Thoughts on Current Trends in Incest Game/Content Development

[Only4You]

I'm a big fan of incest content. Father-daugher, Mother-son, brother-sister, cousins - I like them all (I excluded homosexual relations because I'm a strictly heterosexual guy). And you would think I'm lucky because, recently there has been such big boom of incest games that one could hardly count all of them. But what I find disappointing is that almost all of them seem to derive from the same basic formula. There are many possible themes/ideas that are being overlooked by the devs when it comes to incest. I am not a content developer, so please forgive me if I'm being cocky by saying what could be done better. I'm just stating my own opinion. I'd like to point out some issues -

• My first issue, and this is a big one, because it is something most games try to ignore (because it is easier that way), is that, just because two family members are in an incestuous relationship, doesn't mean they fall out of their original familial relationship. And if they do so, it can hardly be called incest, because, if suddenly a sister starts seeing his brother as boyfriend, and the brother sees her as his girlfriend, and all their interactions only reflect that relationship, where is the incest? Because their true relationships matter no more from the player's perspective. Also, a mother could never be her son's girlfriend/wife/lover - that's just stupid. But that doesn't stop her from having sexual attraction towards her son. The point I'm trying to make is that a good incest story must be able to portray both the original relationship and the sexual attraction and possible conflicts between the two. And also, when the mother just shouts, "Oh my son! Oh my baby boy! bla bla bla" while having sex with her son, that doesn't count. She needs to show that through her interaction with his son. Sex between mother and son is certainly going to be different from normal sex between a couple. I've rarely seen a game pull that off. And it seems that Patreon's policy has exacerbated this situation - it's hard to portray a character faithfully when she could be either your mother or your landlady
• The setting that so many games use - Son/brother/father meet their counterparts/love interests after a while and fall for them. While, this is certainly an intriguing scenario, I don't understand why so many games need to copy the same/similar formula, while there are so many other possibilities. A boy may start to think differently about his sister/mother when he hits puberty. A mother may start to think differently about his son when his husband leaves/dies. Twins/cousins growing up together may have inherent attractions towards each other from childhood that they only discover after some incidence. Etc. Etc.
• The main character who is often a male character always seems to take the first initiative, why's that? Wouldn't it be cool if my mother/sister/daughter confessed their attraction instead of me confessing that I'm a horn-dog? The MC often turns out to be some lewd character, without any backbone, who only cares about sex. Also, most incest games put very little effort in character development, which makes it hard to care about the characters. I mean, you don't feel like a girl is your sister, unless the story establishes that via some interaction/past history. Only assigning a label "Sister" to a girl, makes no difference. Just like dressing like a bat doesn't make you Batman... Also, to be your sister, she has to be a human girl first with her own thoughts, feelings, preferences and passions. Some devs forget to put even the basic human elements in the characters, which greatly hurts the players' sense of reality.
• Incest stories could be spiced up by introducing other sexual elements but few games willing to take them to the level of extreme. Although incest is a genre in itself, all other genres of adult stories such as pregnancy, triangle love, cheating, rape, homosexuality could be introduced into incest. Though some of these elements can be found in most games, they fear to take them to the extreme. For example I haven't found a game where a father and daughter/ brother and sister have a child together and later have to hide the true parentage. No games showed a mother falling for both of her sons or two brothers falling for their sisters. Another thing, "these violent delights have violent ends" - show me a good incest story that ends in tragedy, which seems to be the most likely outcome of incest.

 

[Avaron1974]

Incest has never been a fetish i've got into nor find any sexual pleasure in but I have played a few games that have characters in I like.

Sisterly Lust, Parental Love, Blooming Love, Love Ribbons and a yuri incest game who's title I forget but had a couple of twisted bad endings but really sweet good endings.

Mainly avoid the majority of them because characters are generic and stories are utter shit. As soon as you see the oh so overused shower spying, sleep rape, mother seeing son that has a big dick (for reasons) and getting instantly horny because that's how it works and the min numbingly annoying plot of 2 sisters, one older that hates MC and one younger that loves him. MC also has to be a child because reasons.

I throw in bonus points for masturbation during shower spying scenes where the MC walks up to the shower, starts wanking then gets surprised when they see him ..... STOP WITH THE PAINFULLY SHIT WRITING.

I tend to enjoy games where I can at least understand the MC if not relate to. Most of them being male instantly kills that straight away but add on to that the way they act being moronic as all hell. As i said, they tend to be kids that want to fuck everything and that's it, that's their character and that's as far as they ever go.

I need a good story and good characters and both of those are missing from a lot of incest games.

 

[Only4You]

Incest has never been a fetish i've got into nor find any sexual pleasure in but I have played a few games that have characters in I like.

Sisterly Lust, Parental Love, Blooming Love, Love Ribbons and a yuri incest game who's title I forget but had a couple of twisted bad endings but really sweet good endings.

