality disorder, while her brother was just too overprotective of his sister. In the end he even got a vasectomy, so he could be with his sister.

That's also the thing: The best stories are rooted in reality.

 

[Bip]

That's what most incest games are like. If this was realistic, humanity would've died out aeons ago due to inbreeding.

I call them FAP & Go :closedeyesmile:
- Hey mom, we fuck?
- Hey, I'm your mom!
- Yes, but you're hot!
- Ah? OK! You want my ass?

That said, despite the fact that even the good stories are not realistic, it would be hard for a game, if everyone jumped out the window or had a gun on the temple at the end of the game.
When I play a game, I want to have a good time, not to feel like reading the newspaper. Then I don't need it to be realistic, just I would like some to be less stupid, with better built stories.

Most VNs contain anime tit monsters with stereotyped characters. Meek/bland male characters and girls that like being raped. How....exciting. Meh. Well it's tailored towards the japanese audience, which is okay of course. But I am not japanese. I don't like plate-sized eyes or 150cm tall, 40kg weighing girls with GG+ cups.

Again, if I want to see cellulite or sagging breasts, I just need to go ringing at the neighbor's house.
It's a game, so I ask it to allow me to get away from the ordinary and the everyday.
Now, I admit that some people let themselves go to caricature. Sometimes it's OK, sometimes it's too much, sometimes it's ridiculous. But among Japanese too, we go easily from the petite girl to the MILF totally exaggerated.

 

[Crell]

Hey, I don't want adult games to become shakespearian or proustian. Least of all kafkaesque. And I also want to see young, attractive girls. That's what we're here for after all.

But...I'd love to have at least a modicum of romance and structure in a story. FAP 'n' Go's are well and all. But if that's all there is....it feels kind of lacklustre, don't you think?

 

[OctoPriest]

It's worth taking time constraints into account when considering the current market as well. With a Japanese based game, they're sitting down to make a game in its entirety. Start to finish, one large narrative. With Western games (speaking with regards to Patreon titles), people are often expecting monthly output. That's an incredible strain on the developer both story and scripting-wise. Each little snippet has to be a start-finish, chapter segment, rather than just flowing towards a natural progression point that the developer might have initially had in mind, but had to now alter due to time constraints. Things like that, limitations on funding, being more immediately beholden mid-project to your funding source with regards to what the content and direction of the game is... all of that takes its toll as well. Censorship is a HUGE issue, don't get me wrong. US laws in particular present a significant hurdle for marketing and development of a game. But the platform by which the Western games are currently made itself is a bit challenging as well.

 

[Bip]

Hey, I don't want adult games to become shakespearian or proustian. Least of all kafkaesque. And I also want to see young, attractive girls. That's what we're here for after all.

Phew, you reassure me! :closedeyesmile:

But...I'd love to have at least a modicum of romance and structure in a story. FAP 'n' Go's are well and all. But if that's all there is....it feels kind of lacklustre, don't you think?

Yep! I'm totally OK with that!

 

[The-real-Vastitas]

Games that do start slow, have a build up, good art and above all a well written plot in advance are gems that are hard to find, in most cases they have little to no support especially in the beginning and therefore are often abandoned leading to another easier attempt which is a bubbly, funny, fantasy game which dives right in in order to get the support needed to stay alive and relevant...
demand and supply really...your opinion...my opinion...are not shared by the majority better to laugh than rant about it. It's a good thing you write your own stories which you should share...

For example the last thing I wrote was about a demisexual girl pressed by her best friend into talking about and experiencing sex. It's mostly psychological and quite fucked up because MC develops a dependency disorder thanks to her best friend's pressure and her own demisexuality. Another version of the same MC gets pregnant after sleeping with her twin brother. She loses the child and ends up in a psychiatric ward after attempting suicide

sounds a hell of a lot more interesting to me than BB or DMD even though incest isn't something I am into to begin with I could tolerate it if one actually bothers to explain via good arguments why it happens.

 

[clades]

The adult gaming industry in the west is going to continue being a dumpster fire as long as Patreon is the only game in town for getting paid.

At the end of the day, there is a limit to how much effort people are going to put into a game that is basically guaranteed to barely make any money. Why waste time making an adult premium product when your effort is not going to pay off compared to a similar, but non-adult, product?

Right now, there are no solid long-term prospects in the adult gaming industry. You are better off milking Patreon-based projects as long as possible (while likely still holding a full-time job) than any alternative, as any alternative isn't sustainable for people who don't want to live at the poverty level.

 

[anne O'nymous]

I'll respond with a question: Why do you expect western porn games to be better than western porn movies ?

To find good western porn, you need to go back in history, where there's amazing books, or look at European comics. Then you'll find everything, from softcore (Manara) to fetishism (Serpieri), and form regular porn (Hugdebert) to full BDSM (Von Götha). But take a look at the comics section here...
So, perhaps that my question should be: why do you expect western porn games to be better than western fapers ?

Don't take me wrong, I'm one of those fapers, so I'll not denigrate them. It's just that we're feed with either asian porn or cheap western porn. Even when we know that there's better, we don't really seek for it ; I know this for sure, since it took me some time to remember the names of those four fabulous artists who filled both my youth and sex life with so much lust and fantasy.
And like creators are not different than us, they make game with what they know. Take one of them, feed him with Sade and Von Götha for a year or two, and you'll end with a fucking good corruption game. Just because all come from the imagination of the author, and if you don't feed it with quality contents, then you'll never have quality result.

 

[arpaschad]

It seems like MOST people in Western countries and those countries influenced heavily by said Western countries just want the "High speed, low drag" approach even in the sex game market... there are only a handful-ish number of persons who desire a "polished, well written AAA level" WESTERN game and most of the potential costumers are just there for a quick wank...unless you want to go the "Weaboo route" and play strictly Japanese games and maybe be so dedicated to even learn Nihongo just to play said Japanese games...

So the guys at Patreon know their target market...there may be a time that they would really like to create a more "refined" porn game but on their own they could only go so far...like what the previous posters above me mentioned, Japan has the wriggling space of commercial advertisement and almost bottomless funding...that is why we see Eroge companies like Alicesoft, Illusion, JAST to name a few of a larger list...

until we see somebody with a lot of funds and a pair of titanium-coated cojones to make an equivalent company for the Western market we still have to make do with Patreon WIP games...

I don't know about it with some Western countries...they show blood, gore, mutilations and decapitations and all they can get is a rated M for mature and light tap on the knuckles...show something resembling female genitalia even in a non sexual media and some outfits are going batshit crazy...maybe it's the difference in culture as someone before me have said before...

MAYBE that's why we don't see some AAA quality Western porn games...if ever we see one it's as common as finding Hannibal Lecter in a vegan conference...