Thoughts on stats, attributes, characteristics and skills in games(esp. RPG type games)

[megaplayboy10k]

I have played dozens of these games by now, and have noticed that quite a few of them utilize some sort of system for quantifying game or story relevant attributes like Charm, Affection, Lust, Depravity, Love, Dominance/Submission, and so forth. I have played tabletop RPGs and computer and console RPGs for a few decades now and so I have some thoughts about their utility, esp in these types of games.
First, I think that these stats and related skills have a few basic functions in these games:
1. Prerequisite stats--the MC must have achieved a certain level of ability in order to advance the storyline, try something with another character, or to acquire some new ability or skill
2. Target, threshold or trigger stats--these are generally stats possessed by the target(s) of the MC's affection or efforts of whatever sort. The MC must have raised the target's stat to a certain level in order to attempt or succeed with a particular action and/or advance the story line.
3. Task resolution stats--these are stats or skills used to perform specific tasks or types of tasks(combat, seduction, magic use, lockpicking, hacking, etc.), usually expressed as a percentage, possibly modified by the ease or difficulty of the task in question

Some games use more than one type of such stat. I think my general criticism of such stats, where I think devs falter sometimes, is as follows:
1. It's unclear what the stat does or is there for--how often is "agility" or "strength" going to come up in the game? Is my morality level really going to matter much? How?
2. It's unclear what the threshold number to be achieved is, or how to further advance the stat--how much do I need to raise her lust, trust or affection to get her to perform oral sex? What actions(dialogue, physical tasks, gift-giving, etc.) will raise her stat to the necessary level?
3. It's unclear what the "scale" or range for the stat is--is "100 affection" perfect, good, mediocre or bad? What's the ceiling?

I think one of the issues is devs "hiding the ball". They don't tell you what the stats are for, often enough, or what the "range" is(my default assumption is 1-10 or 1-100, usually based on percentages or threshold levels). Or when you achieve a target level, there's not enough of a change in the behavior of the targets/NPCs to let you know you've achieved something new.

Another issue is having stats the dev originally envisioned being useful but then abandoned later on.

Anyway, throwing this open to see what other people, devs and players alike, think about this topic.

 

[Shinneru]

I get where you're coming from. As much as I don't like easy games and being told exactly what to do, there are cases where it'd be nice to know my progress. I hate it when I think I am making some progress when in reality I actually don't, because stats/relationship progress is blocked behind some unknown wall. Like, I don't want to waste my time on something that's straight up useless (some kind of stat that may not come in handy) or on something that I can't actually achieve.

I am working on huge game right now and what I do is giving player option to read detailed tutorial/info about anything new that you encounter during game. Be it interaction with female characters, upgrading your stats, anything basically. If someone do not want to read that - sure, that's one's will, but I give option to do so.

EDIT: Also one more thing. Not knowing how my progress is going and seeing that making progress doesn't change almost anything in the game/character. makes me want to skip game's story and dialoques, because I want to get to the good part instead of wasting my time on something that's the same for hours.

 

[anne O'nymous]

I have played dozens of these games by now, and have noticed that quite a few of them utilize some sort of system for quantifying game or story relevant attributes like Charm, Affection, Lust, Depravity, Love, Dominance/Submission, and so forth.

There's two main reasons for this. Firstly, it is that it's an advanced feature, while games are made by authors who generally are far to be advanced games authors. Secondly there isn't enough content in the games for this to effectively be usable.

1. It's unclear what the stat does or is there for--how often is "agility" or "strength" going to come up in the game? Is my morality level really going to matter much? How?
2. It's unclear what the threshold number to be achieved is, or how to further advance the stat--how much do I need to raise her lust, trust or affection to get her to perform oral sex? What actions(dialogue, physical tasks, gift-giving, etc.) will raise her stat to the necessary level?