Mainly avoid the majority of them because characters are generic and stories are utter shit. As soon as you see the oh so overused shower spying, sleep rape, mother seeing son that has a big dick (for reasons) and getting instantly horny because that's how it works and the min numbingly annoying plot of 2 sisters, one older that hates MC and one younger that loves him. MC also has to be a child because reasons.

I throw in bonus points for masturbation during shower spying scenes where the MC walks up to the shower, starts wanking then gets surprised when they see him ..... STOP WITH THE PAINFULLY SHIT WRITING.

I tend to enjoy games where I can at least understand the MC if not relate to. Most of them being male instantly kills that straight away but add on to that the way they act being moronic as all hell. As i said, they tend to be kids that want to fuck everything and that's it, that's their character and that's as far as they ever go.

I need a good story and good characters and both of those are missing from a lot of incest games.

Exactly my thoughts. It's a shame that many adult games with good storyline and believable characters are being developed and yet few seem to care that incest games should have these qualities as well. I don't know, is it because the idea of incest so unrealistic that nobody takes it too seriously? But then, most adult games have some unrealistic characteristic associated with them.

 

[Volta]

For me i can forgive a few of these faults but you're right ,far too many fall into all of these categories, a little more inventiveness would be nice, i'd be willing to take the mother out entirely if it meant we could have an MC out of his teens, or if it meant substituting in an "evil stepmom" sort of character who is a younger gold digger on the Dad. I'd also like a Dad character who is actually a decent guy, not an ass, dead, a cockblock or a stepdad from hell, honestly why not having him as a nice guy but have the parents divorced with both sharing the children, something that is more than common IRL but isn't the case in incest games. Family life can be complicated but like you say we always seem to have the three kids, 2F 1M arrangement, why not some stepsisters of a fairly good age gap or something, just shake it up a little.

 

[Felicityskye]

A lot of amateur devs who choose to develop VNs/games with incest as the main theme, are usually bandwagon creators and or first time creators trying to cash in on potential easy quick cash due to it being the hot trend. That's the main reason most VNs/games that focus on incest are shit. Those creators just follow the same mold/formula that has worked in the past, because they know that is what is "good enough" to get a handful of suckers to give them money. It would be no different if instead the main trend was "babysitters" or "schoolgirls", we would then be seeing a ton more of poorly written and developed babysitter or schoolgirl themed VNs/games.

People are free to spend their disposable income however they want, but they are part of the problem by supporting mediocre trash, which perpetuates the creation of more mediocre trash.

 

[DarthSeduction]

My first issue, and this is a big one, because it is something most games try to ignore (because it is easier that way), is that, just because two family members are in an incestuous relationship, doesn't mean they fall out of their original familial relationship. And if they do so, it can hardly be called incest, because, if suddenly a sister starts seeing his brother as boyfriend, and the brother sees her as his girlfriend, and all their interactions only reflect that relationship, where is the incest? Because their true relationships matter no more from the player's perspective. Also, a mother could never be her son's girlfriend/wife/lover - that's just stupid.

I don't agree with this perspective at all. How do you behave differently with your siblings vs a close friend? Personally, for me, there's no difference except that the sibling has known me longer and therefore likely knows me better. The only difference between how I would treat a girlfriend and how I would treat my sister is the sexual, or as you put them, girlfriend relationship things.

With a mother there are some complications, but if I'm honest I feel the opposite of you. I think maternal incest focuses too much on the mother being the mother. I often find the relationship, the way they can't stop treating you like their little boy, emasculating. Should there be a bit of evidence of a relationship, sure, but it's supposed to be perverted. The mother should be giving up the power over you (unless you're a masochist) she has, and so, the relationship should change.

The setting that so many games use - Son/brother/father meet their counterparts/love interests after a while and fall for them. While, this is certainly an intriguing scenario, I don't understand why so many games need to copy the same/similar formula, while there are so many other possibilities. A boy may start to think differently about his sister/mother when he hits puberty. A mother may start to think differently about his son when his husband leaves/dies. Twins/cousins growing up together may have inherent attractions towards each other from childhood that they only discover after some incidence. Etc. Etc.

Because there is a natural psychological block that develops in children between the toddler and puberty stage that prohibits them from developing such feelings by happenstance. This means that the easiest way to handwave the feelings they are developing is to separate people during that time. There are also complexes like Electra and Oedipus complex which can develop, but these are rare. The issue with these being, it isn't realistic for the entire family to develop them. The other way to get over it is trauma. My own game depicts a violent rape and patricide, the trauma involved in that scene is what breaks the barrier between my twin characters. It doesn't break the barrier between them and their mother however.

Also, lets be real, most games don't explain it at all. The MC just all of the sudden wants to fuck his family.

he main character who is often a male character always seems to take the first initiative, why's that? Wouldn't it be cool if my mother/sister/daughter confessed their attraction instead of me confessing that I'm a horn-dog? The MC often turns out to be some lewd character, without any backbone, who only cares about sex. Also, most incest games put very little effort in character development, which makes it hard to care about the characters. I mean, you don't feel like a girl is your sister, unless the story establishes that via some interaction/past history. Only assigning a label "Sister" to a girl, makes no difference. Just like dressing like a bat doesn't make you Batman... Also, to be your sister, she has to be a human girl first with her own thoughts, feelings, preferences and passions. Some devs forget to put even the basic human elements in the characters, which greatly hurts the players' sense of reality.

This is so true. There are two reasons for this.

First, many MC are completely blank slates. They have nothing to offer anyone. Relationships are about give and take. As a result, they have to actively give something in order to get anything in return. If you make your characters with some more passive draw, say a career or hobby that attracts people in some way, then you're able to make your external characters more proactive. Maybe you're a track star, and the girl who really wants to excel at track and field comes to you for help and relationship blooms. Maybe you're a writer and this character is a fan of your work. Maybe you're some sort of hero, cop, paramedic, fireman, etc, and you've saved a character causing them to come after you. Another thing that can work is giving your MC a relationship for other characters to be covet. Maybe the little sister misses the way her brother used to dote on her, maybe the mother feels like she's being repalced, etc.

Second issue, however, is much worse. Poorly written characters. Most characters are just a collection of reactive traits. They don't have personal motivations of any kind. Even giving your MC something to go after isn't enough if the characters around him don't have the motivations to go after it. You need a character who wants to become or likes that your MC is a track star in order for a character to do anything with the fact that you are a track star. They have to want something. And your MC has to have it. The question is, is that something your MC passively has, athletic ability, artistic talent, relationship skills, etc, or something he has to actively obtain. If he's obtaining it it will always be him chasing her. If he already has it, she can finally chase him.

ncest stories could be spiced up by introducing other sexual elements but few games willing to take them to the level of extreme. Although incest is a genre in itself, all other genres of adult stories such as pregnancy, triangle love, cheating, rape, homosexuality could be introduced into incest. Though some of these elements can be found in most games, they fear to take them to the extreme. For example I haven't found a game where a father and daughter/ brother and sister have a child together and later have to hide the true parentage. No games showed a mother falling for both of her sons or two brothers falling for their sisters. Another thing, "these violent delights have violent ends" - show me a good incest story that ends in tragedy, which seems to be the most likely outcome of incest.

Agreed, with a caveat. Part of what makes incest popular is that beyond the incest itself, it is pretty vanilla as a kink. It doesn't need anything that might turn other people off. While I would like to see more sadist brothers with masochist little sisters, not everyone agrees with me. And even myself, while I like the sadistic angle of humiliation and orgasm denial, I don't like causing pain, and so if the person is more into that I'm out. Incest works because it's vanilla with a taboo swirl.

 

[Agent HK47]

Good thread, brings up lots a good points.

My first issue, and this is a big one, because it is something most games try to ignore (because it is easier that way), is that, just because two family members are in an incestuous relationship, doesn't mean they fall out of their original familial relationship.

This is something that bothers me as well, at least in some games. It doesn't bother me in games such as the ones you refer to in your next section, IE. siblings that meet up for the first time after a long time apart. If you suddenly meet your sexy, fully grown sister for the first time in 10 years and feel sexually attracted to her (like you point out, many games uses this) then it would be logical that you would think of her more in a way of a possible future mate/girlfriend, and not as the younger child you remember. Speaking purely in game logic of course.
In games where you never were seperated for long periods of time, or games where you just start to feel attracted to your sister out of the blue, then it would definately bother me, because there should be a much stronger bond between the siblings and thus make it harder to forget that they are actually your family.

The setting that so many games use - Son/brother/father meet their counterparts/love interests after a while and fall for them. While, this is certainly an intriguing scenario, I don't understand why so many games need to copy the same/similar formula, while there are so many other possibilities.

This is just an easy way of explaining why the player suddenly has a boner for his sister/mother/whatever. Its easier to go "Oh hey, I haven't seen my sister in 10 years. Daymn, she hot! I could smash that!" whereas it would require more effort to show an attraction between them slowly maturing and finally come to fruition in the game. It also makes it easier to disguise the game as the "landlady" thing, which is better for patreon.

The main character who is often a male character always seems to take the first initiative, why's that? Wouldn't it be cool if my mother/sister/daughter confessed their attraction instead of me confessing that I'm a horn-dog?

I agree completely. This is also the reason why I love Linda (the mother from "Milfy City") Not only is she hot, but she is the one who is acting like the predator; lusting for her own teenage son and trying hard to seduce him. More games should go for this.

Incest stories could be spiced up by introducing other sexual elements but few games willing to take them to the level of extreme. Although incest is a genre in itself, all other genres of adult stories such as pregnancy, triangle love, cheating, rape, homosexuality could be introduced into incest. Though some of these elements can be found in most games, they fear to take them to the extreme.