Er... You started by saying that you played many RPG during many decades, point me one that effectively works differently. The stats are a little less obfuscated, but you don't really know more. Take any table RPG, when you've more than few lines explaining a stat, it's because there's tons of examples telling you when they can be used and how to use them. As for their utility, you can pass a whole month campaign without using one a single time ; and you don't know it before the end of the said campaign.
It's a game, part of the pleasure come from the fact that you don't know what will be the best action. And it's role playing, so in fact you don't care about the right action, you perform the one you want and be ready to face the consequences. It's up to you to understand the character personality and how to achieve the best result according to it ; it's not the works of the author to tell you "choose this one if you want to go further".

Or when you achieve a target level, there's not enough of a change in the behavior of the targets/NPCs to let you know you've achieved something new.

This is the real problem. But as I said above, it's mostly because the authors aren't experienced enough ; it's also because the games use pre-rendered CGs.
The authors don't know how to correctly handle the changes, and to be honest there's few computer RPG where it's effectively done right. By example, most of the time in regular RPG the relation between the MC and any character have just three states (hate/neutral/love). Don't expect the indie authors of adult games to do better than the thousands of people working on AAA games.

Another issue is having stats the dev originally envisioned being useful but then abandoned later on.

Because there isn't enough content for them to be enjoyable. Lets say that you can't have the girl before you've 5 in charm. What do you do until you reach this level ?
You'll spam the "go to works" and "train my skill" buttons ? Boring as fuck ! And where's the adult content ? You'll go after the cheap whore to pass time ? Well, now there's adult content, but it's still boring since by definition the cheap whore have no personality to entertain you.
The game need something more. Something that can entertain the player while he wait for his skill to be high enough. It's not impossible, but it need more works, way more works. It's not the best game, but

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is an example of this. While you wait for the relationship with the girls to reach the next step, you go fight with them. The price is way less CGs, partly because rendering all the needed CG require too much time, and partly because working on the none adult part also require too much time.

 

[ZZ23]

In general I don't like those stats because it is pointless since most of these are not true game to begin with.
You need systems that can utilise those stats. Once you start using stats you need world to react to it.
But there is no world, it is not like you are playing baldurs gate.

 

[megaplayboy10k]

In general I don't like those stats because it is pointless since most of these are not true game to begin with.
You need systems that can utilise those stats. Once you start using stats you need world to react to it.
But there is no world, it is not like you are playing baldurs gate.

There's some truth to that. Stats in most VN games are kinda like a "progress bar", that tells you how far you've come and how much further you have to go.

 

[ZZ23]

@megaplayboy10k

Yeah, I noticed that some devs use such score systems to control what happens next but give option to player to see it.
But when it comes to VNs I don't see stats as anything but distraction. Good VNs just absorb you into story and you just
keep on clicking

 

[megaplayboy10k]

@megaplayboy10k

Yeah, I noticed that some devs use such score systems to control what happens next but give option to player to see it.
But when it comes to VNs I don't see stats as anything but distraction. Good VNs just absorb you into story and you just
keep on clicking

I think they can be helpful when the player gets stuck--"You need to corrupt her further/You need to get better at hacking/You are not yet charming enough to attempt this"--in the same way that hints like "I need a screwdriver to get this door open" are helpful.

 

[ZZ23]

@megaplayboy10k

Yeah but it should play out like in adventure game then, no need for RPG stats and such. I would rather go look around
and talk to characters and waste my time that way instead of girding some stat.

 

[Bitter Strawman]

They began to use stats because they are eager to make heavy choice-dependable routing.
However in development process they understand how many working hours each route requires and how little it actually brings to the game. And even worse - outcomes multiply. 1 choice = 2 possible outcomes, 2 choices = 4 possible outcomes. It's difficult to create those, especially if biggest part of audience will play only one route because of lack of time or desire.
Therefore they abandon this idea.

 

[Bitter Strawman]

Talking about stats that doesn't end up in routing - yeah, that is possible.
However I doubt adult games need gameplay that complicated.
Let's take Haydee. It has pretty advanced gameplay. But how many people do actually play that game because of gameplay?

 

[smut]

Well, I like easy games as opposed to many others

What I mean is I like to know when my actions had an effect, and when it didn't. I like, when offered a choice, to know if it has significant impacts on the story. Because I will only replay a really tiny amout of games, and when I play it the first time I want a good experience (not the optimal or best necessarily, but not far from). Lots of creators are not experienced enough to balance this. I would recommend to start out with more of a visual novel with few stats and choices for those that are making their first game, at least if they want people to like it and need the recognition/attention/money. More people will like it if they understand it and enjoy it and are not confused.

 

[Fliptoynk]

I say
When the devs wanna use str, agi, int, etc. in an adult game, they should affect the progress the game in many many ways other than swordplay/skills/gear requirement like, for example when you wanna enter a stronghold, either you ram the gate (str), or traverse the wall(agi), or teleport(int). That's for multiple outcomes and/or endings. Of course, either of these progression will have benefits and consequences altogether. Neither is best nor worst.

Each stat makes different ways to court an npc either by being a personal shopping cart(str), a sweet talker(int), or a master foreplayer(agi), but can't be all-around man and you can't win every single damsels you see... yet. They have their own preferrences. After you win your first handjob, you'll have to grind for the other stats as you need them to court her in a different way or else... She will be jaded and you'll be ntr'ed by a competitor. Of course you have the option to win her back for blowjob, or better yet, double penetrate her then back to square 1 with another damsel that favors your newly grinded stat. That makes a game longer and its replayability value bigger.

Lust/admiration points? If you'll make the players grind for them over an over again with same ole routine then pfft forget it. How about this:
The game has leading lady(ies).. the queen/princess. Their lust/admiration will increase by hearsays(mc's title). The players will grind away to achieve titles.
Example:
Champion - admiration + 2 for princess minus lust for milf queen.
Womanizer - lust + 2 for milf queen (minus admiration for the prude princess)
Strategist - admiration+1 lust+1 (vanilla)

And when you finally meet the leading lady and made your advances, the sex scenes will vary between lust/admiration points either vanilla/dom/sub.... Or zero because the mc is a womanizer and the princess is prude

 

[xenomorph7510]

Because there isn't enough content for them to be enjoyable. Lets say that you can't have the girl before you've 5 in charm. What do you do until you reach this level ?
You'll spam the "go to works" and "train my skill" buttons ? Boring as fuck ! And where's the adult content ? You'll go after the cheap whore to pass time ? Well, now there's adult content, but it's still boring since by definition the cheap whore have no personality to entertain you.
The game need something more. Something that can entertain the player while he wait for his skill to be high enough. It's not impossible, but it need more works, way more works. It's not the best game, but

You must be registered to see the links

is an example of this. While you wait for the relationship with the girls to reach the next step, you go fight with them. The price is way less CGs, partly because rendering all the needed CG require too much time, and partly because working on the none adult part also require too much time.

I often wonder why devs whether AAA or indie don't do more combat sex in these games to stretch adult content? I'm just asking you since you seem to have a good idea of what it takes to develop adult games and rpg's. I've played some tabletop rpgs. I've played a ton of rpg video games since the mid 80's. I'm a new comer when it comes to adult rpgs.

One thing you mentioned that I want to know more about is the time it takes to render CG's. I imagine the time may depend on the engine and whatever program the dev is using, but what would be a reasonable time on average to make a CG? I imagine developing more in game systems would be time and resource consuming. Wouldn't developing mini games or combat systems that can use some of the code that's already been developed help stretch the downtime between adult CG's?

So I guess the best question of all would be, since you know about some of the challenges associated with developing these games, how would you go about solving the problems you mentioned in your post?

 

[freedom.call]

I don't mind various stats/levels/blabla.

What I DO mind is having to be perfect, if that's the case please supply walkthrough. I'm really bad at figuring out things in games and the game is pretty much immediately deleted (why would ANY dev not want their game to be played, completed and loved by as many as possible?)

Peace.

 

[anne O'nymous]

I often wonder why devs whether AAA or indie don't do more combat sex in these games to stretch adult content?