Again, I agree, but this is the part where many game developers starts to chicken out a little. Either they don't like a particular fetish, or they simply fear scaring away players by making the game too "extreme". Personally, I have my own game in the works, which might be released on here at some point. I am just doing it to humour myself, but it will feature both incest, non-con and impregnation. For me, the pregnancy has always added an extra "risk" factor to the incest genre, and I am always disappointed that most games try to avoid the subject. Thank god for japanese games, they are the lifeline I cling to in these times.

And to finish this out:

a mother could never be her son's girlfriend/wife/lover - that's just stupid.

Not really sure where you got this, but clearly you underestimate the sick nature of certain humans. There have been mothers throughout history, who has settled down with their sons as lovers/wives, its just that most people (understandably) dont accept such things, so most of the times such hookups remain secret. Even so, it still happens in modern times. I remember reading a story as recently as last year, about a mother who claimed to be in love with her teenage son and was expecting his child.
Rare, yes. Impossible, no.

 

[gunderson]

I think we're in a very different place right now than one where people can actually correct many of these issues. I'll try to take them in order

1) Characters don't maintain their familial relationships when they start dating in incest games.

Yep. Common. As I see it, this is a side-effect of the current state of incest games re: patches. Game authors can sort of fake up a familial-ish relationship between two characters at the start of their game even if they're not related (two people act like mother-son, brother-sister, father-daughter even if they're not, and that's quite common IRL as well) but once they start having sex it becomes extremely relevant to the writing whether they're actually brother and sister or just roommates as to whether or not they can go public with their relationship or how hard it is for them to break out of the mindset of treating each other like family. Since IRL there's no real functional problem with rommates dating, unlike siblings, the incest-ish tension (even when a patch is applied, because those patches rarely go in and sprinkle in extra scenes and confrontations specific to incest themselves) just goes away and never comes back. They can occasionally refer to it, but it simply goes so strongly against the story the author is actually writing (in which nobody gives a shit whether roommates date or not) that there isn't a way to make the original relationship sensible again if they aren't actually related and previously acted like stereotypical family members.

Side note: I think gender stuff might also be a big deal here. Lesbian games seem to have an easier time making sisters friends anyway even if they're blood relatives and dating, they seem less likely to suffer from the ban hammer, and some people swear by them. Personally, I don't get anything out of lesbian games and never play them because that ain't my genitals' scene, but this part may depend very strongly on whether or not the relationships are heterosexual.

2) Same formula why.

Cash grabs and hacks (in the writing sense). It works, it's easier to make a house-story work for a ren'py game designed with Daz3d images in mind, authors are risk-averse when it comes to making money, etc. There are exceptions, which I'm too lazy right now to list in any extensive fashion (The Company works differently, there are various games with the word 'Sister' in the title that do different stuff, Spaced Out is set, well, in space, ...), but if this is your biggest beef I would say that there are options for you even if they aren't the most common, depending on what you're looking for.

3) Why don't the chicks make the first move (assuming a male protagonist)?

A lot of this comes down to the same problems as the previous question, really (easier to follow the leader rather than innovate), but from a narrative point of view it kinda doesn't work so well in a game. The player is usually the agent of change. What is the player's role if the protagonist is the one being seduced and another character is taking all the risks? How do you express those changes to the player? How do you make it fun?

I won't say that nobody's done it. I recall a game from, like, a year ago (maybe it's still in deveopment?) where the player is a father whose daughter gets caught up in a cult, and he kinda needs to express his interest in a daughter who has some kinda creepy magic power without freaking himself or others out while the daughter is nonetheless pretty dtf. It can work, but it requires a little more finesse than your standard story.

4) Why not more fetishes?

Personal preference time here, but I think too many fetishes makes a game feel generic. Like you have the furry girl and the BDSM girl and the girl who likes anal and the step-whatever girl and...

Of course, as with most of these you can do it well. The Company is probably the best I've seen at this, where the player can clearly delineate what content they do and don't want to access and can the game will gate it based on the player having limited options in one playthrough and which optional stuff they decide to pick up, but can pretty much play the game as vanilla as they like with a decent amount of content. Again, it's just hard to balance and not many people making games here have a whole lot of experience making porn games to know how to balance it.

Bottom line: given the uneven implementation of Patreon's crackdown on incest, making the prospect of an incest game inherently risky; the relatively low number of hobbyist porn game devs versus the relatively high number of people using it as a desperately-needed side gig or main job who thereby can't risk losing their work if Patreon dumps them or an experiment doesn't work out; the relatively low number of seasoned developers who have previously cut their teeth making porn games and stories before versus nervous amateurs trying to just figure shit out and keep a few bucks coming in every month; and the fact that it really does matter a lot to the tension in a story whether the original version is written about two unrelated people having sex or two blood relatives fucking, no matter what people say about the issue; I don't think there's any way to fix this. We're in a wait-and-see period, and I don't expect that to change anytime soon. In other words, shit's fucked.