Because it's way to difficult to do it properly. Look at

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by example. There's a "combat sex" in it, and it's still a work in progress more or less 6 months after its introduction. And still it's something really simple. Each characters is consenting, there's only two basic states (dominant/romantic), few spots (belly button, ass cheek, tits, nipples, vagina, anus and mouth) and no sex positions. Yet, it need too much works.
Here, you need to work action by action. A character can like it or dislike it. The repetition can imply a liking or lead to disgust. This while the moment you do it can change everything. And each one of these actions imply a change in the global liking, so influence the reaction to the other actions.
By example, your girl can dislike that you smack her ass. But who know, perhaps that if you start to do it when she's near to climax, she can feel it otherwise and start to like it. Then, she can discover a tendency for submission and let you pinch her nipples, which will make this tendency for submission grow further and so open more gates. Same for anal. If you start directly in her ass, she'll cut your nuts. But perhaps that you can use her ass to finish her. And, here again, who know, perhaps that after some times, you'll be able to start in her ass and only do it... Or it can be the total opposite, because you did it wrong, enforcing her disgust instead of making her liking grow.

All this need to be took in count but also shown in a way or another. This imply more CG and way more dialog lines.

One thing you mentioned that I want to know more about is the time it takes to render CG's. I imagine the time may depend on the engine and whatever program the dev is using, but what would be a reasonable time on average to make a CG?

It also depend of the complexity of the scene, but assuming that the average rendering time is around 30 minutes is probably a right guess. But to this, you need to add from 1 hour to a full day, for the scene building ; once again depending of its complexity.
Keeping "combat sex" as base, each CG probably need at least 20 minutes of building ; assuming you already past many time to build the base scene. The expression need to be right according to the actual mood and liking/disliking. This while the body position need to be both right but also different enough to any other position that can be used before it and after it ; else the player will not see the difference and the scene is totally useless.
So, to do it right with something as basic as the "combat sex" in Pact with a witch, you can easily assume a full week of works just for the CG. This for a scene that will last 30 minutes or less, and taking in count that probably more than half of the CG will not be seen, because they correspond to situations not crossed by this particular player.

This said, if it's real time 3D, it can worth the time needed. Mostly because the animations/poses are more basic. They can be reused for each girls, don't depend of what she looks like/wear at this time, nor to where they are. This isn't the case with pre-rendered CG where, obviously, you'll need a CG by position, this for each girl, and this for each variation of her actual look and clothes. Then do the same for each possible location.
For something really basic, two positions (missionary, doggy style), with two possibilities of location (her bed, yours), no foreplay or "touching", and only two moods (like, dislike), this with a single girl that is always naked and only one CG to describe the scene, it's already 8 CGs that must be done. Then, for each "touching" feature you add, you need to add 16 CGs (because she can like the position, but dislike the "touching", like and like, dislike and like, dislike and dislike).
So, with something this basic, if you offer the possibility to touch her boobs, smack her ass and play with her nipples, boom you're already over the 50 CGs. It's not impossible, but it need a team and to really want to do it, because you'll do nothing else for a really long time.

I imagine developing more in game systems would be time and resource consuming. Wouldn't developing mini games or combat systems that can use some of the code that's already been developed help stretch the downtime between adult CG's?

It can help yes. The author of Pact with a Witch could probably reuse it once it's finished. It need to be took in count from the start, because all girls are different and like/dislike different things at different moments, but it's possible.
Yet, remember, this particular "combat sex" is in devel since 6 months and still not finished... Done at full time with someone who's effectively coder, it would still probably need a full month to be finished. Few authors are ready for this, unless it's the main part of their game mechanism.

So I guess the best question of all would be, since you know about some of the challenges associated with developing these games, how would you go about solving the problems you mentioned in your post?

Not use 3D pre-rendered CG It's possible (to the price of many works) to have 3D pre-rendered CG and still limit the number of sprites. But you'll still need to render (at least partially) each scene to achieve this.
It's better to do it with real time 3D (I already explained why above), or to go with 2D puppet. Each part of the body is independent, and you build the scene in the fly.

 

[W65]

BF doesn't have to be complicated, necessarily. There're plenty of JP games that more or less literally replace the RPG Maker combat system's swords and magic with penises and teasing. I mean, the system could be as simple or as complicated as the dev wants to make it.

Then again, JP games don't do the release-treadmill thing, so they do their balancing behind the scenes. Maybe it takes months, too, but somehow I doubt it. Then again AGAIN, a person not using a game making system would have to do that all from scratch anyhow, and any kind of game balance isn't easy.

(Also, most JP games don't illustrate the MC, don't illustrate every sex action, and sometimes handwave the sex interactions with anonymous cut-ins or other dumb tricks. The most blatant example of the latter I remember was that Nipurheim game that literally did the combat sex behind a little bush, so that the dev didn't have to draw it. I understand the necessity of keeping art workload reasonable, but don't do it in a way that ends up being a disappointing cocktease.)

 

[xenomorph7510]

W65 quote: (Also, most JP games don't illustrate the MC, don't illustrate every sex action, and sometimes handwave the sex interactions with anonymous cut-ins or other dumb tricks. The most blatant example of the latter I remember was that Nipurheim game that literally did the combat sex behind a little bush, so that the dev didn't have to draw it. I understand the necessity of keeping art workload reasonable, but don't do it in a way that ends up being a disappointing cocktease.)[/QUOTE]

(sorry messed up the link to your quote but I have edited to site you as the source).

From the games I've played and the one you mention in particular, I know what you mean. Nipurheim was disappointing in that sense. anne O' nymous makes lots of good points. I guess the main reason these games are disappointing is because the main resource, time in this case, is not properly taken into account. More specifically I read an article (forget which gaming news source) talked about the concept of man months in developing. How many months does it take to reach the developing goal given the staff they have in a month. Simplified of course, yet they take into account how many personnel will be involved. How many in each department with expertise in given field... etc. That's for AAA gaming, but the concept can still be applied on a small scale.

I think the main thing that needs to happen with these projects is to 1. Find a way to render these CG faster (ideal but most difficult). 2. combine these small indie teams into larger units and make less volume of games and better quality. That said 2 is easier said than done. All of these indie developers have their own dreams in regard to what game they want to make. Combining teams will stop many of these indie devs vision of what their ideal game will be, causing potential resistance to a joint effort. I mention these things because while I think your response about the rendering of CG was a great point, my question was not broad enough. I don't just mean what would you do with CG in these games. My question should have been what strategy would you use if you were a developer.

So my question now, is what strategy would you use to develop your own indie game?

 

[anne O'nymous]

More specifically I read an article (forget which gaming news source) talked about the concept of man months in developing. How many months does it take to reach the developing goal given the staff they have in a month. Simplified of course, yet they take into account how many personnel will be involved. How many in each department with expertise in given field... etc. That's for AAA gaming, but the concept can still be applied on a small scale.

It's even more valid for small scale, because the works can't be split. Assuming that there's someone dedicated to coding, while he will works on the "combat sex" system, he will not works on anything else. This imply that your coder can't go for something too time consuming, unless he really have nothing else to do. But in fact most of the adult games are made by a single person, so the notion of times is even more important. In the end and globally speaking, if it need more than a week, then it's done only if it's something that will be used way later and can be done little by little.

So my question now, is what strategy would you use to develop your own indie game?

The same that I used when I was admin. Like any good admin, I'm lazy in a strange way, I can pass days to works on something because when it will be done, it will make me gain one minutes of works.
Automating is the key when you want free time, and you need it when you develop an indie game. This simply because you never know when you'll be stuck because of the code, because of a scene more difficult to build, or because of a sudden lack of imagination. So, what need to be done is to create a lot of tools to handle as much as possible of the side tasks.
They don't need to be perfect, and anyway they can't do all the works for you. But each minute you'll gain because you have them, is a minute that you'll be able to spend on something else related to your game. Hey, you can even perhaps have a life while making the game

 

[xenomorph7510]

I'm glad I asked you. Seems logical and next time I a dev asks me what I think about time issues I'll take a page out of your book.