You're not by any means wrong to point any of this out, mind. But if the problem was simply that nobody noticed these issues, I think the indie porn game scene would be in a much better place right now than it actually is. Maybe try the Game Suggestions subforum? I don't hang out there much, but I'd imagine people could point you to the few exceptions that are doing novel things with incest games. It's by no means a real fix (since, as I said, I don't expect these issues to really change much until funding issues with incest games settle the fuck down), but it might help for now.

 

[DarthSeduction]

Yep. Common. As I see it, this is a side-effect of the current state of incest games re: patches. Game authors can sort of fake up a familial-ish relationship between two characters at the start of their game even if they're not related (two people act like mother-son, brother-sister, father-daughter even if they're not, and that's quite common IRL as well) but once they start having sex it becomes extremely relevant to the writing whether they're actually brother and sister or just roommates as to whether or not they can go public with their relationship or how hard it is for them to break out of the mindset of treating each other like family. Since IRL there's no real functional problem with rommates dating, unlike siblings, the incest-ish tension (even when a patch is applied, because those patches rarely go in and sprinkle in extra scenes and confrontations specific to incest themselves) just goes away and never comes back. They can occasionally refer to it, but it simply goes so strongly against the story the author is actually writing (in which nobody gives a shit whether roommates date or not) that there isn't a way to make the original relationship sensible again if they aren't actually related and previously acted like stereotypical family members.

Can you explain how exactly they're supposed to act? I don't really get what the complaint is because I don't see the behavior between a lover and a sibling, aside from sex, being all that different. I get that the taboo elements, worrying about being caught and the like should always be there, but that's not about behavior, it's about writing taboo. But I don't get that this is what is being referred to, and if it is, I'm not sure I agree, or maybe I just play less shit games.

I guess, thinking back to when I played Man of the House, both of your sister's stories involved a friend who didn't really care to comment on the fact that you were siblings, so I guess there are some that don't, but going through all my incest games, even the ones where incest is a small part of a much larger story, like Waifu Academy, the incest taboo remains central to the plot. Some of them are even well into their versions. Babysitter at 0.1.7, Sisterly Lust at 0.15, both still put a huge emphasis on the fact that your relationship is taboo. In fact, as of 0.1.6, you were hiding your relationship with your niece from several different people in Babysitter, and as of .15 SL you had a huge taboo tango with two of your sisters resulting in possible negative consequences, and also had an issue with your oldest sister still refusing to let people think you're dating.

Of all my games, I can't think of one that isn't playing up the taboo. Could they do better in some cases? Sure, but I don't think any of them have forgotten what's going on.

 

[gunderson]

Can you explain how exactly they're supposed to act? I don't really get what the complaint is because I don't see the behavior between a lover and a sibling, aside from sex, being all that different. I get that the taboo elements, worrying about being caught and the like should always be there, but that's not about behavior, it's about writing taboo. But I don't get that this is what is being referred to, and if it is, I'm not sure I agree, or maybe I just play less shit games.

I guess, thinking back to when I played Man of the House, both of your sister's stories involved a friend who didn't really care to comment on the fact that you were siblings, so I guess there are some that don't, but going through all my incest games, even the ones where incest is a small part of a much larger story, like Waifu Academy, the incest taboo remains central to the plot. Some of them are even well into their versions. Babysitter at 0.1.7, Sisterly Lust at 0.15, both still put a huge emphasis on the fact that your relationship is taboo. In fact, as of 0.1.6, you were hiding your relationship with your niece from several different people in Babysitter, and as of .15 SL you had a huge taboo tango with two of your sisters resulting in possible negative consequences, and also had an issue with your oldest sister still refusing to let people think you're dating.

Of all my games, I can't think of one that isn't playing up the taboo. Could they do better in some cases? Sure, but I don't think any of them have forgotten what's going on.

Isn't the preponderance of shit incest games what we're talking about, though? The OP didn't seem to be saying, "These are the best games that could ever be made, and if they just fixed these issues they'd be great." It seems more like, "Most incest games are shit, this is my take on some of the biggest story-related reasons why they're shit." Finding a few examples of games that aren't shit (or at least don't suffer from these specific problems) also doesn't take away from the OP's point that most of the ones being released are bad, or make their concerns invalid for ever trying new games that might be shitty.

As far as relatives acting like friends, sometimes? With some relatives? But when you're talking about fiction, if you really want to call up generic archetypes of familial relationships, we're talking about the format of things like Disney Channel shows or family movies or shows like Seventh Heaven/Dawson's Creek. Shit like that. Things that, granted, aren't exactly how real families operate, but are how people generally think about families. That's what people are usually talking about when they cite how families in fiction act. And that's what incest porn is playing with.

If your position, on the other hand, is that you've never seen any family movies or tv shows, that you've never seen family members act like stereotypical family members rather than friends in your entire life, then I think you're either lying or at the very least have a highly uncommon opinion on how family members relate to one another.

 

[DarthSeduction]

If your position, on the other hand, is that you've never seen any family movies or tv shows, that you've never seen family members act like stereotypical family members rather than friends in your entire life, then I think you're either lying or at the very least have a highly uncommon opinion on how family members relate to one another.

With another Christmas just having passed, I can say that my family isn't what I have seen on tv. I don't dread family gatherings, and I don't have a stereotypical racist uncle, or a family member that people just can't stand. Our family behaves in a friendly manner. We tell jokes and laugh, we tease one another, we play games, and just all around have a great time whenever we are together. I can't call my relationship with anyone in my family anything more than that of friends who happen to be related by blood.

As to television, aside from the highly adversarial relationships between siblings that I've never really related to, or the mom and dad that just care so much about their rebellious kids who are constantly getting into trouble, I don't know what you're talking about, and even in those cases, if you start fucking one of these people, that relationship is going to change. It's that simple.

 

[Only4You]

My first issue, and this is a big one, because it is something most games try to ignore (because it is easier that way), is that, just because two family members are in an incestuous relationship, doesn't mean they fall out of their original familial relationship. And if they do so, it can hardly be called incest, because, if suddenly a sister starts seeing his brother as boyfriend, and the brother sees her as his girlfriend, and all their interactions only reflect that relationship, where is the incest? Because their true relationships matter no more from the player's perspective.

Oo..kay... Judging by the discussion above, I think I need to clarify what I meant by "relationship" and "interactions" among family members, and its importance in an incest storyline. I understand that societal, cultural and even individual familial settings often play a major role in defining what the relationship among family members ought to be. For example, in US culture siblings are often just as close as close friends and children are more or less independent of their parents. Whereas in Indian culture, the relationship among siblings is very different from that among friends, elder brothers and sisters are often respected as guardians. Cousins are often seen as equivalent to siblings, actually they are referred to as brothers or sisters. But there is obviously some common traits in the relationship among family members regardless of the specific cultural or familial setting. These subtleties would not matter if the main focus of the story were not incest, in a normal story you could portray your sister just as a very close friend. But when the theme you are focusing on is incest, I feel like it is mandatory to show how your familial ties comes into play when you are also trying to build a sexual relationship. As W. Faulkner said, “The only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself”. It is the conflicts within a brother/sister when he/she feels sexually attracted to his/sibling that makes an incest story different from a vanilla romantic story, not just the feeling of Taboo. And if you think logically, there is always ought to be conflicts in such a setting. Even when a mother starts to get attracted to her grown up, independent son, she isn't going to simply forget about all those years she spent caring for her child.

Can you explain how exactly they're supposed to act? I don't really get what the complaint is because I don't see the behavior between a lover and a sibling, aside from sex, being all that different. I get that the taboo elements, worrying about being caught and the like should always be there, but that's not about behavior, it's about writing taboo. But I don't get that this is what is being referred to, and if it is, I'm not sure I agree, or maybe I just play less shit games.

And also, I don't believe that the relationship among siblings is just a little different from that of close friends, at least not always, no matter the cultural setting. More so, when there is a considerable age difference. I'm going to give an example from the movie "It" (2017), adapted from Stephen King's work, because right now I cannot think of a better example. In the starting scene you can see how much Bill cares for his little brother Georgie - even when he's sick he makes his little brother a boat. He's also concerned about his safety when he's going out in the thunderstorm. And Georgie looks up to his big brother, but at the same time fears him a little, as evidenced by his concern when he loses his boat. He also sees him as his protector/guardian, because he screams his name just before he dies. And after his death Bill breaks down completely, and cannot accept that he lost his little brother, that he couldn't protect him. Now, replace the little brother with a little sister. You see what I'm getting at? As far as I see it, familial relationships are always different from relationships outside of family, even though not apparent from superficial interactions. It is in human biology.

 

[DarthSeduction]

And also, I don't believe that the relationship among siblings is just a little different from that of close friends, at least not always, no matter the cultural setting. More so, when there is a considerable age difference. I'm going to give an example from the movie "It" (2017), adapted from Stephen King's work, because right now I cannot think of a better example. In the starting scene you can see how much Bill cares for his little brother Georgie - even when he's sick he makes his little brother a boat. He's also concerned about his safety when he's going out in the thunderstorm. And Georgie looks up to his big brother, but at the same time fears him a little, as evidenced by his concern when he loses his boat. He also sees him as his protector/guardian, because he screams his name just before he dies. And after his death Bill breaks down completely, and cannot accept that he lost his little brother, that he couldn't protect him. Now, replace the little brother with a little sister. You see what I'm getting at? As far as I see it, familial relationships are always different from relationships outside of family, even though not apparent from superficial interactions. It is in human biology.

Ok, personal info dump time. I have 5 younger siblings. 2 full biological siblings. 1 step brother. 2 half siblings. I'm the eldest, my younger brother, is 2.5 years younger than me. My little sister comes next, 10 years younger. My step brother is 6 months younger than her, my two half siblings come last, they're 20 and 21 years younger respectively.

Now, obviously because of just how steep the difference is, I don't really have a relationship with my half siblings. My other 3 siblings however, I do. The step brother I've known since he was 3, so it's not like he's a late addition to the family, he grew up right alongside our little sister. So when I say that I have more friendly relationships with my family, I include siblings that are much younger than me.

My sister, in particular, is the one I have the closest relationship with. When we are together, we are attached at the hip. She's often called a mini-me, for the amount she has in common with me. Her tastes are similar to mine, her attitude is similar to mine, etc. All of this is because when she was little our parents divorced. I was often responsible for her. Dad was working, mom had been the one to leave, and so I was the one who was left to take care of her. When she was younger I really did have that protective outlook on her, but I don't think she ever feared me. She was a good kid, so she didn't really have a reason to.

Now, adding sex to that relationship would change it. The way we are always together, even cuddly, would be perverted. However, I don't think it would change too much, because the two of us have always been capable of sharing an inside joke, or subtext related language. We can keep a secret, and we can keep that secret in the open.

As to internal torture, that should be addressed, but again, I feel most do. If they don't it's usually a noncon game, something where mind control or something similar is used. Most incest games make use of a stairway to heaven, gating further sexual content behind getting over this hurdle of the internal torture. Again, some games don't do this well, since I've already called out MotH, it's one I don't feel does, using grind rather than story to make a next step feel earned, but I really do feel it's the only one that isn't abandoned that actually is that bad.

I'm not saying there isn't more that could be done, personally I've made this a central plot point in my own incest game, but I still don't find that its missing form any of the major incest titles, at the very least, and the few it is missing from I blame lack of story in general. Like seriously, if Man of the House weren't an incest game, it would be just as dull, as still the girls do nothing on their own, and you grind for all the content.

 

[Only4You]

Now, adding sex to that relationship would change it. The way we are always together, even cuddly, would be perverted.

This is the sort of conflict I'm talking about. Even though nothing may change on the outside, your relationship would certainly transform into something different, interactions would get new meaning. Although you may hide it from the world you won't be able to hide it from yourself. However, most incest games don't address that. They just portray it as if there is no tension going on at all.

As to internal torture, that should be addressed, but again, I feel most do.

No, I don't think they do, and even if they do, they do so in some superficial and cliche manner. For example, "Oh no, I cannot think about my daughter that way!", or "I cannot do this, you're my son." bla bla. What do these words even mean, without any touch of context or background. And when they get over that inhibition, as if they forget what their relation used to be completely. How, do their new found sexual attraction nullify all their memories as a family? Or is the fact that a daughter is having sex with his father change the fact that he is still her father and she his daughter. I think they would be constantly reminded of their relationship as a father and daughter every time they do something sexual. What a game may try to do, is that it may add new meanings to their memories, implying that, they have always felt attracted to each other. Or maybe, it may show that sexual love is just another addition to the affection they have for each other. I need to be able to empathize with them, see thinks from their perspective, understand what they are feeling.

 

[HarveyD]

Your concerns mainly fall down to bad writing. Which shouldn't be surprising, none of the devs making Adult games, incest or othwerwise, are best selling authors. So there's going to be a lot of chaff amoung the wheat.

But I'm with DarthSeduction on saying I have no idea what you're talking about when you say you want to see them still act as family. Surely they do whenever in public. Their relation, whatever it may be, isn't a huge concern later on because they've gotten past that, that's how they're having sex to begin with.

 

[DarthSeduction]

I concede that they aren't cleverly written. Dialogue isn't well written in almost any game. Those few that do are relatively new, and there are plenty of other games coming out around us that are still bad. Yes, most game do the generic "I can't believe I'm doing x under condition y" method of directly stating the issue. Personally I'm attempting to avoid that, both in my incest game and in my non-incest title. Alexis, in my incest game, bases a lot of her objection to her own feelings on past events, in particular, she worries that by having feelings for her brother that she is just as bad as their father, who raped him. With my other title, I'm writing a scene now where a girl's kink is getting revealed in a rather public and embarrassing way, and rather than having her outright state it, I'm trying to show her inner turmoil through the art.

And when they get over that inhibition, as if they forget what their relation used to be completely. How, do their new found sexual attraction nullify all their memories as a family? Or is the fact that a daughter is having sex with his father change the fact that he is still her father and she his daughter. I think they would be constantly reminded of their relationship as a father and daughter every time they do something sexual. What a game may try to do, is that it may add new meanings to their memories, implying that, they have always felt attracted to each other. Or maybe, it may show that sexual love is just another addition to the affection they have for each other. I need to be able to empathize with them, see thinks from their perspective, understand what they are feeling.

I see what you're saying here now... I actually stopped halfway through this paragraph and had a rant prepared, but that's because your point wasn't getting across till you gave examples of what you think should be done.

I was thinking it was more of that TV character has to brood over something or else the show falls apart logic that pervades pretty much everything. Angel has to worry about his happiness, the flash has to blame himself for everything, Arrow has to blame himself for everything, Rachel and Ross can't be together, etc etc etc. And because I reject this kind of lazy conflict generation, I was really against what you were suggesting.

However, when it comes to the past, contextual feelings, etc, this actually bleeds into another of your points, the one about the characters not being proactive. Both stem from the same place. These characters aren't fleshed out. They don't have a past. There are no memories of childhood. As I said in my initial post, game designers don't make characters, they make archetypes. As a result, they can't do anything themselves that isn't thrust upon them by the writer. They don't have unique thoughts or experiences to draw from, just reactive personality quirks.

This problem, again, is not unique to incest. Very few games have put so much as a single though to what a character did before they were in this game. The ones that do tend to get a ton of praise, even if they jump the shark and introduce psychotic ninja nurses into the game.

What developers need to start doing is coming up with a setting, no matter where that setting is, time, place, etc. Then creating characters that fit said setting. I don't write a character without at least a paragraph of backstory. I have plot and character summaries for games that are 3 pages long and which I think are just stubs, waiting for me to come up with something more solid and breathe more life into it before I actually do them. Most people aren't willing to even do that. They say, little sister type, loves her brother, easy, and then follow a trope. Then they say, Older sister type, hates her brother, easy for everyone but her brother, and then follow a trope. Etc etc etc. They don't actually design characters. Just list traits and call it a character.

 

[Jashmyne]

One thing that you see in pretty much every incest game(not gonna claim I play them all but everyone I have played) is that they are all set in current times. Cellphones, high school, glancing at whatever relative that is driving the car and getting aroused etc etc.
I can understand that this is something that is familiar to the game creator and correct me if I'm wrong here, it is the easiest to get scenes for. So the result is that almost all games share the same aspects and unless they do something really special, it tends to be quite stale. Milfy City is a nice example of having the mother being the one desiring it or the wife of the MC's aunt wanting him to have sex with the aunt. Or A wife and mother where the MC is the mother that is prudish but slowly getting corrupted.

But wouldn't it be interesting if the game creator stepped out of their bubble I guess you can say and went back in time with his story. Ancient Egypt was ok with incest afterall, it was tradition for the pharoh to marry his sister, Tutankhamun was heavily inbred. Wouldn't that break the staleness where all of the sudden you are in a period of time where it wasn't taboo.
Ancient Rome, incest is taboo and frowned upon hence whenever they want to talk shit about an Empeor, he usually banged one of his sisters or his mother, if they actually did so or not will never be known.
Again, it would change things up.
Don't think I need to mention the Hapsburg Family.

Or be even more creative, go into the future, go into space. There are endless posibilities there.
Instead we pretty much see the same houses, the same shopping mall, the same schools over and over again.

 

[Nottravis]

Or be even more creative, go into the future, go into space. There are endless posibilities there.

*peeks in, coughs and looks shifty.*

 

[DarthSeduction]

Wouldn't that break the staleness where all of the sudden you are in a period of time where it wasn't taboo.
Ancient Rome, incest is taboo and frowned upon hence whenever they want to talk shit about an Empeor, he usually banged one of his sisters or his mother, if they actually did so or not will never be known.

Incest being taboo is a large part of why it's a kink in the first place. If there was nothing wrong with it people wouldn't be as likely to obsess over it.

But also, from a narrative stance, if you're going to place something in the past or future you should have a reason to do so other than "I'm kinda tired of seeing this story in modern times." If you're putting something in Rome or Egypt at their respective heights and you aren't making use of that to tell a more specific story, you're wasting your setting on a cheap gimmick.

This is even more true for someone using the future. You kinda need to justify a setting like that. Now, if you were telling some cyberpunk story, or an epic space opera and wanted to include incest as one of the elements of the larger narrative, then you could do that, but it wouldn't be "an incest game" it would be a space opera with incest, or a cyberpunk game with incest.

The modern based games are incest games first and foremost. They don't waste time taking the audience to an unfamiliar setting because they already have to spend time getting the audience on board with incest. Many of them fail at this, even for people like me who really like incest, but that's the point.

 

[Jashmyne]

Well naturally I mean that if you are going to use a different era then the story should reflect that era.
Just saying that many of the incests creators are limiting themselves and thus things are stale and will pretty much always have that feeling of staleness since it will always deal with a modern point of view.
If someone took their incest to a historical setting, would it be a historical VN with incest in it rather then Incest in a historical setting ? maybe but I don't necessarily see the problem with that if you tell a interesting story. Same with if taking the audience to a new setting, pretty sure they won't mind it if you do it properly.